HDMI Audio Transmission for Blu-ray and HD DVD

[Seth=L]

Potentially there is no difference for HD DVD. HD DVD discs authored as Advanced Content require the audio to be decoded and mixed. Presently that process occurs in-player. In BD, there is also little to no difference, since the decoders in the players are often the same as the decoders in the receivers or processors.

This is what I like to hear, this should be widely public on the forum, like a big bulletin when you log in.

[admin]

Ever wonder how the new surround formats are transmitted from the next generation DVD players to the receiver/processor? Our quick interview session with Craig Eggers from Dolby Labs helps shed some light on this subject. Check out this FAQ to learn about HDMI audio transmission and the future for HDMI ver. 1.3 enabled receivers and processors.


Discuss "HDMI Audio Transmission for Blu-ray and HD DVD" here. Read the article.

[Chuck V]

That sounds great, no need to get panic attacs if your receiver don't have 1.3.

One will do fine with 1.1 in general, but there is cases where this don't work well if you want 7.1 HD audio.

/Chuck

[FoolintheRain]

There are two advantages I can think of for the receiver to be receiving the new audio codecs over HDMI, although not really a reason to actually purchase a new receiver.

1) The ability to take a 5.1 soundtrack in any of the new codecs (DD+, DDTrueHD, DTS-HD) and apply DDPLIIx or DTS NEO:6 to expand it to a 7.1 speaker setup. I do this with all my regular DVDs that are 5.1 right now so I can enjoy a more immersive soundfield. I know its not true 7.1, its matrixed (please don't start that argument), but it is an advantage to me to use all my speakers.

I currently do the following with DVDs to use all my 7.1 speakers:

a) if 5.1 DTS or DD, I apply DDPLIIx or DTS NEO:6 to utilize my 2 rears in a stereo (DDPLIIx) or mono (DTS NEO:6) sense.
b) if DTS-ES or DD-EX obviously the 2 rears are already being used in a mono sense

2) The ability to use 6.1 or 7.1 soundtracks in any of the new codecs (DD+, DDTrueHD, DTS-HD). Right now, none of the HD DVD players have 7.1 analog outs (only 5.1 analog outs) and maybe 1 BD player has 7.1 outs. So unless the info is passed via HDMI to a compatible receiver you cannot enjoy the entire 7.1 or 6.1 soundtrack. There are VERY few titles with 6.1 and none with 7.1 YET, but they are coming.

Simply using Coax/Toslink only partially solves the problem. You would get the 6.1 or 7.1 info, but it would be in downconverted to legacy DD or DTS b/c the new codecs can't be sent over Coax/Toslink.

So there are 2 advantages to the Receiver having the decoding capabilities. They aren't huge, but they are there. I'm surprised the Dolby guy didn't mention them at all.

Number 2 would go away if more players added 7.1 analog outs (or enabled a way to remap exhisting 5.1 analog outs and the 2.0 stereo outs via fw upgrades). I do think this is possible, but possibly unlikely.

Number 1 would go away only if the above was done AND the players added DDPLIIx decoding, DD-EX decoding, DTS-ES decoding, DTS NEO:6 decoding...I don't see that happening. I don't believe any regular DVD players did any of these, so I don't see why HD DVD nor BD players would take on the cost of adding them.

[westcott]

Up until now, no one really panicked if they did not have a receiver with the latest video connections. As we all know, standards change and as long as we could pass audio signals, most people did not care.

But, it seems that HD audio is following the same copy protection scheme of video, and that is very disconcerting.

I would be perfectly happy buying an HDMI switcher for video and never have to worry about whether or not my AV reciever is compatible.

Well, it seems that in their infinite wisdom, HD DVD and BR have decided that we will not be getting our HD audio any other way.

I think this is a terrible decision and is going to force many people to upgrade receivers far more frequently or not al all!!! This last scenario could kill any potentional HD audio may have had of coming back to life, IMO.

The industry has always managed to ignore the past and continue to enjoy shooting themselves in the foot. No wonder the music industry is losing billions of dollars.

P.S. Analog connections do not count. We are in the 21 century, aren't we?

[Chuck V]

FoolintheRain.

There are disadvantages having the receiver doing the decoding. For instance, if the playes does not do the decoding, then you won't be able to enyoj the "advanced" HD-DVD discs out there to a full degree. And the BluRay discs will probably get "advanced" soon and then the BR players have to do the decoding as well.

The playes as far as I know has to do the decoding, then sending via HDMI (1.3) to the receiver in PCM.

/Chuck

[FoolintheRain]

I'm not saying you are wrong, but what "advanced" features are you talking about that would affect sound??? And to clarify, I'm not rushing out to buy a new receiver. I was simply listing 2 advantages to having audio sent to the receiver via HDMI and letting the receiver decode, that's all.

I personally could care less about extra features. I just want a movie that looks and sounds great. Can you prove either of my 2 advantages wrong?

I currently have Denon 3805, Denon 3910, Tosh XA1. I use DenonLink from the 3910 to the 3805 for CD, DVD, DVD-A, SACD. I use analog 5.1 outs from XA1 to the 3805. I am completely happy with this setup. For video I have the 3910 going to my projector via DVI and I have the XA1 going to my projector via componant (thru receiver b./c have HD OTA box and Nintendo Wii also via componant).

Perhaps if I have the player decode the audio and then send it over HDMI to the receiver it would take care of both of my listed advantages (I could add DDPLIIx or NEO:6 and I could enjoy 6.1 and 7.1 HiDef audio), but since I don't have an HDMI receiver, I can't test that theory out. If that IS the case, then yeah, there is no reason to have the decoding done in the receiver.

My personal opinion is it was a very good idea to include decoding as mandatory on the HD DVD players as all anyone needs to enjoy is 5.1 analog ins on their receiver. HDMI is an added bonus.

I'm just saying in my 2 examples I could see the benefit (icing on the cake if you will). I miss my rear speakers when watching my HD DVD collection. I don't really want a new receiver but that's really the only way I could utilize my rear speakers for 5.1 discs (unless I want downrezzed audio over toslink/coax). Perhaps Tosh will remap my analog outs/stereo outs for 6.1 and 7.1 discs, who knows.

[gene]

1) The ability to take a 5.1 soundtrack in any of the new codecs (DD+, DDTrueHD, DTS-HD) and apply DDPLIIx or DTS NEO:6 to expand it to a 7.1 speaker setup. I do this with all my regular DVDs that are 5.1 right now so I can enjoy a more immersive soundfield. I know its not true 7.1, its matrixed (please don't start that argument), but it is an advantage to me to use all my speakers.

You can do that now with the multi channel PCM signal via HDMI to the receiver as I did in my Yamaha RX-V2700 review.

[MACCA350]

Just to add to what Gene said, here is an excerpt from the HDMI FAQ's:

Q: Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or BluRay players?

No. The Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digita Plus, and DTS-HS Master Audio can be decoded by the playback device into multi-channel Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) digital audio streams, which is an audio format standard that can be sent over any version of HDMI. In fact, all versions of HDMI can support up to 8 channels of PCM audio at 192kHz, 24 bits per samples.

Now to the 'Advanced content' thing.
All HD-DVD discs that are produced are mastered as 'advanced content'(HDI)

Many Blu-ray discs that are produced now(it is believed this will increase to ALL once the Java profile comes online) are mastered as 'profile 1.1'(or higher)

What are they:
Here is a breif summery of HD-DVD's 'advanced content'(HDI)

High Definition Advanced Content is where the difference really lies. HD DVD Advanced Content is no more DVD than VHS is to DVD. It is a totally new and a very complex ball game. First is its ability to interact on many different levels.

The authoring platform is called HDI for High Definition Interactivity. Invented by the Disney studios and Microsoft it is more akin to the HTML environment for web development. It is really a whole new way of writing code and code writing is what the game is all about.

Whether it is picture in picture or “floating” popup menus the authoring process begins with the writing of a computer program that’s one purpose is to play your HD video on a DVD disc. This is where the majority of the “authoring” cost lie. Until you see it, you won’t understand how the new features of HD DVD really make a DVD presentation shine like never before. It is simply beautiful, albeit somewhat expensive.

Here is a summery of Blu-ray's profiles:

The BD-ROM specification defines four profiles of Blu-ray players. All video-based profiles are required to have a full implementation of BD-J.

1.0

This is the basic profile that all current Blu-ray players (as of March 2007) are based on. Players based on this profile are only required to have 64 KBof application data area storage, which is typically used for bookmarks and other preference storage[2]. Most players have more than the minimum required 64KB.

1.1 (mandatory November 2007)

Profile 1.1 adds a secondary video decoder (for PIP), secondary audio (for commentary) and local storage (for storing audio/video and title updates) of 256 MB. Compliance with this profile will be mandatory for player models introduced to the market after October 31, 2007[3], but existing products will be unaffected. No players compliant with this profile have been announced or released.

Some profile 1.0 players may be upgradeable via firmware update to profile 1.1. When software authored with interactive features dependent on Profile 1.1 hardware capabilities are played on profile 1.0 players some features may not be available or may offer limited capability (i.e. director commentary may provide only audio rather than audio and video). Profile 1.0 players will still be able to play the main feature of the disc, however.

2.0 (BD-Live)

Profile 2, also known as BD-Live, adds network connectivity to the list of mandatory functions and increases mandatory local storage capability to one GB. No released players have been announced as compatible with this profile. However it has been speculated that the PS3 will be upgradeable to this profile.

All this Advanced Content stuff is what the high definition formats are all about. In addition to the HD picture and the lossless sound you get a plethora of interactive options.

cheers

[Chuck V]

I'm not saying you are wrong, but what "advanced" features are you talking about that would affect sound??? And to clarify, I'm not rushing out to buy a new receiver. I was simply listing 2 advantages to having audio sent to the receiver via HDMI and letting the receiver decode, that's all.

With that approach you won't get any HD-sound at all as I see it, because all the HD-DVD's as "advanced content" (and probably all BR-discs soon) as the above poster nicely wrote.

Sending the uncoded signal ("HD-sound") to the receiver is a bad thing from my view,

/Chuck