Obama wins Nobel Peace Prize?!?! [Archive] - Audioholics Home Theater Forums

itschris

10-09-2009, 12:08 PM

I think the verbiage was quite clear from the committee... "... awarded for ... his effort.."

He clearly did not win this award for anything he has actually done, only full on media blitz of what he wants to do. I mean really, who doesn't want world peace. Wishing for it and actually accomplishing somehing in regards to it are two very different things.

What is really upsetting is that none of the "mainstream" media has said much about the runner up. Read his story and then ask yourself if Obama should even be on the same voting card.

This is less about Obama then the politicising and cheapening of a most prestigious award. But then again, wasn't Yassar Arafat a winner?

EDIT - that last comment is not comparing him or suggesting anything other than how dubious the awards results can actually be.

rnatalli

10-09-2009, 12:11 PM

I don't believe he deserved it, but it's nice it went to an American.

JerryLove

10-09-2009, 12:13 PM

I hope he lives up to his billing, but what has he done? Not been Bush?

I'm on the fence. I realize that this was a deliberate choice by the Nobel committee. They wanted to use the prizes in a way that would have more impact on the world: and so are trying to draw attention to people who are making changes rather than those who already have. I can see where they are coming from, but don't know if I agree with them or not.

"[The Committee] rejected the notion that Obama had been recognized prematurely for his efforts and said the committee wanted to promote the president just as it had Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990 in his efforts to open up the Soviet Union.

'His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population,' it said."

In fairness, although little has been achieved thusfar in terms of true results, Obama has a far-reaching diplomatic policy that's engaged around the world.

Quickley17

10-09-2009, 12:17 PM

Maybe someone can answer this... Why does the prize have to go to a person? Why can't the World Food Programme win the Nobel Peace Prize?

Chu Gai

10-09-2009, 12:22 PM

It's been awarded to organizations before.

Quickley17

10-09-2009, 12:28 PM

Ah yes, I see that now. A long time ago, mostly red cross related things, now UN related things. In keeping with that theme, WFP for NPP 2k10!

Chu Gai

10-09-2009, 12:34 PM

I vote for birth control.

lsiberian

10-09-2009, 12:56 PM

Not been Bush?

I'm on the fence. I realize that this was a deliberate choice by the Nobel committee. They wanted to use the prizes in a way that would have more impact on the world: and so are trying to draw attention to people who are making changes rather than those who already have. I can see where they are coming from, but don't know if I agree with them or not.

"[The Committee] rejected the notion that Obama had been recognized prematurely for his efforts and said the committee wanted to promote the president just as it had Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990 in his efforts to open up the Soviet Union.

'His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population,' it said."

In fairness, although little has been achieved thusfar in terms of true results, Obama has a far-reaching diplomatic policy that's engaged around the world.

In fairness Bush was fairly succesful except in Iraq which spilled over into everything else. He made a big mistake in how he handled Iraq, but what else did he do that was so bad? Obama has a few years to mess up like that too

Obama followed the same economic policies as Bush in trying to bring the economy back too. Don't get me wrong they are very different people with very different goals. Still not being someone else is not a goal or accomplishment. Bringing Iran to no longer pursue nuclear weapons would be an achievement.

tcarcio

10-09-2009, 01:21 PM

droht

10-09-2009, 01:38 PM

In fairness Bush was fairly succesful except in Iraq which spilled over into everything else. He made a big mistake in how he handled Iraq, but what else did he do that was so bad? Obama has a few years to mess up like that too

Obama followed the same economic policies as Bush in trying to bring the economy back too. Don't get me wrong they are very different people with very different goals. Still not being someone else is not a goal or accomplishment. Bringing Iran to no longer pursue nuclear weapons would be an achievement.

All I can say to this is "NO". Although I do agree that not being someone else is not an accomplishment. I also tend to agree, with other posters, that Obama should not have won the award. I think the award should have gone to the American people, for finally removing their collective heads from their collective butts long enough to elect someone who is not utterly and completely clueless and whose actions are not a threat to world peace. The monetary prize could go to the Red Cross or something. That is the message that needs to be sent.

droht

10-09-2009, 01:41 PM

I vote for birth control.

I can just see the reference to the Nobel Peace Prize in future Trojan ads...

gmichael

10-09-2009, 01:43 PM

Maybe now that he has won the award, he will want to step up and do something extra to have earned it. Hopefully, this is something that will motivate him to do great things.

lsiberian

10-09-2009, 02:40 PM

utterly and completely clueless.

So I guess you believe Bush wasn't evil he was just ignorant?

I don't think he was clueless though. He was inexperienced in foreign affairs, but many Americans are clueless when it comes to the world. On the domestic front I think he was much stronger. The economy is a cyclical thing largely so blaming any one person for it is silly in my view. I don't think a person's popularity or lack of popularity is a true evaluation of their contributions to the world. The war was mismanaged, but Bush did liberate Iraq from Saddam. So he wasn't a total loss.

Sweeping generalizations can lead to illogical evaluation of situations. Iraq had it's good points too.

Obama is in many ways Bush's opposite I see him as strong in foreign affairs and weaker on the domestic front. Healthcare reform his main domestic aim has been a failure so far, but perhaps in time it will happen. Still the situation is dire in my view and something must be done.

I'm glad to see us get back on the right foot with other nations. I pray the relationships improve a lot. Mideast peace seems like a pipe dream though. I've met both sides and neither seems willing to budge even at the cost of death.

Matt34

10-09-2009, 02:42 PM

Many observers were shocked by the unexpected choice so early in the Obama presidency, which began less than two weeks before the Feb. 1 nomination deadline and has yet to yield concrete achievements in peacemaking.

It's a farce IMO, they based their decision on his first two weeks of presidency.

...but hey, if Al Gore can win one for lining his pockets by turning natural climate fluctuation into mass global warming hysteria, no one else will really surprises me.

Buckeye_Nut

10-09-2009, 02:48 PM

Buckeye_Nut

10-09-2009, 03:12 PM

This is less about Obama then the politicising and cheapening of a most prestigious award. But then again, wasn't Yassar Arafat a winner?

It should go without saying, this award has been degraded to a 'cheap b!tch' award status many years ago.

Yes....Yassir....I mean YEs...that Arafat Terrorist leader did win this award too.

Buckeye_Nut

10-09-2009, 03:18 PM

It's a farce IMO, they based their decision on his first two weeks of presidency.

...but hey, if Al Gore can win one for lining his pockets by turning natural climate fluctuation into mass global warming hysteria, no one else will really surprises me.

LOL...pretty soon the Al Gore types will be pushing for the very same "Big Government" taxing solutions to stop the current cooling trend.

darien87

10-09-2009, 03:25 PM

I guess he's not opposed to them when their in his favor. :p;);):D

Yeah, I only hate the ones I don't start. :p

dougg

10-09-2009, 05:30 PM

We should go ahead and give the Next Olympic Golds on the Perception that they will win anyway, no Games needed. Thats My Take.
A boost to His Credibility, what a Joke. The Rogue Countries we seek Peace, will think nothing of it.
Doug S.

highfigh

10-09-2009, 05:46 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_nobel_peace

I'm surprised Buckeye Nut or one of the other Obama-haters hasn't commented on this yet. Personally I think it's a little early to be giving the man awards, but this seems to prove that he's definitley making strides towards improving the U.S.'s standing in the rest of the world.

Come on, ya know it's killin' ya! :D

As opposed to paying him to not send more troops to Afghanistan or oppose Iran's nuclear ambitions? He was nominated less than two weeks into his presidency- he had done nothing to deserve this and it's only his prize because they hope it will bring good things. Everyone else has gotten theirs for what they did, not what they might do.

This award means nothing. Look at who is in the committee.

croseiv

10-09-2009, 05:58 PM

It just proves to me that those awards don't really mean much. I think it was a little premature really. They should have at least waited until he actually did something to earn it.

HDPCsound

10-09-2009, 06:28 PM

It just proves to me that those awards don't really mean much. I think it was a little premature really. They should have at least waited until he actually did something to earn it.

I have to second that, he should made some efforts to get it.

Xargos

10-09-2009, 07:11 PM

...but hey, if Al Gore can win one for lining his pockets by turning natural climate fluctuation into mass global warming hysteria, no one else will really surprises me.

Way to try to bait people into a flame war. This has nothing at all to do with the post, but hey, if you insist.

Global warming is bigger than the normal climate fluctuation when you actually look at the studies. I only pray that people stop burying their heads in the sand and actually at least take a chance on trying to help the situation.

Buckeye_Nut

10-09-2009, 07:42 PM

Just Like the last president winner.......

Another 1 term schmuck........
:p

mtrycrafts

10-09-2009, 07:42 PM

Aren't you the one who complained about political threads? :confused:

Did he? Close it down then and delete it pronto ;):D Where are the mods when you need them johnny on the spot:D

Matt34

10-09-2009, 08:40 PM

Way to try to bait people into a flame war. This has nothing at all to do with the post, but hey, if you insist.

Global warming is bigger than the normal climate fluctuation when you actually look at the studies. I only pray that people stop burying their heads in the sand and actually at least take a chance on trying to help the situation.

I'm not baiting anyone, just showing past winners weren't very deserving either i.e. Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, yasser arafat. Lighten up francis.

Xargos

10-09-2009, 08:45 PM

I'm not baiting anyone, just showing past winners weren't very deserving either i.e. Al Gore, Jimmy Carter, yasser arafat. Lighten up francis.

All I did was point out that the whole global warming thing has nothing to do with Obama or his winning, which is what this thread is about. There is nothing for me to lighten up about.

Matt34

10-09-2009, 08:48 PM

All I did was point out that the whole global warming thing has nothing to do with Obama or his winning, which is what this thread is about. There is nothing for me to lighten up about.

You noticed your the only one that commented on it, right? It was an example of another lame duck winning the NPP.

Xargos

10-09-2009, 08:52 PM

You noticed your the only one that commented on it, right? It was an example of another lame duck winning the NPP.

Nothing has proven Obama is a lame duck. That is nothing more than the opinion that some have. I thought Bush was a lame duck after his first term, but since he had a second one that means I was wrong.

Matt34

10-09-2009, 09:00 PM

Nothing has proven Obama is a lame duck. That is nothing more than the opinion that some have. I thought Bush was a lame duck after his first term, but since he had a second one that means I was wrong.

What has Obama done in the first two weeks of presidency to win the NPP? MLK Jr. worked for years to advance civil equalities of minorities before being awarded the NPP. It's a slap in the face to the ones that have actually done something to deserve it, not by just being a charismatic rock star.

Matt34

10-09-2009, 09:17 PM

I didn't read anywhere that the committee had to restrict itself to the person's accomplishments at the date that their name was submitted... Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone, using their criteria, that has done more for "fraternity between nations" this year.

Well, like I said, it's a farce and will continue to be so if they keep nominating people by "what they might do". Remember, Obama was only in office for 12 days before the February 1st nomination deadline.

Unlike the other Nobel Prizes, which are awarded by Swedish institutions, the peace prize is given out by a five-member committee elected by the Norwegian Parliament. Like the Parliament, the committee has a leftist slant, with three members elected by left-of-center parties. Jagland said the decision to honor Obama was unanimous.

The Nobel committee chairman said after awarding the 2002 prize to former Democratic President Jimmy Carter, for his mediation in international conflicts, that it should be seen as a "kick in the leg" to the Bush administration's hard line in the buildup to the Iraq war.

Obama's designation is akin to giving an Oscar to a young director for films we hope that he or she will produce or for a first-time published author getting a Pulitzer for a book he is destined to write some day.

Seth=L

10-09-2009, 11:00 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_nobel_peace

I'm surprised Buckeye Nut or one of the other Obama-haters hasn't commented on this yet. Personally I think it's a little early to be giving the man awards, but this seems to prove that he's definitley making strides towards improving the U.S.'s standing in the rest of the world.

Come on, ya know it's killin' ya! :D
The reason he started this thread was not because it somehow supported his belief, and it only slightly contradicts his hate for political threads. My educated postulation of why he started the thread is right in the context. He was surprised no one else had mentioned it yet and wanted to be the herald of the news. It's an exciting feeling for someone to deliver news, especially when they usually aren't the first one to the punch. It's called "me first" syndrome, meaning he knew about it soon enough to make an announcement to everyone else. He's proud of making the statement.

Next time give the guy a pat on the back, recognition is a powerful thing.:D

JerryLove

10-10-2009, 12:07 AM

In fairness Bush was fairly succesful except in Iraq which spilled over into everything else. He made a big mistake in how he handled Iraq, but what else did he do that was so bad? Obama has a few years to mess up like that too Off the top of my head?

Record deficit spending.
Failure to actaully get Bin Lauden.
Failure to focus on Afghanistan.
The Patriot act.
Warrantless wiretapping.
Torture.
Appointing Rumsfeld's college buddy head of FEMA rather than someone qualified.
Weapons of mass distruction (that's not execution of Iraq).
Of Putin "I looked into his eyes and saw he was a good man".
North Korea's Nuclear program.
Removed the ability of the EPA to force cleanup of emissions (they managed to do it once between when they were given that power late in Clinton's administration, and when Bush took it away... in Tampa).
A failure to re-regulate banks as new debt-backed securities hit the markets.
Domestic economic policy.
A failure to stem the incentives for outsourcing as the economy turned down.
There's more, but that should give an idea that it's more than just Iraq.

Obama followed the same economic policies as Bush in trying to bring the economy back too. Don't get me wrong they are very different people with very different goals. Still not being someone else is not a goal or accomplishment. Bringing Iran to no longer pursue nuclear weapons would be an achievement. I don't agree with the bailouts as they were done. I do recognize that Obama was an advocate of them.

Davemcc

10-10-2009, 06:57 AM

They decided that "the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations" is Barack Obama. I think a case can be made for that...

Make your case.:p

U.S. troops are still fighting in Iraq.
U.S. troops are still fighting in Afghanistan.
Guantanamo is still open and housing prisoners.
Bush appointees Bernanke and Gates are still in two of the most powerful positions.
Iran is still openly building nukes to exterminate Israel and taunting the U.S. in the U.N.
Russia, Iran, Cuba and Venezuela are still conspiring to create an armed soviet led bloc against the U.S.
China still demands possession of Taiwan and is building a huge navy to take it.
North Korea is still...well...North Korea.:rolleyes:

Essentially, nine months into Obama's tenure, U.S. diplomacy is in the exact same geo-political position it was in during the Bush administration and the exact position it was in two weeks into Obama's presidency when he was nominated for the prize. So I guess we should write this year off for what Obama "shall have done" toward world peace and expect better from him next year.:confused:

Rickster71

10-10-2009, 10:24 AM

Way to try to bait people into a flame war.

If you want an example of baiting people into a flame war; I suggest you reread post #1
It could've brought up the topic without the two lines below:

I'm surprised Buckeye Nut or one of the other Obama-haters hasn't commented on this yet.

Come on, ya know it's killin' ya!

Rickster71

10-10-2009, 10:29 AM

I saw a quote in the New York Daily news today that summed it up well.
"It's like giving Derek Jeter the MVP right after spring training"

JerryLove

10-10-2009, 10:49 AM

Make your case.:p Can something be "worked towards" even when not complete or accomplished?

Davemcc

10-10-2009, 11:31 AM

Can something be "worked towards" even when not complete or accomplished?

Absolutely but that does not meet the criteria for which the poster suggested he could make his case.

Hi Ho

10-10-2009, 02:41 PM

I'd say that the intro to Dori Monsons show on KIRO Seattle yesterday pretty much sums up what I thought when I heard this news

http://icestream.bonnint.net/seattle/kiro/2009/10/p_Dori_Monson_Show_20091009_12pm.mp3

JerryLove

10-10-2009, 03:28 PM

Absolutely but that does not meet the criteria for which the poster suggested he could make his case.The quote you gave from him said "the best work for".

But I think the NPC has been clear that they are trying to use the prize to effect change rather than aknowledge achievment. I don't know if I agree with that or not, but I do understand it.

Davemcc

10-11-2009, 01:15 AM

The quote you gave from him said "the best work for".

But I think the NPC has been clear that they are trying to use the prize to effect change rather than aknowledge achievment. I don't know if I agree with that or not, but I do understand it.

I'd still like that poster to make his case that Obama has done any work to that end, nevermind the best work. Besides, when it comes to international diplomacy, Hilary Clinton has done all the work, all the traveling and all the negotiating for the administration. If the prize is for having done work towards that goal, should not have Hilary won the prize rather than Big O?:confused:

At any rate, I find myself in total agreement with Obama in his response when he says,

"Let me be clear, I do not view it as a recognition of my own accomplishments"

"I do not feel that I deserve to be in the company of so many transformative figures that have been honored by this prize"

I couldn't have said it better myself.:D

Adam

10-11-2009, 11:37 PM

Maybe more things could be based on potential and not results. I wish that promotions where I work were handed out based on the potential that I showed in high school. Heck, I'd be running the place right now. Into the ground, sure, but still...

darien87

10-12-2009, 11:22 AM

The reason he started this thread was not because it somehow supported his belief, and it only slightly contradicts his hate for political threads. My educated postulation of why he started the thread is right in the context. He was surprised no one else had mentioned it yet and wanted to be the herald of the news. It's an exciting feeling for someone to deliver news, especially when they usually aren't the first one to the punch. It's called "me first" syndrome, meaning he knew about it soon enough to make an announcement to everyone else. He's proud of making the statement.

Next time give the guy a pat on the back, recognition is a powerful thing.:D

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. I wasn't really trying to make a political point. I was really just thumbing my nose at Buckeye Nut for not immediately latching on to something that he could slam Obama about and starting another tiresome political thread.

Alex2507

10-12-2009, 11:33 AM

Aren't you the one who complained about political threads? :confused:

He was probably only objecting to your participation in them ... like in this one. :D

I didn't read the whole thread so I hope I'm not restating the obvious. :o

lsiberian

10-12-2009, 11:41 AM

To be honest this was unfair to Obama. Shouldn't we celebrate a guy after he's done a great job. I personally would love for Obama to earn this award before he's acknowledged.

itschris

10-12-2009, 12:29 PM

To be honest this was unfair to Obama. Shouldn't we celebrate a guy after he's done a great job. I personally would love for Obama to earn this award before he's acknowledged.

I don't know that deep down inside or maybe not so deep, that he feels he doesn't deserve it. I think the one characteristic that even some people who support him feel is his biggest weakness is his arrogrance.

The tactical response exactly what he did, act humble, acknowledge the skeptics. Give the appearance. If it were sincere, he would have, in a very respectful way, declined... or accept the honor and explain why he was going to give the prize money to the runner up. I wish that would have happened.

I used to just dislike his politics, but was interested in the man. Now that I've had a good chunk of time to see, hear, and learn about him, I find that dislike has stretched way beyond just his methods.

redass

10-12-2009, 12:44 PM

I don't know that deep down inside or maybe not so deep, that he feels he doesn't deserve it. I think the one characteristic that even some people who support him feel is his biggest weakness is his arrogrance.

The tactical response exactly what he did, act humble, acknowledge the skeptics. Give the appearance. If it were sincere, he would have, in a very respectful way, declined... or accept the honor and explain why he was going to give the prize money to the runner up. I wish that would have happened.

I used to just dislike his politics, but was interested in the man. Now that I've had a good chunk of time to see, hear, and learn about him, I find that dislike has stretched way beyond just his methods.

hey, way to figure out a way to hold something against the guy when he didn't actually do anything at all. :rolleyes:

MinusTheBear

10-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner. I wasn't really trying to make a political point. I was really just thumbing my nose at Buckeye Nut for not immediately latching on to something that he could slam Obama about and starting another tiresome political thread.

This might be a good strategy against all the political trolls here at audioholics. Beat them to the punch! :p

bombarde32

10-12-2009, 02:03 PM

hey, way to figure out a way to hold something against the guy when he didn't actually do anything at all. :rolleyes:

Ah, but he did do something ... He made a choice. He accepted an award he didn't earn or deserve instead of respectfully declining it.

Generally speaking - when the liberal and conservative statements align with those of Hugo Chavez to say it was a bad decision to accept ... I'd say you have a pretty good consensus that he should have declined.

itschris

10-12-2009, 02:06 PM

hey, way to figure out a way to hold something against the guy when he didn't actually do anything at all. :rolleyes:

Exactly. Do you make a habit of accepting things you don't deserve? Would you want someone to call you a "hero" if you were the guy who just stood on the curb watching and not the one who ran into the burning building to save people? Would you accept a sales award from you company if there were others who sold more than you? Would you accept a bonus for something you didn't really earn?

I hope not. I know I've graciously shown my appreciation for recognition, but have respectfully declined the cudos because someone else was more serving. Other times I've made a point to at the very least share the acknowledgement with others who got me to where I was. It's what people of character do.

lsiberian

10-12-2009, 02:43 PM

Exactly. Do you make a habit of accepting things you don't deserve? Would you want someone to call you a "hero" if you were the guy who just stood on the curb watching and not the one who ran into the burning building to save people? Would you accept a sales award from you company if there were others who sold more than you? Would you accept a bonus for something you didn't really earn?

I hope not. I know I've graciously shown my appreciation for recognition, but have respectfully declined the cudos because someone else was more serving. Other times I've made a point to at the very least share the acknowledgement with others who got me to where I was. It's what people of character do.

What if you broke the ultimate race barrier in a nation that only 40 years ago was on the heels of a bloody racial war?

He did accomplish one good thing by proving that America could elect a black man to it's highest office. I think that would have been a much better basis for the award.

Alex2507

10-12-2009, 02:55 PM

... all the political trolls here at audioholics.

Poor form but we're gonna let it slide because you're Canadian.

Many of these 'trolls' dish out great audio advice that makes this a great site and they like talking to each other. That's their business and they probably don't appreciate name calling. ;)

He did accomplish one good thing by proving that America could elect a black man to it's highest office.

He's BLACK ??? :eek:
That's it. I'm moving back to Canada. Minus for PM. :rolleyes:

JerryLove

10-12-2009, 03:19 PM

Exactly. Do you make a habit of accepting things you don't deserve? I know that you returned the stimulus check to the IRS because it was a progressive tax. Right?

Do you really think turning it down would have been better? Seems that would have been a big F.Y. to an awful lot of people. I suspect you'd find a reason to call him a jerk if he did that too.

Would you want someone to call you a "hero" if you were the guy who just stood on the curb watching and not the one who ran into the burning building to save people? Would you accept a sales award from you company if there were others who sold more than you? Would you accept a bonus for something you didn't really earn? Name the athlete that gave back the MVP award. I want an example.

I hope not. I know I've graciously shown my appreciation for recognition, but have respectfully declined the cudos because someone else was more serving. Other times I've made a point to at the very least share the acknowledgement with others who got me to where I was. It's what people of character do. So you've come up and acknowledged that you've not thusfar made accomplishments that made you feel deserving of the award, but you hoped to rise to the occasion and do so going forward. Perhaps you took the cash prize and signed it to charity.

If Obama did something like that, would that appease you?

itschris

10-12-2009, 03:31 PM

I know that you returned the stimulus check to the IRS because it was a progressive tax. Right?

Do you really think turning it down would have been better? Seems that would have been a big F.Y. to an awful lot of people. I suspect you'd find a reason to call him a jerk if he did that too.

Name the athlete that gave back the MVP award. I want an example.

So you've come up and acknowledged that you've not thusfar made accomplishments that made you feel deserving of the award, but you hoped to rise to the occasion and do so going forward. Perhaps you took the cash prize and signed it to charity.

If Obama did something like that, would that appease you?

In my industry, we sometimes like to pat ourselves on the back, even when we don't deserve it. Yes. I have very rich bonus programs that I get paid on for meeting any number of goals and objectives. I have certainly met and or surpassed them most times, but there have been time where I have fallen just short, yet been told "close enough." I don't adhere to that and I reject that bonus. I try to set an example to my staff that you get what you deserve both good and bad.

The MVP analogy is a bit unfair since, at least to my knowledge, it's rarely handed to players who have not really did anything. I think you can debate maybe whether or not one person should have got it or another, but there usually is some defensable premise.

With the exception of his most ardent supporters, most are pretty much of the same opinion that this was clearly an award he should not have gotten, insofar as histroical standards go. But as I said, even Yassar Arafat received it so draw your own conclusion.

Granted I have contempt for his politics, his methodology, and his justification for what few things he has done so far and what he yet wants to do with health care and any other policy that's designed to penalize success and growth. My dislike for him personally has nothing to do with politics, but his character, his behavior, his deameanor. I don't like it. I can't say much more.

itschris

10-12-2009, 03:58 PM

Poor form but we're gonna let it slide because you're Canadian.

Many of these 'trolls' dish out great audio advice that makes this a great site and they like talking to each other. That's their business and they probably don't appreciate name calling. ;)

He's BLACK ??? :eek:
That's it. I'm moving back to Canada. Minus for PM. :rolleyes:

I'm still trying to get my head around the "first black President" thing. Two people I work with, one who is black (who is also a very good personal friend to me) and one who is half black and half white, do not think of him as a "black" man.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a social expert on race. But if your half of one thing and half another, how can you be just one of those things? He's black, but isn't he also white? There's a part of me that takes offense to his dismissal of his white half (for lack of a better way to put it.) much like I think how a black person would feel if he referred to himself as white - which I guess he could do just as easily. Is it based which parent? The race listed in the census is based on your mother's race if I'm not mistaken. So it there a social vs official difference. I don't know and I want to understand.

In the grand scheme of things, I really don't care if he or anyone else is white or black or some % of either, but I don't understand what makes you one or the other or why you choose to call yourself one or the other ignoring your equal other race. The person I work with is also 50/50 refers to herself as mulatto, not white, not black, when we discuss race based issues or talk of Obama. I'm not close with her nor do I know her well enough to probe for an understanding. My friend who actually is an African American from Africa, doesn't think of him as black and doesn't like American blacks calling themselves African American.

Race is very complicated and it's difficut to even discuss because despite how careful you are or how sincere your points are, you will likely offend someone in a very serious way. I wish it wasn't like that, but it is, I can understand that to a great degree.

What makes you black, or white, for that matter. If you 25% black, would/could you still calll yourself a black person? If you're just 25% white, would/could you still call yourself white?

It's a question I've thought about now and then since Obama came to the limelight and he and everyone else referred to him as black. Personally, race doesn't matter much to me, but I do have a sincere desire to have a better understanding of thoughts, feelings, and motivations behind it. As a white male, I realize that my views can tend to be somewhat myopic on some things, but before I can expand my view, I need to first understand.

MinusTheBear

10-12-2009, 04:00 PM

because you're Canadian.

I appreciate the compliment. :D

droht

10-12-2009, 04:25 PM

redass

10-12-2009, 04:26 PM

I'm still trying to get my head around the "first black President" thing. Two people I work with, one who is black (who is also a very good personal friend to me) and one who is half black and half white, do not think of him as a "black" man.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a social expert on race. But if your half of one thing and half another, how can you be just one of those things? He's black, but isn't he also white? There's a part of me that takes offense to his dismissal of his white half (for lack of a better way to put it.) much like I think how a black person would feel if he referred to himself as white - which I guess he could do just as easily. Is it based which parent? The race listed in the census is based on your mother's race if I'm not mistaken. So it there a social vs official difference. I don't know and I want to understand.

In the grand scheme of things, I really don't care if he or anyone else is white or black or some % of either, but I don't understand what makes you one or the other or why you choose to call yourself one or the other ignoring your equal other race. The person I work with is also 50/50 refers to herself as mulatto, not white, not black, when we discuss race based issues or talk of Obama. I'm not close with her nor do I know her well enough to probe for an understanding. My friend who actually is an African American from Africa, doesn't think of him as black and doesn't like American blacks calling themselves African American.

Race is very complicated and it's difficut to even discuss because despite how careful you are or how sincere your points are, you will likely offend someone in a very serious way. I wish it wasn't like that, but it is, I can understand that to a great degree.

What makes you black, or white, for that matter. If you 25% black, would/could you still calll yourself a black person? If you're just 25% white, would/could you still call yourself white?

It's a question I've thought about now and then since Obama came to the limelight and he and everyone else referred to him as black. Personally, race doesn't matter much to me, but I do have a sincere desire to have a better understanding of thoughts, feelings, and motivations behind it. As a white male, I realize that my views can tend to be somewhat myopic on some things, but before I can expand my view, I need to first understand.

what are you rambling about? you don't honestly think a racist jackass would consider obama only half-black

JerryLove

10-12-2009, 05:41 PM

The MVP analogy is a bit unfair since, at least to my knowledge, it's rarely handed to players who have not really did anything. I think you can debate maybe whether or not one person should have got it or another, but there usually is some defensable premise. And the Nobel committee has justified this award with a debateable but defensable premise. I don't think I agree with them, but it was their decision to make and I think Obama has responded appropriately.

With the exception of his most ardent supporters, most are pretty much of the same opinion that this was clearly an award he should not have gotten, insofar as histroical standards go. But as I said, even Yassar Arafat received it so draw your own conclusion. Or Woodrow Wilson.

Granted I have contempt for his politics, his methodology, and his justification for what few things he has done so far and what he yet wants to do with health care and any other policy that's designed to penalize success and growth. My dislike for him personally has nothing to do with politics, but his character, his behavior, his deameanor. I don't like it. I can't say much more. Perhaps some other thread.

Wafflesomd

10-12-2009, 07:28 PM

I was under the impression that you have to do something to win a Nobel prize.

JerryLove

10-12-2009, 07:29 PM

I was under the impression that you have to do something to win a Nobel prize. Read one of the hundreds of articles citing the Nobel Prize Committie on what he did that made them vote to give him the prize.

itschris

10-12-2009, 08:29 PM

what are you rambling about? you don't honestly think a racist jackass would consider obama only half-black

I'm not talking about what a racist would think. I think I know that. Either you didn't read my post or simply aren't able to understand it's question.

highfigh

10-12-2009, 09:53 PM

itschris, I think the first black president thing is very simple. He looks black in such a way that he would have faced serious discrimination in our country going back some years. I think we are all aware of how folks who looked black were treated, are we not? I don't think his white half would have been allowed to vote or ride in the front of the bus or play major league baseball, just to state a few examples.

I know more than a few black people who share this opinion.

On a lighter note, Wanda Sykes has a new HBO special. She sort of addresses this issue. But she says that if Obama screws up badly she will be the first person complaining about that "half white president".

Wait a minute- are you saying that he had to deal with being the victim of Americans treating him as second-class due to being black or half-black? That's a crock. He didn't live in the US for more than his first two years of life and that was in Hawaii, which is hardly the Deep South. Then, they moved to Indonesia after his mother remarried and he didn't go back to Hawaii until he was 10, staying there until he wen to California in '79, where he went to Occidental College for two years.

The guy never even lived "The Black American Experience" until he came to the mainland and unless he went into East LA, Long Beach, Watts or Compton on a regular basis (highly unlikely), he may not have learned what really goes on in the American Black community until then and in LA, possibly not as much as when he went to New York. By that time, being Black was hardly what it had been in the '60s and before. He never marched for civil rights- that had already been done for him.

If he was a "regular" Black man, I really don't think he would have been elected. No prejudice in my comment but I really don't think white people would have voted for him.

droht

10-12-2009, 10:38 PM

Rickster71

10-13-2009, 07:00 AM

The Obama's are millionaires, and lawyers.( as are most of our politicians)
I doubt that any of them care what us 'tax paying pawns' think.

highfigh

10-13-2009, 07:58 AM

I'm not saying that Obama has endured any racism. I have no idea if he has or not. What I was saying is that his physical appearance qualifies him as the first black president just as it would have qualified him for various forms of discrimination had he lived in a different era.

OK. I thought the election was for President, not the White President or Black President. By calling it "an historic election", it was made a racial issue, even though some people said it wasn't about race. It was nothing but about race for many voters. It could hardly be about his experience in national government (he didn't have much), It was hardly about his attempts to bring black and white together and in his book (which was supposed to be about race relations but he made it into an autobiography), he said he stopped telling people about his white family members when he was 12.

If Archie Bunker was around, he would probably describe him as "Too much of both and not enough of neither". If someone wants to see him as half of something they don't like, they will. If someone doesn't have a problem with this, the only time they'll be bothered by it is when other people can't stop talking about it. Once the characteristic that made the person an unlikely winner is attached to their position, it allows one side to claim that as being responsible for that person's failures and the other side to claim it as being responsible for their successes.

He's the President, not the Black President and he shouldn't be called Black or White because he's not one or the other but he has definitely aligned himself with one side.

itschris

10-13-2009, 09:08 AM

That was put very well. The only time I think about race is when it's pushed in my face. We all seem to be okay with equality. I think most people want to be considered equal. But at the same time you can't claim to want equality, yet categorize yourself, or allow others to do so, when it benefits you. If we're all equal, and it's what we all want, why do we have the first black president, the first woman this... the first latino that?

If you want, desire, or benefit from the recognition of your race when it benefits, awards, or acknowledges you, then you're saying I'm not equal and colorblind. To me, it's like saying, "he's the first short CEO" or "the first fat judge in the county."

I never cared for Obama's politics, but appreciated his charisma. On top of that, the Democrats will always be the party of cool, rubbing elows with high society and Hollywood. People like to associate themselves with those they admire and it seems most of America loves Oprah.

OK. I thought the election was for President, not the White President or Black President. By calling it "an historic election", it was made a racial issue, even though some people said it wasn't about race. It was nothing but about race for many voters. It could hardly be about his experience in national government (he didn't have much), It was hardly about his attempts to bring black and white together and in his book (which was supposed to be about race relations but he made it into an autobiography), he said he stopped telling people about his white family members when he was 12.

If Archie Bunker was around, he would probably describe him as "Too much of both and not enough of neither". If someone wants to see him as half of something they don't like, they will. If someone doesn't have a problem with this, the only time they'll be bothered by it is when other people can't stop talking about it. Once the characteristic that made the person an unlikely winner is attached to their position, it allows one side to claim that as being responsible for that person's failures and the other side to claim it as being responsible for their successes.

He's the President, not the Black President and he shouldn't be called Black or White because he's not one or the other but he has definitely aligned himself with one side.

billy p

10-13-2009, 09:22 AM

Unfortunately, it always boils down to race? What does his(Obama's) or anybody's colour have to do with winning this award.:confused:

gmichael

10-13-2009, 09:44 AM

Black, white, yellow or green. Who gives a f-k? Congrats on the award. Please get us out of the mess we're in.

highfigh

10-13-2009, 09:56 AM

Unfortunately, it always boils down to race? What does his(Obama's) or anybody's colour have to do with winning this award.:confused:

It shouldn't, but because he's the first Black President of the US, he's going to be seen as a breakthrough. He is charismatic, if people don't look for flaws in his delivery. He makes things sound attainable even if they're not, but that's because he brought something to the Black people that they haven't had for a long time- hope.

The problem I have with his winning the NPP is that he didn't do much yet. If he had already brought us out of the depths of what we're in now, created a universally approved health care plan and brought peace to the inner cities of the US, I would have been happy for him but to give it to him because they hope he will do good things- I can't think of a single time this has happened. Prizes are for accomplishments, not incentives to do things in the future.

He received a big advance to write a book on race relations and as I posted, he turned it into an autobiography. He also delayed writing it for a long time and it appears that he just turned it into a book about himself. If he creates a monument to himself with the prize and/or money, it will be a bad indication of his motives.

JerryLove

10-13-2009, 11:22 AM

If he creates a monument to himself with the prize and/or money, it will be a bad indication of his motives. The money was donated to charity.

itschris

10-13-2009, 11:40 AM

The money was donated to charity.

ACORN?

Just kidding. :D

redass

10-13-2009, 12:30 PM

I'm not talking about what a racist would think. I think I know that. Either you didn't read my post or simply aren't able to understand it's question.

uh... you said you were trying to wrap your head around the "first black president" thing. the only reason anyone cares about "first black president" is due to the deeply rooted racist traditions in america, so it would be ridiculous to dismiss "what a racist would think" in this discussion. he's the "first black president" because people like him are considered to be black by the racist traditions of america, thus making him the first black president. of course you're not wrapping your head around it; anybody reading your posts can see you have the "everything about obama is bad bad bad bad bad" mindset in which it is impossible to give the guy credit for anything, no matter what is may be. how ridiculous is it that you're trying to cheapen the fact that america has elected a man who would unarguably have been considered a second class citizen less than a century ago by pointing out that he is half white? or that you are attacking obama because he didn't refuse the nobel prize? you absolutely know you would give him grief for refusing it as well... "oh, who does he think he is, just flat out rejecting a nobel prize? oh, the arrogance of obama!"

lsiberian

10-13-2009, 12:41 PM

uh... you said you were trying to wrap your head around the "first black president" thing. well, he's the first black president because people like him are considered to be black by the racist traditions of america, thus making him the first black president. of course you're not wrapping your head around it; anybody reading your posts can see you have the "everything about obama is bad bad bad bad bad" mindset in which it is impossible to give the guy credit for anything, no matter what is may be. how ridiculous is it that you're trying to cheapen the fact that america has elected a man who would unarguably have been considered a second class citizen a century ago by pointing out that he is half white? or that you are attacking obama because he didn't refuse the nobel prize? you absolutely know you would give him grief for refusing it as well... "oh, who does he think he is, just flat out rejecting a nobel prize? oh, the arrogance of obama!"

Cut him some slack. I doubt he thinks everything Obama does is bad. I think he is suspicious of him, but it's warranted considering his rise to power. We need people that ask questions and don't just stand there letting the leader do as he pleases. The best solutions come when people on both sides have input. I want folks to realize that he hasn't rammed healthcare down our throats like Bush did the reckless tax cuts.

darien87

10-13-2009, 12:48 PM

Davemcc

10-13-2009, 12:50 PM

he brought something to the Black people that they haven't had for a long time- hope.

I rarely if ever make a comment related to race but this gave me a WTF moment. If black people need a role model, how about the highest paid athlete (Tiger), highest paid entertainer (Oprah), best selling pop music artist (MJ), highest paid actor - 2008 (Will Smith), etc. There is no shortage of exceptional black role models in every career. Adding president to the list of black accomplishments is just another notch, not a game changer. I think the list above, as well as the thousands of other successful black people in politics, sports, television, movies and music clearly demonstrate that hard work and talent determine a person's success and not the color of their skin.

In terms of role models and bringing hope, I think Thomas Sowell is a better role model for young black people than Obama despite the fact he became president.

lsiberian

10-13-2009, 12:59 PM

I rarely if ever make a comment related to race but this gave me a WTF moment. If black people need a role model, how about the highest paid athlete (Tiger), highest paid entertainer (Oprah), best selling pop music artist (MJ), highest paid actor - 2008 (Will Smith), etc. There is no shortage of exceptional black role models in every career. Adding president to the list of black accomplishments is just another notch, not a game changer. I think the list above, as well as the thousands of other successful black people in politics, sports, television, movies and music clearly demonstrate that hard work and talent determine a person's success and not the color of their skin.

In terms of role models and bringing hope, I think Thomas Sowell is a better role model for young black people than Obama despite the fact he became president.

I think it is a game changer. Obama inspires me to do better in my life and I'm not even black. He's an inspirational person. Obama is a great person and while I don't agree with all his policies I see him as doing the best he can in life. I may not vote for him in the next election, but he's still been great for many people in our nation.

However now is the time for him to deliver on his promises and plans. He's got 3 more years left. Time is ticking.

redass

10-13-2009, 02:02 PM

Cut him some slack. I doubt he thinks everything Obama does is bad. I think he is suspicious of him, but it's warranted considering his rise to power. We need people that ask questions and don't just stand there letting the leader do as he pleases. The best solutions come when people on both sides have input. I want folks to realize that he hasn't rammed healthcare down our throats like Bush did the reckless tax cuts.

cheapening the notion that obama is the first dark skinned guy to be president and pretending that his election is no big deal for our society while wanting to believe that obama's acceptance of the nobel peace prize shows arrogance is very productive as far as policy making goes. thank god it's not all a bunch of meaningless propaganda from partisan monkeys designed to pull attention from important things. :rolleyes:

oh, and obama is a communist nazi facist kenyan warlord who is infiltrating our government from the inside; that's good policy discussion, too.

Chu Gai

10-13-2009, 02:14 PM

cheapening the notion that obama is the first dark skinned guy to be president and pretending that his election is no big deal for our society while wanting to believe that obama's acceptance of the nobel peace prize shows arrogance is very productive as far as policy making goes. thank god it's not all a bunch of meaningless propaganda from partisan monkeys designed to pull attention from important things. :rolleyes:

oh, and obama is a communist nazi facist kenyan warlord who is infiltrating our government from the inside; that's good policy discussion, too.
Well, you could've just said that he's a lawyer. That would've been shorter :D

discodon

10-13-2009, 02:44 PM

Oh wait...that's already happening. I guess he is the best human to walk the earth, Oh wait...He's not human. Man we are in serious trouble. I wonder if he can require that everyone that subscribes to Audioholics be given new gear once a year? I'm holding my breath. Free Health Care and Audio Gear for all Americans!! I mean really, the government has plenty of our cash and if we run out, we can just priny more, YEA!! Go Oboma:eek::mad:

Schupo

10-13-2009, 02:57 PM

I rarely if ever make a comment related to race but this gave me a WTF moment. If black people need a role model, how about the highest paid athlete (Tiger), highest paid entertainer (Oprah), best selling pop music artist (MJ), highest paid actor - 2008 (Will Smith), etc. There is no shortage of exceptional black role models in every career. Adding president to the list of black accomplishments is just another notch, not a game changer. I think the list above, as well as the thousands of other successful black people in politics, sports, television, movies and music clearly demonstrate that hard work and talent determine a person's success and not the color of their skin.

In terms of role models and bringing hope, I think Thomas Sowell is a better role model for young black people than Obama despite the fact he became president.

You're saying that the top entertainer (notice that every person you just mentioned is an entertainer, not just Oprah) is on par with being the head of one of the most powerful nations in the world? Don't be foolish. Obama's election shows people - not just black people, ALL people - that adversity can be overcome and greatness can be achieved no matter who you are.

gmichael

10-13-2009, 03:23 PM

You're saying that the top entertainer (notice that every person you just mentioned is an entertainer, not just Oprah) is on par with being the head of one of the most powerful nations in the world? Don't be foolish. Obama's election shows people - not just black people, ALL people - that adversity can be overcome and greatness can be achieved no matter who you are.

You do know that all of those "entertainers" make way more than the pres does?

Chu Gai

10-13-2009, 03:32 PM

Yes, but they had better years.

rnatalli

10-13-2009, 03:36 PM

You do know that all of those "entertainers" make way more than the pres does?

True, but how many of them get to travel around in a nuke-proof 747? :D

gmichael

10-13-2009, 03:48 PM

True, but how many of them get to travel around in a nuke-proof 747? :D

Good question.

IDK....

Adam

10-13-2009, 03:54 PM

True, but how many of them get to travel around in a nuke-proof 747? :D

Two. :)

highfigh

10-13-2009, 07:57 PM

The money was donated to charity.

Right, but which one? One of his pet projects? Something separate? Something for everyone or is it for one group? Acorn?

highfigh

10-13-2009, 07:58 PM

ACORN?

Just kidding. :D

Sure wish I had seen this before my post.:(

highfigh

10-13-2009, 08:00 PM

highfigh

10-13-2009, 08:18 PM

What is the difference to the economy and national debt between reckless tax cuts and reckless spending?

I rarely if ever make a comment related to race but this gave me a WTF moment. If black people need a role model, how about the highest paid athlete (Tiger), highest paid entertainer (Oprah), best selling pop music artist (MJ), highest paid actor - 2008 (Will Smith), etc. There is no shortage of exceptional black role models in every career. Adding president to the list of black accomplishments is just another notch, not a game changer. I think the list above, as well as the thousands of other successful black people in politics, sports, television, movies and music clearly demonstrate that hard work and talent determine a person's success and not the color of their skin.

In terms of role models and bringing hope, I think Thomas Sowell is a better role model for young black people than Obama despite the fact he became president.

Do you actually talk to black people? Every single one I have talked with has said the same thing- there's not a lot of hope in the lives of desperately poor people. They may have dropped out of school, may have been treated like a dog through their childhood, may have been beaten and abused, may have been a crack or born with fetal alcohol syndrome, may have been raised in a place that doesn't tolerate minorities, may have fallen in with bad people at a young age- how far do you want the list to go? Go to some of the poorest parts of town and tell them "Don't worry, be happy" and see how far that gets you.

You're forgetting that Tiger isn't 100% black, either. Most of Oprah's life was bad before she moved to Chicago. Even when it wasn't terrible, it wasn't necessarily great- she went to the same high school I did. but she was only there for one year and I don't remember more than about 15 blacks in her class and I seriously doubt there were more than 60 in the whole school population of 2200. Because of her past, she was really shy and didn't associate with too many kids, mainly because she went in without knowing anyone and not thinking that she'd be there for more than one year.

I have a hard time recommending that kids use entertainers and athletes as role models. Better to look at someone who led a tough life and dragged themselves out through hard work and determination, not through the efforts of others or playing a game. Sure, the skills needed to play at that level are hard to come by but most of them have more natural ability in that. To me, the guy who was the subject of 'Pursuit of Happyness" (Chris Gardner) is more of a role model than any athlete I can think of.

itschris

10-13-2009, 08:19 PM

uh... you said you were trying to wrap your head around the "first black president" thing. the only reason anyone cares about "first black president" is due to the deeply rooted racist traditions in america, so it would be ridiculous to dismiss "what a racist would think" in this discussion. he's the "first black president" because people like him are considered to be black by the racist traditions of america, thus making him the first black president. of course you're not wrapping your head around it; anybody reading your posts can see you have the "everything about obama is bad bad bad bad bad" mindset in which it is impossible to give the guy credit for anything, no matter what is may be. how ridiculous is it that you're trying to cheapen the fact that america has elected a man who would unarguably have been considered a second class citizen less than a century ago by pointing out that he is half white? or that you are attacking obama because he didn't refuse the nobel prize? you absolutely know you would give him grief for refusing it as well... "oh, who does he think he is, just flat out rejecting a nobel prize? oh, the arrogance of obama!"

Are you f-ing kidding me? Listen newbie, you need to be on here a lot longer to know me well enough to assess my motives and to read into what I say and make assumptions of what you think I mean.

itschris

10-13-2009, 08:36 PM

All right, as a half-black, half-white man who considers himself "black", let me answer the questions put forth, as how they relate to me.

Why do I consider myself black? It mainly has to do with how I look. I have brown skin and brown eyes. I look more black than I do white. It also has to do with how I have been treated by people in my life. I have been the victim of racism and discriminated against by people that made it abundantly clear that I was not white. It was just a personal choice that I made. I assume that Obama and others that consider him black, feel the same way.

I am in NO way denying my white side. I was raised by my mother, who is white, and I love her to death. She and my father had nothing but problems being a mixed couple in the 60's. His family didn't like her and her family didn't like him. She told me that they even lived in their car briefly as they weren't welcome in either parents homes. Unfortunately due to their youth and the rigors of being an interracial couple, they broke up soon after I was born. I've only met my real father a couple of times.

Unfortunately, I have also felt racism on the part of blacks towards me. I was raised by my mother, so I have more white mannerisms than black ones. I HATE the whole "ghetto-fabulous" craze that makes blacks look ignorant. I love being mixed, but it did make growing up difficult. But what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Obama is considered black, because he sure isn't white. As Highfigh himself said, Obama might not have won the election if he was 100% black. This statement illustrates that racism is still prevalent in this country. So whether you like it or not, race was a factor in the last election. I see Obama's election as a positive, as it seems like we are moving in the right direction. Perhaps some day race will not be an issue in politics, but we are not there yet.

Thanks for sharing that Darien. I know we've talked about this in the past, but what you just said defines a lot for me. If how you look dictates both internal and external influence on how you're perceived, then I can totally get how you would ultimately decide to consider yourself one race or another.

Like I said in another post, as a white male, I likely have a myopic view despite my desire to have or thought that I have, otherwise. I imagine it must be even more difficult to experience prejudice from whites because you're black, and prejudice from some blacks because you're not black enough. I just don't see things in racial terms. I don't hold a door open for someone walking into my office and think to myself "I just opened the door for a black woman." I don't sit in a meeting and find myself questioning this guy's accuracy because he's black. I do often times think that about what someone is saying, but I'm an equal opportunity skeptic.

Having "known" you for sometime here on the forum, you often articulate ideas that make me rethink things I've felt pretty strong about. I may not change my opinion ultimately, but at the same time, broadening your experience base is never a bad thing. I've long thought that if everyone would or could just ignore race altogether and not have even enter the mindset, that that would be the ultimate path to true equality. But I don't know if that's necessarily the right or best way anymore. Anyway, good post. I'll be pondering this stuff.

Adam

10-13-2009, 09:03 PM

billy p

10-14-2009, 06:54 AM

Our mods are not supposed to get into these types of heated exchanges (regardless of which side they support) and make a thread all about their personal views.

FWIW......:confused:

Alex2507

10-14-2009, 07:21 AM

FWIW......:confused:

The same should apply to Canadian members
and you're only bringing that up because of his conservative slant. :eek:

MarkW is so gonna get you. :D

Where is Mark anyway? I just know he wants to jump in here.
C'mon in Mark, the water's fine. Jamie and Minus need to be set straight, those liberal bastards. :D

JerryLove

10-14-2009, 07:33 AM

Right, but which one? One of his pet projects? Something separate? Something for everyone or is it for one group? Acorn? Oh dear lord: Now a man giving 1.4 million to charity is being argued as a "bad act"?!?

"Obama cures cancer".

"Yea, but which cancer? Probably not the one he should have cured" ?!?

Or were you being tongue-in-cheek as the previous post was?

Davemcc

10-14-2009, 07:39 AM

Do you actually talk to black people?

You mean like the members of my family that are black? Oh, but they are half white as well. But then again, they look black and the world sees them as black...and they like Obama.:confused:

Go to some of the poorest parts of town and tell them "Don't worry, be happy" and see how far that gets you.

Yet that is Obama's message.:rolleyes:

Seriously...HOPE. Hope means nothing. It's hard work that pays off in this lifetime. All the people I listed and the un-named thousands of others I referenced got where they are through hard work and talent. That is what a role model should inspire in my view. Anybody can sit around and "HOPE" for something better but HOPE isn't going to make it happen.

To use Obama as a role model, one must place a value on a tacit, if not explicit, acceptance of voter fraud, prevarification, having only a vague recollection of your closest associates, not hearing anything that's said inside your church and coming from a life of privilege and educational opportunity as a birthright. (Madelyn Lee Payne Dunham, Barack Obama's maternal grandmother, was a bank vice president in Hawaii).

Obama is all ambition without ethics and that does not make a role model.

I have a hard time recommending that kids use entertainers and athletes as role models. Better to look at someone who led a tough life and dragged themselves out through hard work and determination, not through the efforts of others or playing a game.

You have not described Obama. He did not lead a tough life, being raised by his grandmother the bank vice president, although he would have you believe that he did. Nor did he get himself elected. That was through the efforts of ACORN and the Chicago political machine backed by Soros' money. His meteoric rise to the White House came without a single significant achievement prior to his one significant achievement, getting elected president. His career is the closest thing to Being There (http://www.rageboy.com/images/cover-dvd-being-there.jpg). No, he still is not a role model, still just a peddler of cheap cliche's that mean nothing.

To me, the guy who was the subject of 'Pursuit of Happyness" (Chris Gardner) is more of a role model than any athlete I can think of.

And more so than that of your president. That's what I'm saying.:p

When I reference that thousands of others that would make better role models, it was precisely people like that that I was thinking of. Successful athletes and entertainers are simply more prominent and easier to reference than any of the myriad people who would make better role models than your president.

As far as this being an historic election, it could have been historic either way, first black or first woman president or first woman vice-president. There's no outcome that would not have made this an historic election.

Let me give you an analogy to explain how I feel about this. When I was a young man, I had the momentous, historic opportunity to buy my first car. At that time, my father's friend had a car for sale. I was very excited about buying that car, a Mustang, so I bought it. The car itself was old and deeply flawed, poorly maintained and worse for wear but the excitement overcame caution. In retrospect, I should have bought a good car instead of the first car that I was in a position to buy. The same applies to presidents.

Just because he is a black man that's running for president does not mean he is the black man (or woman) that should be president. (Condi - 2012:cool:)

Schupo

10-14-2009, 09:58 AM

I just don't see things in racial terms.

Why would you? You're white. You've never experienced racism the way a minority in this country has.

billy p

10-14-2009, 10:07 AM

gmichael

10-14-2009, 10:14 AM

Why would you? You're white. You've never experienced racism the way a minority in this country has.

This is a totally racist remark. You are judging everyone who is white strictly on the color of their skin. I call foul.

I was a white kid in a mostly non-white HS. I sure have experienced racism.

Alex2507

10-14-2009, 10:39 AM

Why would you? You're white. You've never experienced racism the way a minority in this country has.

You try returning something at Home Depot in Dade County and then say that with a straight face. :rolleyes:

markw

10-14-2009, 10:49 AM

The same should apply to Canadian members
and you're only bringing that up because of his conservative slant. :eek:

MarkW is so gonna get you. :D

Where is Mark anyway? I just know he wants to jump in here.
C'mon in Mark, the water's fine. Jamie and Minus need to be set straight, those liberal bastards. :DI made my statement on the irony of this thread in the beginning and now I'm simply having a hoot watching people drag race into the discussion. Unless, of course, you're saying they gave it to him simply based on his race. If that's the case, there's something rotten in Scandinavia.

Or, is it being implied here that any criticism of Obama is based on racial prejudice? Does anyone really want to play that card?

FWIW, Obama and I agree on this one: We both agree that he did nothing to deserve this. Let's hope he can pull a rabbit out of his hat and live up to his promises and their expectations, without bankrupting this country.

darien87

10-14-2009, 11:30 AM

Thanks for sharing that Darien. I know we've talked about this in the past, but what you just said defines a lot for me. If how you look dictates both internal and external influence on how you're perceived, then I can totally get how you would ultimately decide to consider yourself one race or another.

Having "known" you for sometime here on the forum, you often articulate ideas that make me rethink things I've felt pretty strong about. I may not change my opinion ultimately, but at the same time, broadening your experience base is never a bad thing. I've long thought that if everyone would or could just ignore race altogether and not have even enter the mindset, that that would be the ultimate path to true equality. But I don't know if that's necessarily the right or best way anymore. Anyway, good post. I'll be pondering this stuff.

No problem Chris. It's hard to understand someone else's situation until you've "walked in their shoes" as they say. It's extremely difficult to articulate my experience or feelings on race as I have a somewhat unique viewpoint. But I figured I'd give it a shot. It never hurts to try and understand one another.

JerryLove

10-14-2009, 11:45 AM

Seriously...HOPE. Hope means nothing. It's hard work that pays off in this lifetime. All the people I listed and the un-named thousands of others I referenced got where they are through hard work and talent. That is what a role model should inspire in my view. Anybody can sit around and "HOPE" for something better but HOPE isn't going to make it happen. Replace "hope means nothing" with something like "hope alone is not enough to make change" and I think you are near-verbatim on an Obama speech... a man who has spent decades organizing people into actually doing things to affect change.

To use Obama as a role model, one must place a value on a tacit, if not explicit, acceptance of voter fraud, prevarification, having only a vague recollection of your closest associates, not hearing anything that's said inside your church and coming from a life of privilege and educational opportunity as a birthright. (Madelyn Lee Payne Dunham, Barack Obama's maternal grandmother, was a bank vice president in Hawaii). Reverend right was a yearly and highly touted guest speaker at the major (white) Baptist church here in Clearwater until that same set of news articles.

You are holding a standard that sounds good till you start looking at who didn't meet it.

Tacit acceptance of voter fraud? What? Is this because the guy did one gig as a lawyer on one case for a nation-spanning organization that had fraud committed *against it*?

Let's not forget that part. Acorn did not orchestrate the extra registrations, it had fraud committed against it by people collecting money for false registrations... but let's assume Acorn is the devil incarnate: Obama's connection is minimal.

Obama is all ambition without ethics and that does not make a role model. Ambition to do what? What ethical violation are you thinking of? The one above certainly doesn't apply.

You have not described Obama. He did not lead a tough life, being raised by his grandmother the bank vice president, although he would have you believe that he did. Paternal abandonment followed by moving to another country, and then seperation from the new dad, and then death of your mom.

Nor did he get himself elected. That was through the efforts of ACORN and the Chicago political machine backed by Soros' money. Which election? I was a Hillary supporter until the two started to campaign.

His meteoric rise to the White House came without a single significant achievement prior to his one significant achievement, getting elected president. His career is the closest thing to Being There (http://www.rageboy.com/images/cover-dvd-being-there.jpg). No, he still is not a role model, still just a peddler of cheap cliche's that mean nothing. Dude. You are welcome to disagree with his policies, but you paint him to be GWB; and that's simply an unfair characterization.

Might he end up like Carter (another thread) and have sadly little in real accomplishment at the end of his term? It's possible: he's fighting on an awful lot of fronts against an awful lot of problems; but like Carter, it will not be for a lack of effort or consideration.

Then again, didn't Carter do both the Camp David accords and SALT treaties?

JerryLove

10-14-2009, 11:47 AM

This is a totally racist remark. You are judging everyone who is white strictly on the color of their skin. I call foul. Why would you relate to getting judged by your breasts? You are a man.

I'm "on the fence" in that I think there's racism in all directions, and that I think one can indeed understand something they have not experienced; but on the other hand the paradigm is different for each group.

adwilk

10-14-2009, 11:54 AM

Breaking news! Obama just won the Heisman after watching a college football game....

darien87

10-14-2009, 12:08 PM

Breaking news! Obama just won the Heisman after watching a college football game....

Smart ***. :p:D

itschris

10-14-2009, 12:15 PM

Respectifully bowing out... before I get the jumbo smack down from the big stick Clint and the big boys carry.

highfigh

10-14-2009, 01:50 PM

Oh dear lord: Now a man giving 1.4 million to charity is being argued as a "bad act"?!?

"Obama cures cancer".

"Yea, but which cancer? Probably not the one he should have cured" ?!?

Or were you being tongue-in-cheek as the previous post was?

Define 'charity'. He didn't specify and I didn't hear anyone ask, but if the definition " a charitable fund, foundation, or institution" was used, it doesn't necessarily mean it was for the poor or oppressed. If it had gone to a conservative POTUS, I would want to know the same thing. This is the President, not some schmuck on the street who won the lottery. The POTUS and their motives should be transparent- anything less raises suspicion and any conflicts of interest need to be stopped, regardless of who it is.

Schupo

10-14-2009, 01:52 PM

Define 'charity'. He didn't specify and I didn't hear anyone ask, but if the definition " a charitable fund, foundation, or institution" was used, it doesn't necessarily mean it was for the poor or oppressed. If it had gone to a conservative POTUS, I would want to know the same thing. This is the President, not some schmuck on the street who won the lottery. The POTUS and their motives should be transparent- anything less raises suspicion and any conflicts of interest need to be stopped, regardless of who it is.

When have we had a transparent president?

Schupo

10-14-2009, 01:56 PM

This is a totally racist remark. You are judging everyone who is white strictly on the color of their skin. I call foul.

Is this a joke? Re-read the last eight words of my post.

highfigh

10-14-2009, 01:58 PM

Seriously...HOPE. Hope means nothing. It's hard work that pays off in this lifetime. All the people I listed and the un-named thousands of others I referenced got where they are through hard work and talent. That is what a role model should inspire in my view. Anybody can sit around and "HOPE" for something better but HOPE isn't going to make it happen.

To use Obama as a role model, one must place a value on a tacit, if not explicit, acceptance of voter fraud, prevarification, having only a vague recollection of your closest associates, not hearing anything that's said inside your church and coming from a life of privilege and educational opportunity as a birthright. (Madelyn Lee Payne Dunham, Barack Obama's maternal grandmother, was a bank vice president in Hawaii).

Obama is all ambition without ethics and that does not make a role model.

You have not described Obama. He did not lead a tough life, being raised by his grandmother the bank vice president, although he would have you believe that he did. Nor did he get himself elected. That was through the efforts of ACORN and the Chicago political machine backed by Soros' money. His meteoric rise to the White House came without a single significant achievement prior to his one significant achievement, getting elected president. His career is the closest thing to Being There (http://www.rageboy.com/images/cover-dvd-being-there.jpg). No, he still is not a role model, still just a peddler of cheap cliche's that mean nothing.

And more so than that of your president. That's what I'm saying.:p

When I reference that thousands of others that would make better role models, it was precisely people like that that I was thinking of. Successful athletes and entertainers are simply more prominent and easier to reference than any of the myriad people who would make better role models than your president.

As far as this being an historic election, it could have been historic either way, first black or first woman president or first woman vice-president. There's no outcome that would not have made this an historic election.

Let me give you an analogy to explain how I feel about this. When I was a young man, I had the momentous, historic opportunity to buy my first car. At that time, my father's friend had a car for sale. I was very excited about buying that car, a Mustang, so I bought it. The car itself was old and deeply flawed, poorly maintained and worse for wear but the excitement overcame caution. In retrospect, I should have bought a good car instead of the first car that I was in a position to buy. The same applies to presidents.

Just because he is a black man that's running for president does not mean he is the black man (or woman) that should be president. (Condi - 2012:cool:)

Hope can keep some people from giving up completely. If they have some hope of better days ahead, they may not do something drastic that may seem like the only choice otherwise. I won't believe a good number of people literally said that they hoped he would be elected and meant it in the strictest sense. If everything was hopeless, what would be the point of going on with life? Hard work and determination would make it possible for those who would drop out of school continue and graduate, then go on to college and succeed in life, but that also assumes they would make the right decisions along the way.

Remember Charles Barkley getting dumped on for saying that he's not a role model> Ever hear his explanation? I agree with him- sports figures shouldn't replace parents and good teachers as role models, as long as those people are worthy.

highfigh

10-14-2009, 01:58 PM

When have we had a transparent president?

I never said we have that, I said I think we should.

highfigh

10-14-2009, 02:06 PM

Obama has ties to ACORN that go back at least to '95, when he represented them against the former Gov of Illinois.

google "Obama's connection to ACORN and you'll find a lot of links. Here's one:
http://purplepeoplevote.com/2008/09/30/what-is-acorn-and-obamas-connection/ and there were 830K links when I googled it.

gmichael

10-14-2009, 02:21 PM

Is this a joke? Re-read the last eight words of my post.

You're too good for me. I still don't get it. My sarcasm detector was broken a few weeks ago and is still in the shop. That may have something to do with it.:D

JerryLove

10-14-2009, 05:35 PM

JerryLove

10-14-2009, 05:42 PM

Obama has ties to ACORN that go back at least to '95, when he represented them against the former Gov of Illinois.http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/oct/17/sorting-truth-obama-acorn/

Obama was part of a group of lawyers representing a group of clients including ACORN once.

google "Obama's connection to ACORN and you'll find a lot of links. Here's one:
http://purplepeoplevote.com/2008/09/30/what-is-acorn-and-obamas-connection/ and there were 830K links when I googled it. Yes, but next to no actual connections.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn_accusations.html

There's the 1995 case we've both mentioned where he was on a team from a law-firm representing a group of clients including ACORN.

in 2001 and 2002 he was on the board of a fund that gave money to ACORN.

During his run, his capaign paid money to a "get out the vote" group that in turn paid money to ACORN.

I'm pretty sure he's more connected with Kevin Bacon.

Schupo

10-14-2009, 06:27 PM

You're too good for me. I still don't get it. My sarcasm detector was broken a few weeks ago and is still in the shop. That may have something to do with it.:D

I wasn't being sarcastic; were you? White people - the majority, the powerful, the "rulers" of America - will never face the racism that black people do. Even if you face racism as an individual in high school, that racism is contained in a local environment and does not represent the history of the country you do.

That's why the word "nigger" will always be more powerful than the word "cracker". Call me a cracker, sure. I don't care; that word is powerless. Nigger, though? That's a strong word not because what it means right now, but what baggage it carries along with it. It's really easy for white people to dismiss racism or claim that they have faced racism; it's not the same. At all.

darien87

10-14-2009, 06:27 PM

I'm pretty sure he's more connected with Kevin Bacon.

6 degrees of Kevin Bacon. :D

Chu Gai

10-14-2009, 06:31 PM

Ahhh, but do you know who is the most connected actor?

Alex2507

10-14-2009, 08:55 PM

MinusTheBear

10-14-2009, 09:22 PM

Maybe we can start poll in the steam for all us white folk to get a concencus if they would be offended by being called a cracker. Please add one vote for; it would make me laugh . :D

Alex2507

10-14-2009, 09:37 PM

Maybe we can start poll in the steam for all us white folk to get a concencus if they would be offended by being called a cracker. Please add one vote for; it would make me laugh . :D

Hearing that at 2:00 AM while you're trying to buy a 20 piece is a little scary. ;)
You should go to Detroit and try it some time. :eek:

MinusTheBear

10-14-2009, 09:54 PM

:rolleyes:Hearing that at 2:00 AM while you're trying to buy a 20 piece is a little scary. ;)
You should go to Detroit and try it some time. :eek:

No 20 piece for me. Its way cheaper to buy in large quantities and get it delivered to your home :rolleyes: . :o

I think it would be scarier being a Canadian in the Detroit ghetto than being white ;) .

highfigh

10-14-2009, 10:27 PM

He doesn't have the money yet, so no charity has been given anything. You seem to be saying "he chose the wrong one" when none has been chosen.

If anyone else wins this as POTUS, I want them to be totally transparent, too. I watched him say that he'd donate it but I still want to know where it goes.

That's because I don't trust him. I listened to him when he first entered the campaign and likes what he was saying but after a while, that changed to total distrust.

highfigh

10-14-2009, 10:32 PM

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/oct/17/sorting-truth-obama-acorn/

Obama was part of a group of lawyers representing a group of clients including ACORN once.

Yes, but next to no actual connections.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn_accusations.html

There's the 1995 case we've both mentioned where he was on a team from a law-firm representing a group of clients including ACORN.

in 2001 and 2002 he was on the board of a fund that gave money to ACORN.

During his run, his capaign paid money to a "get out the vote" group that in turn paid money to ACORN.

I'm pretty sure he's more connected with Kevin Bacon.

Mmmmm, bacon!

That Get Out The Vote program is the same one I was on a jury for, here in MKE. Guess why they were being tried.

highfigh

10-14-2009, 10:47 PM

White people - the majority, the powerful, the "rulers" of America - will never face the racism that black people do. Even if you face racism as an individual in high school, that racism is contained in a local environment and does not represent the history of the country you do.

The only way whites will ever be subjected to that kind of racism is if we end up being the minority to the same extent and can't overcome the rage being released. The only group I can think of who killed a similar number as whites in any similar time period is China at various times or Cambodia, under Pol Pot. In Africa, some countries are giving whites a good run for their money in the killing department but for all of the superiority trotted out by white supremist groups, whites have done a lot of effed up things.

If someone calls me 'cracker', how I take it will be determined by how it's said. I might have a problem if I haven't done anything to deserve it and it's said in anger, but otherwise, I don't see it as offensive.

Adam

10-14-2009, 11:07 PM

White people - the majority, the powerful, the "rulers" of America - will never face the racism that black people do. Even if you face racism as an individual in high school, that racism is contained in a local environment and does not represent the history of the country you do.

Seriously? Local is all that matters to an individual. I faced racism in college. Scared the living s**t out of me to have a bunch of guys that had a good 100 pounds of muscle on me (even back when I was in shape) come at me on a regular basis because I was white. I didn't give a rat's a** about the national state of affairs when a football player came at me to hit me with a crutch that he grabbed from his buddy. To add insult to injury, they called me a racist because I was white and said that they couldn't be racist because they weren't in power. Really? They had ALL the power in that situation. I couldn't take on a single football player, let alone multiple ones.

Do I face racism now? Not that I know of. But don't try to tell me that a bunch of guys willing to beat me to a pulp because the color of my skin is white doesn't matter because it doesn't happen on a national level.

adwilk

10-14-2009, 11:15 PM

I'm a white male. I was once passed up on a good job because of it. Yeah, whites don't have race troubles.

redass

10-15-2009, 12:03 AM

Are you f-ing kidding me? Listen newbie, you need to be on here a lot longer to know me well enough to assess my motives and to read into what I say and make assumptions of what you think I mean.

Dude, you said you had a personal dislike for him on pretty much every level possible; I didn't read into anything. :confused:
didn't mean anything personal, just political arguing.

My dislike for him personally has nothing to do with politics, but his character, his behavior, his deameanor. I don't like it. I can't say much more.

billy p

10-15-2009, 07:10 AM

Well if discrimination is a from of racism than colour me white, but I've never being a subject of racism. Now I'm not saying racism doesn't exist towards white people but IMO its hardly the same.

Regards, Bill

PS:Looks like we're way off topic here, but what else is new!

gmichael

10-15-2009, 08:23 AM

I wasn't being sarcastic; were you? White people - the majority, the powerful, the "rulers" of America - will never face the racism that black people do. Even if you face racism as an individual in high school, that racism is contained in a local environment and does not represent the history of the country you do.

That's why the word "nigger" will always be more powerful than the word "cracker". Call me a cracker, sure. I don't care; that word is powerless. Nigger, though? That's a strong word not because what it means right now, but what baggage it carries along with it. It's really easy for white people to dismiss racism or claim that they have faced racism; it's not the same. At all.

I call this a racist post. You are still saying that someone (white or otherwise) can not understand something based on the color of their skin. That is about as racist as it gets.
I'm sure that as a whole, more black people have been discriminated against than whites, but that doesn't mean that no whites have even been discriminated against or have no clue what it's like. I was beat up several times in HS for no reason other than the color of my skin. And they didn't call me "cracker". What a joke that is. They called me white @sshole. But do you know what I noticed back then? That it wasn't all the non-whites who were racist. It was only a small group who were general jerks in every way. Many of the rest were normal people just like me. They were just as smart and just as nice. Plenty were nicer and smarter. So I learned not to judge people by the color of their skin. Maybe you should too.

Alex2507

10-15-2009, 08:46 AM

Now I'm not saying racism doesn't exist towards white people ...

In Markham, it doesn't.

Adam talked about outright fear of physical harm. I mentioned being treated like I was less than in a Home Depot. So the point gets made about that it's not the same as being a minority in a racist country ... please. The whole country isn't anything ... good or bad. My reaction was to finish up my business in Dade, get out and never go back. Not even for work. Rhode Island is just a pit stop on my way to Utah. Here they can single me out because I'm not short, dark and hairy enough with an absolute fascination for vowels. :eek:

My point is that people are people and whites don't own a patent on being cornholes. ;)

Looks like we're way off topic here, but what else is new!

Back on topic. I would personally like to congratulate President Obama. I think he should look into one of these (http://www.autospies.com/images/users/iepurilah/Lamborghini_Embolado_01_by_sefsdesign.jpg) seeing as how he has all that extra money. That way nobody could say he gave it to the wrong charity. ;) :p

darien87

10-15-2009, 11:53 AM

Maybe we can start poll in the steam for all us white folk to get a concencus if they would be offended by being called a cracker. Please add one vote for; it would make me laugh . :D

The one that makes me laugh is "porch monkey". I don't even know what it means, but it just sounds funny. If somebody called me a porch monkey, I'd probably start cracking up.

Another funny one is tar baby. Some racial slurs are just silly.

MinusTheBear

10-15-2009, 12:49 PM

The one that makes me laugh is "porch monkey". I don't even know what it means

Alex2507 getting wasted on his front porch?

Schupo

10-15-2009, 12:51 PM

I call this a racist post. You are still saying that someone (white or otherwise) can not understand something based on the color of their skin. That is about as racist as it gets.

White people can know what it's like to be black? That's news to me. Don't be ignorant; this isn't racism, it's just obvious.

We're talking about dealing with racism of a specific caliber. It's quite easy to just claim that I'm making racist statements because I'm talking about race. Ignoring race as a factor altogether is simply being ignorant; racial inequalities exist, period. Until we can accept that we are, in fact, different (even if it's just the color of our skin), then progress can't be made. We first need to acknowledge differences, and then accept those differences as superficial. "I don't see color" makes the problem worse; it puts blinders on towards a problem.

gmichael

10-15-2009, 01:27 PM

White people can know what it's like to be black? That's news to me. Don't be ignorant; this isn't racism, it's just obvious.

We're talking about dealing with racism of a specific caliber. It's quite easy to just claim that I'm making racist statements because I'm talking about race. Ignoring race as a factor altogether is simply being ignorant; racial inequalities exist, period. Until we can accept that we are, in fact, different (even if it's just the color of our skin), then progress can't be made. We first need to acknowledge differences, and then accept those differences as superficial. "I don't see color" makes the problem worse; it puts blinders on towards a problem.

I never said a white person could know what it's like to be black. Only that they can understand racism. Don't be so obviously ignorant.

Am I wasting my time trying to reason with you? Should I just let you be?

It's easy for me to state that you are making racist remarks, because that is what you are doing.
Who is ignoring race? I'm only saying that it doesn't make a person good or bad, or unable to understand something. No one here has said anything about racial inequalities not existing. Only that we can understand. Do you get that yet?

You are the only one so far saying that someone can or can not understand something based on the color or their skin. Can't you see how racist that is?

Schupo

10-15-2009, 01:44 PM

You are the only one so far saying that someone can or can not understand something based on the color or their skin. Can't you see how racist that is?

When you're talking about understanding what it's like to have a certain skin color, then it isn't racist to say "you wouldn't know what it's like because you're white". Can you see how basic this is?

gmichael

10-15-2009, 01:54 PM

When you're talking about understanding what it's like to have a certain skin color, then it isn't racist to say "you wouldn't know what it's like because you're white". Can you see how basic this is?

Sure can, but never said that. I said that I can understand what it's like to be treated unfairly because of the color of my skin. Really very basic difference but you keep missing it.

highfigh

10-15-2009, 02:19 PM

White people can know what it's like to be black? That's news to me. Don't be ignorant; this isn't racism, it's just obvious.

We're talking about dealing with racism of a specific caliber. It's quite easy to just claim that I'm making racist statements because I'm talking about race. Ignoring race as a factor altogether is simply being ignorant; racial inequalities exist, period. Until we can accept that we are, in fact, different (even if it's just the color of our skin), then progress can't be made. We first need to acknowledge differences, and then accept those differences as superficial. "I don't see color" makes the problem worse; it puts blinders on towards a problem.

There's a big difference between ignoring a difference and refusing to let it be a problem in someone's mind, speech and actions. For a person to be racist, they would place one "race" above another or all others, in their opinion. What they do about it will be different from one person to another. Accepting differences should be the goal but defining them is a big problem because some will always see the shortcomings of some as their basis for their argument. If all of a group were dumb as a bag of hammers, that's one thing but refusing to believe that some of that same group are absolutely brilliant after interacting with only a small number is where many come to a bad conclusion.

The "Different=bad" idea needs to go the way of the dinosaur. All groups I can think of need to improve- none will be perfect but improving would be a great goal.

markw

10-15-2009, 03:46 PM

redass

10-15-2009, 04:10 PM

Park a nice, new car in central ward Newark and go for a walk while well dressed at night for a few hours dressed well and then tell me you don't know what prejudice is, if you can walk.

you don't think there is any difference between a ghetto neighborhood and an entire nation's institutional past, including the laws and the culture? one made somebody a second tier citizen in every way, the other is just a bunch of broke asshats who most likely represent a small percentage of the local population. granted, I don't think most places are that bad today, but that supporter of segregation and steaming pile of human feces strom thurmond was still in office as a united states senator in 2003; it was not that long ago.

adwilk

10-15-2009, 04:22 PM

you don't think there is any difference between a ghetto neighborhood and an entire nation's institutional past, including the laws and the culture? one made somebody a second tier citizen in every way, the other is just a bunch of broke asshats who most likely represent a small percentage of the local population. granted, I don't think most places are that bad today, but that supporter of segregation and steaming pile of human feces strom thurmond was still in office as a united states senator in 2003; it was not that long ago.

racism is racism, prejudice is prejudice, hatred is hatred....

It doesn't matter the source or the target. For anybody thinking that whites don't know what its like to experience any of those things then you're mistaken or ignorant.

I'm effing sick of a society today where my generation has to somehow "right" the wrongs of our country's past. I didn't do anything to anybody, quit telling me that I don't have the right to feel discriminated against and that it isn't real.

Schupo

10-15-2009, 04:38 PM

I'm effing sick of a society today where my generation has to somehow "right" the wrongs of our country's past. I didn't do anything to anybody, quit telling me that I don't have the right to feel discriminated against and that it isn't real.

This is where you're mistaken! It isn't our country's PAST. It's our country's PRESENT. Racism is still alive and well in so many aspects of our society and government. Institutionalized racism is not a thing of the past.

You're right on some things; I don't owe anybody anything for racial inequality. I didn't do a thing. Reparations are bull. But like redass said, Strom Thurmond was a senator up until just a few years ago. Everything isn't fine; Rush Limbaugh is one of the most popular radio hosts on the airwaves, and he's so blatantly racist it's disgusting. Bill O'Reilly, too. If our racism was really in the past, these two would be on the streets.

gmichael

10-15-2009, 04:43 PM

This is where you're mistaken! It isn't our country's PAST. It's our country's PRESENT. Racism is still alive and well in so many aspects of our society and government. Institutionalized racism is not a thing of the past.

You're right on some things; I don't owe anybody anything for racial inequality. I didn't do a thing. Reparations are bull. But like redass said, Strom Thurmond was a senator up until just a few years ago. Everything isn't fine; Rush Limbaugh is one of the most popular radio hosts on the airwaves, and he's so blatantly racist it's disgusting. Bill O'Reilly, too. If our racism was really in the past, these two would be on the streets.

Racism is most definately not a thing of the past. I see it in many ways in many places. Often it's the unspoken kind that hurts the most. Progress has been made, but there is still more to go.

Oh, and Rush is an idiot.

Matt34

10-15-2009, 05:09 PM

This is where you're mistaken! It isn't our country's PAST. It's our country's PRESENT. Racism is still alive and well in so many aspects of our society and government. Institutionalized racism is not a thing of the past.

You're right on some things; I don't owe anybody anything for racial inequality. I didn't do a thing. Reparations are bull. But like redass said, Strom Thurmond was a senator up until just a few years ago. Everything isn't fine; Rush Limbaugh is one of the most popular radio hosts on the airwaves, and he's so blatantly racist it's disgusting. Bill O'Reilly, too. If our racism was really in the past, these two would be on the streets.

You can also thank folks like Al Sharpton who have based their entire career on turning any issue involving a minority into one of discrimination weather it was warranted or not. I see racism every day working for the fed, it's called affirmative action.

markw

10-15-2009, 06:22 PM

you don't think there is any difference between a ghetto neighborhood and an entire nation's institutional past, including the laws and the culture? one made somebody a second tier citizen in every way, the other is just a bunch of broke asshats who most likely represent a small percentage of the local population. granted, I don't think most places are that bad today, but that supporter of segregation and steaming pile of human feces strom thurmond was still in office as a united states senator in 2003; it was not that long ago.And, you obviously know nothing of the neighborhoods to which I refer. Yes, racisim is still strong and healthy in them, but not from the parties you wouls like to believe. If you doubt me, try it.

Then again, there 's Bed/Sty in Brooklyn if Newark isn't to your liking. Or perhaps East Orange or Camden in NJ.

highfigh

10-15-2009, 09:59 PM

racism is racism, prejudice is prejudice, hatred is hatred....

It doesn't matter the source or the target. For anybody thinking that whites don't know what its like to experience any of those things then you're mistaken or ignorant.

I'm effing sick of a society today where my generation has to somehow "right" the wrongs of our country's past. I didn't do anything to anybody, quit telling me that I don't have the right to feel discriminated against and that it isn't real.

Every generation's adults look back at the next generation's kids and act like they're disappointed, shaking their heads and saying "There goes a future President" and every generation has to fix the previous generation's screw ups. As much as people revere the generation who fought, died and sacrificed during WWII, that generation taught the next generation about life, work, and a lot of other life lessons, including the bad attitudes and ideas about people they didn't like for one reason or another.

Re: "your generation has to somehow "right" the wrongs of our country's past."- Yours isn't the first that felt that others expected them to do this and it won't be the last. Be happy you aren't trying to make amends for parents who owned slaves or gassed millions in the death camps of WWII.

Very few unbiased people exist, IMO. Some act on this and some don't but when someone does, anyone who could be a target can be, under the right circumstances.

adwilk

10-15-2009, 10:19 PM

Re: "your generation has to somehow "right" the wrongs of our country's past."- Yours isn't the first that felt that others expected them to do this and it won't be the last. Be happy you aren't trying to make amends for parents who owned slaves or gassed millions in the death camps of WWII.

To be fair, I didn't specifically mean "my" generation. Sometimes its difficult to convey one's feelings in a text format. I meant the generalization that all of us have to make up the for the mistakes. I also meant specifically that it seems whites will be in debt to blacks for their actions in the past.

Matt mentioned affirmative action. While I'm not so naive to believe that without it things would be perfectly fair, but I do think that in some ways its equally unfair that it does exist. There are jobs, grants, and scholarships that I can't qualify because of the color of my skin. I can't think of any that I qualify for that another race couldn't. Thats not fair. http://www.bombsquadgolf.com/invboard_release/upload/style_emoticons/default/boohoo.gif

Schupo

10-16-2009, 03:29 AM

You can also thank folks like Al Sharpton who have based their entire career on turning any issue involving a minority into one of discrimination weather it was warranted or not. I see racism every day working for the fed, it's called affirmative action.

Al Sharpton can kiss my ***.

njedpx3

10-16-2009, 07:09 AM

I have read through this who thread, albiet most of it off-topic, and haven't seen this thought mentioned ...

The follwing idea has been dicsussed on various talk shows, but I haven't seen it mentioned here. I give it some credence, but would like to hear other Audioholic's thoughts on the subject:

Is it possible that Barack Obama was given the NPP to influence the outcome of the Afghanistan war and possible futures world conflicts ?

... after being named NPP recipient ... it would influence that world leader, Obama, would NOT increase the troop count significantly, 40,000 as General McChrystal has requested and basically annihilating Afghanistan ... not the move of a Peace Prize recipient ??

What are your thoughts of this thought train ?? :confused: Any credence??

Don't Shoot Me-- Just The Messenger,

Have a Great Day -Peace to All- No matter the Color,

Forest Man :)

Schupo

10-16-2009, 12:38 PM

redass

10-19-2009, 05:33 PM

And, you obviously know nothing of the neighborhoods to which I refer. Yes, racisim is still strong and healthy in them, but not from the parties you wouls like to believe. If you doubt me, try it.

Then again, there 's Bed/Sty in Brooklyn if Newark isn't to your liking. Or perhaps East Orange or Camden in NJ.

yeah, I refer to the past when pointing out how things are different from now and the past. it sure seemed reasonable to me when I did it... should I compare and contrast the past with the future next time instead of the past? :confused:

when it comes to my home ghetto, I'll just stick to compton, a place I happen to visit 5 out of 7 days each week. I guess they aren't as racist in CA as in Jersey, because they seem to be willing to rob anyone - I've seen "Friday". :cool:
not sure I understand your comment about not knowing those neighborhoods.... if I knew of these places... a few neighborhoods that I can easily avoid while still bettering my life... would they then be comparable to the racist institutional past of the entire nation? I did say, "I don't think most places are that bad today," when referring to the racially charged history of this nation.

Alex2507

10-19-2009, 05:41 PM

Al Sharpton can kiss my ***.

I'm gonna have to shut this down for that racist remark.
Next time play nice. This is your last warning.

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/Alex2507Audio/Goofy%20Stuff/threadclosed.gif

I hope this isn't crossing any lines. Impersonating a somebody. :)

njedpx3

10-19-2009, 07:20 PM

I'm gonna have to shut this down for that racist remark.
Next time play nice. This is your last warning.

http://i974.photobucket.com/albums/ae227/Alex2507Audio/Goofy%20Stuff/threadclosed.gif

I hope this isn't crossing any lines. Impersonating a somebody. :)

Al is sharp because he has "sharp" in his last name, at least you don't have Shelia Jackson Lee as your Congress Woman.

Peace to All

Forest Man

P.S. = Just found out I have to buy a "grinder" pump

Rickster71

10-20-2009, 06:58 AM

There isn’t a country anywhere, that has done more to lift up blacks than 'Racist' white America.

Trillions have been spent since the 60’s on welfare, food
stamps, rent supplements, Section-8 housing,
Pell grants, student loans, legal
services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits
and poverty programs designed to bring the
African-American community into the mainstream.

Government, businesses, and colleges have engaged in
discrimination against white folks -- with
Affirmative Action programs, contract set-asides and
quotas -- to advance black applicants over white
applicants.

JerryLove

10-20-2009, 08:34 AM

Matt34

10-20-2009, 09:54 AM

What about the countries in Africa that seized white farmer's lands and gave it to black farmers? They did more.

Of course, the reason America is sometimes called "racist" is because of all we've done to put down people over race.

Well, and you just called us racist in saying that we preference black people.

That action was backed by the Pan African Congress, a radical black Marxist group. You really think that would be a better or more fullfilling approach than what this country has done? Since when has Africa been at the top of the pillar as far as human rights go?

No argument here but we weren't the worse and have made huge strides in a very short amount of time.

No he didn't, he just listed some of the programs the government saw fit to help compensate African-American's.

JerryLove

10-20-2009, 12:45 PM

That action was backed by the Pan African Congress, a radical black Marxist group. You really think that would be a better or more fullfilling approach than what this country has done? Since when has Africa been at the top of the pillar as far as human rights go? When did "better" or "good for human rights" come up? I must have missed that in the posting.

I wasn't discussing the best approach, just commenting on the post I quoted.

No argument here but we weren't the worse and have made huge strides in a very short amount of time. Agreed

No he didn't, he just listed some of the programs the government saw fit to help compensate African-American's. how can something "to advance black applicants over white applicants" be anything but racist?

Schupo

10-20-2009, 01:18 PM

how can something "to advance black applicants over white applicants" be anything but racist?

White applicants aren't turned away because of the color of their skin. Should we just accept that there is racism in the hiring practices of many companies in America? After all, we can't prove that just because the staff is 100% white that there are racist practices in place. What would you suggest we do?

Matt34

10-20-2009, 02:08 PM

When did "better" or "good for human rights" come up? I must have missed that in the posting.

I wasn't discussing the best approach, just commenting on the post I quoted.

Agreed

how can something "to advance black applicants over white applicants" be anything but racist?

Your three word counter was, "they did more" along with the reference to Africa, hence my response. AFAIK Zimbabwe was the only government to offically back that action. Other countries stood back and did nothing when squatters and the such railied behind the Zimbabwe flag and forceable took the farms away. Rick said, "There isn’t a country anywhere, that has done more tolift up blacks." I take ,"they did more" as doing better/going above what this country has done with sustainable, quaility programs....not radical, largely unsupported and unlawful movements. The action you described in Africa has been neither. :rolleyes:

JerryLove

10-20-2009, 02:17 PM

White applicants aren't turned away because of the color of their skin. Should we just accept that there is racism in the hiring practices of many companies in America? After all, we can't prove that just because the staff is 100% white that there are racist practices in place. What would you suggest we do? Did I say any of that? I just said that selecting an applicant based on their race was racist, and that saying a country does that is saying that it engages in racist activities. Do you believe either of those statements is false?

Since you ask: I'm not a big fan of race-based affirmative action. It's an attempt to sacrifice individual liberties (the right of this particular white guy to be hired, if the company chooses) for group rights (attempting to make the black population on parity in hiring).

If a company is discriminating against black people, then charge them. Don't try to counter one black man not getting hired because he's black by making some other white man not get hired because he's white.

If you have a population in trouble (for example: smart poor people aren't getting into college because their upbringing hurts their college admissions (less activities, less opportunity for AP classes, less school support); then effect policy to help those groups: but even then I don't think quotas are the answer.

JerryLove

10-20-2009, 02:21 PM

Rick said, "There isn’t a country anywhere, that has done more tolift up blacks." I take ,"they did more" as doing better/going above what this country has done with sustainable, quaility programs....not radical, largely unsupported and unlawful movements. The action you described in Africa has been neither. What's been done in Africa is generally awful.

Somehow I'm reminded of Harry Potter "Valdemort did great things.... Terrible, but great".

Would you have taken that first sentence as condoning Valdemort? I can acknowledge that Peter the Great, and Stalin later, modernized Russia: that they did great things, even as I condemn what they did.

Schupo

10-20-2009, 02:27 PM

If a company is discriminating against black people, then charge them.

How can you prove this?

JerryLove

10-20-2009, 02:30 PM

How can you prove this? Like so many crimes: it's not a simple thing to do (in essence, it's difficult to determine intent). Bluntly, and especially for small companies, it's easy to get away with.

In large companies, there's a mix of unreasonable statistics, and a paper (well, usually electronic) trail.

Discrimination cases have certainly been won before.

highfigh

10-20-2009, 03:06 PM

White applicants aren't turned away because of the color of their skin. Should we just accept that there is racism in the hiring practices of many companies in America? After all, we can't prove that just because the staff is 100% white that there are racist practices in place. What would you suggest we do?

Yes, they are. If someone gets preferential treatment because they're not white, it's discriminating against the white person. It's going according to the Affirmative Action guidelines but look at what it's trying to accomplish- more jobs given to people of color, not based soley on the qualifications of the applicant.

Do you want to be forced to hire someone based on their color or be free to choose the best person for the job, based on their qualifications?

A local restaurant received a visit from the local chapter of the NAACP. The owner asked of he could help them (they didn't seem to want to sit and eat) and they said, "I see that you have some white people, some Mexican people and some Asian people. Don't you like diversity?". He replied, "We like diversity a lot. We have some thin people, some fat ones, some short and some tall".

Schupo

10-20-2009, 04:46 PM

Yes, they are. If someone gets preferential treatment because they're not white, it's discriminating against the white person. It's going according to the Affirmative Action guidelines but look at what it's trying to accomplish- more jobs given to people of color, not based soley on the qualifications of the applicant.

I meant without Affirmative Action. I don't believe that we should discriminate against anybody, regardless of race, but I also don't believe that one person's rights should supersede the rights of an entire group of people. It's also frustrating listening to white people complain about how they're being discriminated against. Stop complaining, you aren't a victim.

NicolasKL

10-20-2009, 04:47 PM

Like so many crimes: it's not a simple thing to do (in essence, it's difficult to determine intent). Bluntly, and especially for small companies, it's easy to get away with.

Which is why your "solution" doesn't work.

JerryLove

10-20-2009, 08:17 PM

I meant without Affirmative Action. I don't believe that we should discriminate against anybody, regardless of race, but I also don't believe that one person's rights should supersede the rights of an entire group of people. So if I don't get a job that I was most qualified for and for which the hiring manager wanted me because they needed a black person to meet quote, that helps the entire black community?

There's a racial "right" to get jobs over more qualified applicants?

It's also frustrating listening to white people complain about how they're being discriminated against. Stop complaining, you aren't a victim. A jobless person who did not get the job he interviewed for because of his race is not a victim of racism? How so?

JerryLove

10-20-2009, 08:25 PM

Still, I think we are falling off-topic.

NicolasKL

10-21-2009, 10:41 AM

So if I don't get a job that I was most qualified for and for which the hiring manager wanted me because they needed a black person to meet quote, that helps the entire black community?

There's a racial "right" to get jobs over more qualified applicants?

A jobless person who did not get the job he interviewed for because of his race is not a victim of racism? How so?

We know black people are discriminated against. If you think otherwise, you're a nut.

AA can eliminate some of the discrimination against blacks, at the expense of occasionally discriminating against whites.

So you would prefer that there be no discrimination against whites, even if it means there is more discrimination against blacks. Let me ask, are you white?

Let me also ask, which race is going to be able to more easily bear the brunt of some discrimination, the race that makes up ~70% of the country's population, or the race that spent 200 years being owned by that other race, plus was the "beneficiary" of state sanctioned/enforced racism for another hundred years after that.

There's no doubt that eventually affirmative action should be eliminated (ie, when it's no longer needed). There's also no doubt that the reason it was instituted STILL exists today.

I certainly wouldn't assume that everything would be healed and all hunky dory only 40 years after the cessation of government racism. I'd say at a bare minimum we could look at getting rid of AA the day that the last person that had to give their seat up on a bus to a white person and couldn't use the whites only bathroom dies.