Multichannel CASD/CD/CD-R Player

[fired up]

Greetings:

Just saw typo in post: CASD should be SACD!

Please recommend a few different Multichannel SACD/CD/CD-R Players for a budget, middle or Hi-End system. Focus more on budget and middle ground as that is where I will most likely purchase at price point wise.

I heard that Oppos are agreat value but to appreciate the Audio only features - a DAC is required. What is DAC? What does it do? Which should I buy that is a good deal to pair with Oppo if I go that route? Might as well recommend some DAC's as well for Oppo so I know what to get.

Thanks,

Eddie

[j_garcia]

Try the Oppos without a DAC for now and see what you think. If you are happy with it already, then no need to spend more... I haven't heard anyone discussing the 983's audio perfomance really yet, so I'd say go with the 980 which had a better design audio-wise than the 981. I have used my 980 for SACD/DVD-A and it does almost as well as my $1K(MSRP) 2900, so I have no complaints with it.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Another SACD/DVD-Audio player to consider from Harman Kardon for $229:

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4155585

[fired up]

Thanks! Checking out recommendations now.

Eddie

[dobyblue]

One nice thing about the Oppo 980H is it's one of the few NA models available with DSD native output.

Most other DSD players are European models.

[fired up]

To all,

What is DSD native output and how will that help me? What is difference between Oppo 980H, 981H and 983H models? They all seem the same to me. I am new to this so please forgive my ignorance.

Also if I purchase a multichannel player - do I have the option of listening in stereo only if I prefer?

Thank You,

Eddie

[fired up]

Never mind - I saw that I could compare all three models on Oppo website.

What is DSD native output?

Eddie

[Pyrrho]

Never mind - I saw that I could compare all three models on Oppo website.

What is DSD native output?

Eddie

DSD is the format of the digital information on an SACD. Many SACD players convert DSD to PCM (another digital format, or, rather, group of formats) for output via HDMI, or even for internal processing (e.g., bass management, etc.). Most likely, you will never hear the difference (not to mention the fact that a lot of SACDs have been processed in PCM anyway, because it is easier to mix in PCM than DSD). But other than ease of managing the signal, there is no benefit to converting DSD to PCM, and "purists" want as little conversion as possible, and therefore prefer to have a player that outputs DSD. All else being equal, I would rather have a player that outputs DSD, but I would not buy a lessor player to get it.

With the Oppo players, if you have a receiver that can handle DSD via HDMI, and if you were only wanting the player for SACD playback, I would go with the DV-980H. But if I were also going to use it for DVD playback, I would go with a better model for that.

[fired up]

Thanks for the explanation Pyrrho.

Other than budget players like Oppo & the HK models mentioned - What else is out there in terms of high quality midprice $500 to $2K? I freed up a large chunk of my budget and don't want to skimp on a Multichannel SACD / CD/CD-R player as my source equipment.

Thanks,

Eddie

[dobyblue]

You can find a list of titles that utilize only DSD from the recording to the mastering here - http://www.sa-cd.net/dsd

[j_garcia]

I mentioned this to somone else previously, make sure there are a fair number of tiles that you are interested in before investing a lot of money in a high end system based around two formats that are essentially niche formats that may not stick around for the long haul.

[davidtwotrees]

I think fired up mentioned he is into classical........and there are more titles in that genre for sacd than you could ever listen to, with more coming out daily.

I have a Denon 3910.......the current model is 3930 (http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/DVDPlayersAndChangers.asp). Their flagship model is the 5910. MSRP's of $1500 and $3900 respectively. Most here would not reccomend these as they are standard defenition DVD players, not hi def blurays. My 3910 is a fine piece of equiptment and does multichannel music very well....
Marantz has some audiophile grade players, SA15S1 (http://us.marantz.com/Products/616.asp) that just do sacd/cd playback. Teac's Esoteric (http://www.teac.com/esoteric/Audio_Players_CD_SACD.html)line offers the whole gamut of universal players.......you can have the video and audio, or just audio. There are also some hi end sacd players that only do two channel for the purist.

I bought my Denon used for about $600 and it does not dissappoint. Hth.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thanks for the explanation Pyrrho.

Other than budget players like Oppo & the HK models mentioned - What else is out there in terms of high quality midprice $500 to $2K? I freed up a large chunk of my budget and don't want to skimp on a Multichannel SACD / CD/CD-R player as my source equipment.

Thanks,

Eddie

Denon DVD-3930CI is an outstanding SACD/DVD-Audio/CD/DVD player for around $950.

[Markov]

A pretty good all around mid-fi universal player (SACD/DVD/DVDA) with nice build quality and without and ‘audiophile’ price is the Marantz DV7001 (MSRP:800).

[Zer0beaT]

What's the word on the Denon 1940CI?

I've been considering this model as a replacement for a Pioneer DV588.

Would it be considered a better CD player than the Pioneer?

[h317]

Denon DVD-3930CI is an outstanding SACD/DVD-Audio/CD/DVD player for around $950.

Ditto that. I purchased a demo 3930CI unit two weeks ago. SACD/DVD-A playback quality is very very good. More impressive to me is it's DVD upscaling quality... much better than my BD player.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ditto that. I purchased a demo 3930CI unit two weeks ago. SACD/DVD-A playback quality is very very good. More impressive to me is it's DVD upscaling quality... much better than my BD player.

Tell us more about the 3930CI DVD upscaling compared to your BD player.

Which BD player do you have?

I thought about getting the Denon DVD-3800BDCI because I heard the upscaling will be 100% -- perfect -- passing all the tests. They said this Denon BD player has the same exact Audio/Video as the 3930CI (plus the BD part).

[fired up]

dobyblue,

I am so very grateful for the link you provided to sa-cd.net and now I know where to go shopping other than SCAmazon.com with their overpriced SACD's and CD's.

Thank you so very much!

Eddie

[fired up]

Greetings,

I don't think I made my request crystal clear and take full responsibility.

I am not looking for a Universal player that plays DVD or DVD-Audio.

I am looking for an Multichannel/Surround SACD player that is killer/stellar/phenomenal/the real deal!!!! The only other requirement is that it is able to also play Red Book standard 2 channel CD's as well as 2 channel SACD's.


I already have a DVD player.

Thanks,

Eddie

[h317]

Tell us more about the 3930CI DVD upscaling compared to your BD player.

Which BD player do you have?

I thought about getting the Denon DVD-3800BDCI because I heard the upscaling will be 100% -- perfect -- passing all the tests. They said this Denon BD player has the same exact Audio/Video as the 3930CI (plus the BD part).

I own a Sony BDS300. Not claiming to be an expert in this hobby, I just find the Denon produces a truer color comparing to my Sony with a lot of details. The only inconvenience is that I need to swith the HDMI setup every time I want to listen to SACD.

The Denon is an expensive unit (that's why I decided to get a demo unit) for sure. If you have not owned a BD player yet and that the 3800BDCI uses the same chip as the 3930, then you may want to seriously consider that. I believe audioholics has done a professional review on the 3930CI. Read that as well. Better yet, go auditon the unit at your deal.

[avliner]

Hi guys,

that's not a big deal to me for sure, but have heard some people saying that this player always downconverts DSD into PCM bitsreams...

Is that correct??
I'm sure I could never tell the difference between both, but would like to know that for sure. According to Oppo, it does, but is that really true?

Regards, Chuck

[Biggiesized]

No, the Oppo 980 is a transport as well. It's the only one in the product line that can output a native DSD bitstream. I think it's the cheapest product that will fulfill all your needs provided that a) you have a receiver and b) it can decode DSD.

[j_garcia]

No, the Oppo 980 is a transport as well. It's the only one in the product line that can output a native DSD bitstream.

The 980 is one of very few players that can do this actually.

[avliner]

Thanks Biggie,

wow, didn't know the 980H was a transport player...
Maybe that's why people are saying it does not output raw DSD bitstreams, though.

So the principle is the same as a BD player that needs to be decoded in the AVR, right?

Didn't know also that any AVR would have to decode DSD...well most do decode PCM, which is basically the same thing and perhaps that's the reason for all this DSD/PCM confusion.

Would like to hear more about that, though.

Regards, Chuck

[Biggiesized]

The 980H can both output a native DSD bitstream AND decode it to output PCM. If it does the latter, then it will downsample it to something like 88.2 kHz.

A BD player that cannot decode certain high resolution audio codecs like DTS-HD HR/MA and has to bitstream them, then acts as a transport for that digital information.

In order to retain the advantages that DSD offers, it's advisable to keep the audio information in the native DSD bitstream until it needs to be decoded for loudspeaker playback. Anytime you change DSD to PCM, you're actually altering the sound and nature of the recording. It'll still sound fantastic, but not precisely as it was meant.

[avliner]

Biggie,

thanks for the explanation. All clear now regarding to the 980H.

One last question on the AVR side, though:

if you got one that processes LPCM, you'll be fine for the DSD or you do need specifically on AVR that accepts the raw DSD streams?

AFAIK, the player is the only one that needs to have the DSD chipset, right?

Could you please elaborate on that either?

Regards, Chuck

[Pyrrho]

Greetings,

I don't think I made my request crystal clear and take full responsibility.

I am not looking for a Universal player that plays DVD or DVD-Audio.

I am looking for an Multichannel/Surround SACD player that is killer/stellar/phenomenal/the real deal!!!! The only other requirement is that it is able to also play Red Book standard 2 channel CD's as well as 2 channel SACD's.


I already have a DVD player.

Thanks,

Eddie

What sort of connection will you be using? If you have a receiver that can accept DSD via HDMI, the Oppo DV-980H would be a smart buy. There is no sense in spending extra for fancy D/A converters one isn't going to be use anyway. If you want to use analog connections, then there are better players (such as the Oppo DV-983H, as well as models from other manufacturers), though whether you will actually hear a difference between the inexpensive Oppo and better models is open to question.

[Pyrrho]

Biggie,

thanks for the explanation. All clear now regarding to the 980H.

One last question on the AVR side, though:

if you got one that processes LPCM, you'll be fine for the DSD or you do need specifically on AVR that accepts the raw DSD streams?

AFAIK, the player is the only one that needs to have the DSD chipset, right?

Could you please elaborate on that either?

Regards, Chuck

If you are going to use the DSD output of the Oppo DV-980H, you need something that can handle the DSD signal. But if you want a converted PCM signal, or to use the multichannel analog output, then you don't need DSD capability in your receiver.

[avliner]

Biggie & Pyrrho,

thanks a lot guys, for the concise explanation:).

Regards, Chuck

[dobyblue]

Biggie,

thanks for the explanation. All clear now regarding to the 980H.

One last question on the AVR side, though:

if you got one that processes LPCM, you'll be fine for the DSD or you do need specifically on AVR that accepts the raw DSD streams?

AFAIK, the player is the only one that needs to have the DSD chipset, right?

Could you please elaborate on that either?

Regards, Chuck

The receiver needs to have a chipset with DSD-capable DAC's.

Then it's also worth noting how the receiver handles it. Does it decode it to PCM or is it capable of straight DSD>Analog conversion.

The Pioneer Elite's for example, 9x series, convert to PCM.
The Denon, Yamaha and Onkyo receivers (specific models) can convert from DSD>analog without hitting the PCM realm, using some form of "DSD Direct" mode.

You might also consider which DAC's are being used as SACD has a dynamic range of 120 dB. The PCM1796 and PCM1792 chips have dynamic range of 123dB and 132dB respectively and are both capable of DSD>analog should the manufacturer implement it.

A number of the current receivers have PCM1791A DAC's, which have a dynamic range of 113dB.

Here’s a short list, not including the Pioneer Elite receivers as they don’t support DSD>Analog, which if you’re a purist you may be looking for:

Burr-Brown PCM1791A 113dB SNR $ 3.00/ea Yamaha RX-V3800, Yamaha RX-V1800, Denon 3808, 4308 and DVD-2930CI
Burr-Brown PCM1796 123dB SNR $ 6.50/ea Onkyo 805/875/905, Denon 5308 and DVD-3930CI
Burr-Brown PCM1792A 127dB SNR $13.00/ea ?
Burr-Brown PCM1792 132dB SNR $13.65/ea Yamaha RX-Z9 and RX-Z11(DSD1792), Denon 5805ci and DVD-5910

I would imagine given the few manufacturers being discussed here that none of them have completely garbage components in the receiver that would render differences in the DAC’s useless, but that’s just my opinion; some may disagree with more knowledge.

[avliner]

Dobyblue,

thanks for the additional info:)

[Biggiesized]

Dobyblue, where did you procure that short list of A/V receivers that have those specific DACs?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Dobyblue, where did you procure that short list of A/V receivers that have those specific DACs?

http://www.yamaha.ca/av/PDFs/Receivers/RXZ9lit.pdf

http://www.audiophile.no/Vedlegg/Nyheter/Filer/Yamaha%20RX-Z11.pdf

Actually, the Yamaha Z11 has the PCM-1796 and the older Z9 has the PCM-1792.

[dobyblue]

Dobyblue, where did you procure that short list of A/V receivers that have those specific DACs?

Most companies should send you the chip information if you ask them for it. A chunk of the info was taken from AVS, with some additional receivers chips verified by myself with the companies.

Other times guys just take their receiver apart to look around it. I don't, but I think that's how the Onkyo's were verified; their customer service wasn't too helpful.

I could have sworn I read that the Z11 was using a DSD1792 chip, but perhaps that's only the European models? It wasn't an official Yamaha spec sheet though, so I'll update that little list to move the Z11 to the PCM1796 chip.