View Full Version : Power Conditioners- Mega Snake Oil??
<font color='#000000'>My music room is coming together nicely, and I'm starting to look into power conditioning. *I'm in an area with frequent lightening storms, so surge supression is a must. *
Wow- I must say that the stuff around power conditioning is at least the equal to what we read about cables, and the pricing is not minor either. *For example, there is one unit that just plugs into the wall, and doesn't actually connect to your audio system, for which the designer says:
""The Symphony’s designed to make coherent the random, chaotic motion of electrons in the components of the circuit design. Once made coherent, the electrons remain that way"
The Absolute Sound, of course, found layers and layers of deep transparancy, a reduction of grain, and significant improvement of inner detail and coherence. *Has anyone noticed that they always find this? * I'd really like to weld up a fine looking stainless steel box that weights about 40 pounds with a fancy looking faceplate, sent it to them with some fine sounding 'phisicks', and tell them to just place it beside their system, and see if they find the above * <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
In any case, has anyone really looked into what sort of line conditioning really works and makes some difference worth paying for?
My system is looking to be:
Copland CDA 822 high resolution CD player
Copland CSA29 *hybrid integrated amp
Thiel CS2.2 speakers</font>
Clint DeBoer
03-06-2004, 04:09 PM
<font color='#000080'>We're heading in that direction but will need to convince a few companies to play ball first. We're having some success with some excellent cable companies who are promoting their cables with real science and not make-believe - we hope to find the same with some power conditioning companies.</font>
<font color='#000000'>For the most part, I think power conditioners are a bunch of hype. I compared an $80 Tripp Lite vs. my $500 Monster Cable HTS3600. There was no difference in sound quality. The only improvement I noticed with the Monster unit was slightly better reduction of video noise (and I mean slight). It wasn't worth the price difference. Unfortunately for me I was already past the return date when I performed the test.
If you have a relatively new home, chances are that the power coming in will be clean and free from noise problems. Do you have noise problems now?</font>
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>ED27 : If you have a relatively new home, chances are that the power coming in will be clean and free from noise problems. *Do you have noise problems now?
Not so I've noticed- as I mentioned, we live in T-storm country, so I've got everything on surge suppressors. *In fact, we had a bolt hit close to the house about 2 years ago and it blew our indoor/outdoor thermometer. *We are also subject to brown out- I notice that Parts Express has Tripplite powerconditioners for under $200 which might make sense.
I was curious as to opinions as to the high priced stuff, like Gray's Power Company or Chang's. *Big claims are made, big prices are charged, so I thought it'd be worth discussing here.</font>
Martin_S
03-09-2004, 06:15 PM
<font color='#000000'>I recently went through a pretty heavy round of research into the subject. I pulled a dedicated 20 amp circuit for all the networking and home theater stuff, and I was eager to install some sort of esoteric power conditioning rig. I eventually decided against the esoteric and went with the more practical.
BTW, I’m kinda new to the site (witness my post count). I’m an audio engineer working these days in radio, and my area of expertise is more in content production (recording, mixing, editing, etc.). I’m not an expert in electronics, power distribution and grounding. But I do work with the RF engineers who are, and they’ve been a great resource on this subject.
One colleague said that all this power conditioning stuff is a solution to a problem, and you first need to make sure you actually have a problem. If your electric company is anything more than an outfit with a squirrel-powered generator, chances are your power is just fine. The power supply of a given component will deal with the typical voltage it’s seeing at your wall outlet, and whatever background EMI/RFI noise there is on the line ain’t *gonna be worth throwing a lot of money at. You’d probably go from having a really really quiet system, to a really really really quiet system, if there’s any difference at all (just ask ED27). However, we should all keep an eye on the development of this broadband-over-power line technology (internet service) that’s coming ‘round the bend. Sounds like a can of worms in the making.
Anyway, with all that said, that leaves the issue of surge protection. I’ve heard more than one story of an expensive TV getting fried in a thunderstorm. But more often than not, it was through the coax cable, not the AC line. Our current day A/V systems are an interconnected jungle involving AC, phone and coax lines (not to mention network and audio interconnects that can pass along surges). Damaging surges can come from all over the place. So be darn sure to have a proper grounding scheme on the outside of your house for any antenna, dish, and/or cable TV service. Aside from obvious safety issues, this ground scheme is also an important equipment protection measure.
So for my dedicated 20 amp circuit, I didn’t go for any “power conditioning”, namely, voltage stabilization. But I did get a surge protector from Surgex. It’s a 20 amp unit (http://www.surgex.com/products/sx15_20ne.html) that’s housed in a NEMA enclosure (looks like a little electrical sub-panel). I ran the circuit through my furnace room where I placed the Sugex, and the line then continues to the HT outlets. It protects the entire circuit, and it uses a type of protection known as “series mode”, as opposed to the typical MOV-based kind. Instead of shunting a surge to ground, it slowly dissipates a surge to neutral avoiding the dreaded “ground contamination” that I hear so much about in the audio bidness (if you want to know more, I can expand later… just trying to keep this post under a million words <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>). It’s a little spendy at $300, but it protects the whole circuit, it filters EMI/RFI, I don’t have to use bulky plug strips in the family room, and there are no MOVs to wear out (which they do over time). They also make versions that look more like power strips.
This is also a product aimed at the pro audio/video market, which seems to have a lot less tolerance of snake oil products. Surgex has a consumer brand called Empower aimed at the over-the-top home theater market, and the equivalent unit comes with a number of additional, yet unnecessary, features. And guess what, it costs a lot more.</font>
<font color='#000000'>Wow, thanks, that was very helpful. Excellent point about being sure that you've got a problem.
In the case of surge protection- we were subject to the Great Eastern Blackout of '03, when the power came back on, it fried my coffee grinder, one of the few things not on a surge protector (and, yes, I'd unplugged everything I could think of, but I've also had power failure that only lasted a minute or two). And, as I mentioned, we do have frequent thunderstorms in the spring and fall. I'll look into the product you mentioned.
In so far as the other products go- I suppose, if one wished to see, you'd have to be sure that you purchased things with a good return policy, and be sure to send it back if you couldn't hear a difference. Hmmmm- might be a way to evaluate some of this stuff too.</font>
ThA tRiXtA
03-09-2004, 09:33 PM
<font color='#000000'>hi - just a few questions - I am looking at getting this conditioner ---> CLICK HERE (http://www.monstercable.com/power/productPagePower.asp?pin=1219)
Any thoughts on this one?
also what is "ground contamination" and what is an MOV and why / how do they wear out?
Also, I am looknig at building a new house and incorpoerating a whole room just for home theatre into it... any suggestions on any topics for a dedicated room?
best regards,
Rob <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'></font>
<font color='#000000'>Hi,
Parts Express sells the Tripp Lite ISOBAR 6DBS SURGE SUPPRESSOR for $77.50 which I believe would be every bit as good as that Monster power bar for about 1/3 the price. *Trying to cut through the verbage, I think that all the Monster Power Bar is, is a good surge suppressor with RF filtering and coax and phone protection. I've had very good like with Tripp Lite products, and understand that they have an excellent reputation. Here's the description of it the Tripp Lite unit:
-------------
The premium protection option for all of your home electronics you currently own or buy in the future: satellite, home theatre, computer, Web TV, cable modem, PC TV, TV/VCR, stereo, DVD and more! Isobar's exclusive filter banks prevent noise contamination between connected equipment, eliminating static, video "snow," computer lock-ups and data errors. Two sets of coaxial connectors protect both cable/antenna lines and satellite receiver dish feeds simultaneously. Six outlets protect all of your home entertainment equipment. One-line protection stops surges on a "pay-per-view," phone or modem/fax line. 3 diagnostic indicators that alert you to line condition and if protection is present. Absorbs surge energy up to 2,850 joules. Features the $50,000 Ultimate Lifetime Insurance for surge related damage to unit and connected equipment. UL listed.</font>
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>ThA tRiXtA : Also, I am looknig at building a new house and incorpoerating a whole room just for home theatre into it... any suggestions on any topics for a dedicated room?
This deserves an entire thread just for itself. *I'm not sure that here in the electronics section is quite the right place, but none of the other forums quite jump out at me either. <STAFF??> *<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
There are many factors, starting with your intended use- dedicated or dual use (however defined, often wives have ideas that aren't quite in sync with the demands of HT/music- mine wanted to know why my listening chair couldn't be pushed to a side wall (that is at right angles to the speakers <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> )
What kind of budget are you looking at, both for special purpose modification and your equipment. *How about resale value- if a room gets too dedicated, then it limits the people who might be interested in it, and if you sell the house in 3-5 years, you won't come close to recouping your investment.
And so forth.... *One suggestion, get the 'Master Handbook of Acoustics' by Everest. *It's written so that you don't have to be an engineer to understand it, and it'll give you the background to make sensible acoustical decisions. *Parts Express sells it, if you're ordering from them, as does Amazon.
Anyhow, *we really should move this to it's own thread in a more appropriate forum, as it's a great topic. *<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'></font>
<font color='#000000'>Hi EdR - thank you for your great feedback!
So you think the monster filter is just as good as the isobar tripplite thingy, but just really really expensive?
I am truly wondering if anyone has some negative comments about it affecting sound quality or anything else. I read on some reviews about other monster units like this one that it cuts high frequencies or accentuates lower ones. Do these units negatively affect anything is my major concern. I have not been able to find a review for this specific unit.
As for the home theatre room, it will be strictly dedicated to home theatre / music, but about 90 % home theatre. At any rate it won't be dual use, just to house the system.
There will be no interference from the wife either, she loves this stuff just as much as I (VERY LUCKY!) So I can mold the room as I please.
I will not be reselling this house, this is why I want to do this right the first time... So I don't care about resale value.
As for the budget, is not unlimited, but as I said above, I want to do this right, so please everybody don't leave any stone unturned and we will see what we can do...
I am looking for any tips, hints or anything no matter how small or big.
Forexample I am wondering, for the seating position, what is the ideal couch position? Halfway in between the front wall and rear wall? 1/3rd of the room length from the rear wall?
Also I am still desiring to know what this gentlemen was referring to: "what is "ground contamination" and what is an MOV and why / how do they wear out?"
Best regards,
Rob</font>
Martin_S
03-10-2004, 05:18 PM
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>ThÄ tRiXtÄ : Also I am still desiring to know what this gentlemen was referring to: "what is "ground contamination" and what is an MOV and why / how do they wear out?"
Nearly all surge suppressors utilize a semiconductor known as a Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) that diverts power from the “hot” wire to ground when the voltage passes a certain threshold. I wouldn’t be surprised if the $2 MOV in your $10 plug strip is the same one in the $1500 Monster snake oil unit. MOVs *do* wear out over time--their effectiveness is reduced as they take more and more hits. If you have a power strip that doesn’t seem to work even though its breaker isn’t popped and the switch is on, the MOV is shot. Anyway, bottom line is: hot is diverted to ground during a surge.
Now the following is based on my (hopefully) logical conclusions based on various readings. Hell, at times, smoke was coming out of my ears. Buyer beware. Hopefully the EE folks in the forum will confirm. Or shoot down.
Consider the crazy interconnectedness of our audio/video/data systems (don’t forget about the phone and coax lines!). Some of this equipment uses earth ground (third AC prong) as a reference. Even though a given component doesn’t have a third prong on its AC cord, it may be connected via some kind of cable to a component that does. In other words, the chassis ground of any component probably meets up with earth ground, sooner or later.
Now cut to the MOV-based surge suppressor that’s sending thousands of volts-worth of surge to ground. Some of your gear is looking to ground for reference, and it’s interconnected with other gear. Zappo. This is the dreaded "ground contamination" that I've heard equipment designers mention. They speak of this as a bad thing, and I’m inclined to believe them.
I must confess that in all my years of carting equipment around, I’ve never had anything fry due to an MOV-based suppressor “contaminating the ground”. Then again, I think I’ve just been lucky enough to avoid any serious surges period. For a while there I was in charge of a $100k PA system without any power conditioning. That system did have $5k worth of power distribution (main cut-off, breaker panel, extension lines & outlets, etc.) which ultimately ensured a clean grounding scheme--as in hum/buzz, not "contamination". It was designed/built by Audio Analysts, an outfit that does gigantic touring systems, i.e., they know what they're doing. But there was no surge suppression (except for a couple of plug strips, probably with MOVs, for a few small components).
I should mention, though, that much of my reading on this topic came from the Surgex web site in their Knowledge Base (http://www.surgex.com/library.html) section. My point is that it would be fair to believe that this is all Surgex propaganda. However, the amount of documentation, scientific explanation and testing that they provide seems to be right in line with what this forum expects from manufacturers. Also, some of the testimonials they have come from people that I've heard of and are known to be legitimate authorities on such things.
My Surgex unit should arrive on Friday. I'm looking forward to my "layers and layers of deep transparancy, ...reduction of grain, and significant improvement of inner detail and coherence." *<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':;):'></font>
ThA tRiXtA
03-10-2004, 05:53 PM
<font color='#000000'>thanks for your comments sir <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'></font>
Clint DeBoer
03-10-2004, 08:19 PM
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Martin_S : <font color='#000000'>I’m an audio engineer working these days in radio, and my area of expertise is more in content production (recording, mixing, editing, etc.). I’m not an expert in electronics, power distribution and grounding. But I do work with the RF engineers who are, and they’ve been a great resource on this subject.</font>
<font color='#000080'>Man, you fit this site like a glove...
Nice post, good info.</font>
zipper
03-10-2004, 10:24 PM
<font color='#000000'>Good thread.I'm taking notes.
thA,
If I may make some suggestions, I would run at least 2 home runs of power back to your breaker box,dedicated solely for A/V equipment,with their own breakers. Also a run of some 3 or 4 pair CAT-5 phone wire,some quality coax(maybe 2 runs,cable & dish), &, if you can find some, a pair of fiber optic cables(doesn't need ends on them yet). Terminate one end of these where your system goes & the other out to where your utilities will enter the house.
I know some of this may sound like overkill,but if you plan on being there for a while it ALL may be of use in the future.</font>
ThA tRiXtA
03-10-2004, 11:48 PM
<font color='#000000'>Hi Zipper
Thank you very much for your suggestions, they are greatly appreciated. I am in the midst of working on the design plans for my house and all your suggestions are definately useful.
However, I am new to this house plan thing and sort of new to the home theatre subject, so please don't be mad when I ask you to explain your suggestions a bit.
what exactly do you mean by this "2 home runs of power back to your breaker box"?
"Also a run of some 3 or 4 pair CAT-5 phone wire" in this statement , what does the three or four pair mean? if this means have 3 to 4 phone lines / jacks in one room, I am unclear on the purpose of this.
As pertaining to your suggestion to prerun some quality coax, I could not agree with you more on this... I think cables running on the outside of walls look ugly as sin.
What brand of coax cable is considered good quality and where can I buy it?
Thanks very much for your help!
Rob</font>
zipper
03-11-2004, 01:01 AM
<font color='#000000'>Rob
Most runs of power in houses leave from the breaker box fed by,let's say a 20 amp breaker.They then will feed 2 or more outlets/light fixtures by "looping" the run. In other words,it will run into an outlet then back out of it & continue on to another outlet, so that you end up possibly having 2,3,4 or even more outlets being fed by one 20 amp breaker.By making a "home run",you terminate the wire only at one outlet,thus eliminating the possibility of interference from other electrical sources plugged into the run of wire that your A/V equipment is plugged into.Also helps to keep from ever overloading the circuits that your A/V is using.
The phone wire I mentioned is used for high-speed data transfer & is quite common these days. Standard phone wire is CAT-3(category 3) & is good for all voice & some data.CAT-5 is good for running both.There are usually 3,4, or more pairs of wire within a "phone wire".So with one run of "phone wire" you could have 3,4,or more different circuits or dial tones.I can see DSL service progressing to full T1's in the future, so having this wire in place will give you options,which is also why I suggested fiber.
As far as coax,I don't work much with it,but I believe RG-6 is is good for most applications. That is a size, or grade, of cable.Not sure that brand name matters a whole lot although I'm sure there are some better than others.
Have fun & good luck!</font>
<font color='#000000'>A couple of other thoughts. *We built our house about four years ago, like you we don't intend to move for a while. *
A few things from that experience to pass along. *Get more electrical service than you think you'll need. *We went with the 'standard', I believe 130 amp service, now our box is full and it'd cost a whole lot more to get more than it would have at build time.
Pay attention to outlets. *I had never lived in house that had either enough outlets nor in which I didn't have to move a couch to get one. *I had outlets placed so that in every room so that there is an outlet 12-18" from every corner- I also added about 6 extras to the kitchen and use them all. *It ended up being 36 more than code required, and I love it!! *Wherever you are, there's an outlet if you need one. *Left to their own devices contractors tend to put them in the middle of walls.
It's just the two of us (plus cats) and I built a loft and have the home theater up there. *Now with full 7.1 sound. *It works great and the sound is fantastic. *I just upgraded to a yamaha RX-V2400 receiver and for HT can't imagine needing better in this relatively small room. * I think I already reccommended the Everest book "Master Handbook of Acoustics"- given the level of investment, worth both the time and money investment (under $30)</font>
Dan Banquer
03-11-2004, 09:33 AM
<font color='#000000'>"and there are no MOVs to wear out (which they do over time). "
A very true statement. But I do have a few questions on this subject. Many of us in residential settings are not subject to repeated surges. A few times a year may well be more typical. Should those of us who use the MOV'S in this environment think about switching to the Surgex unit? *Is this really necessary for the environment described above?
*I would certainly understand if you live in Lightning Alley down in Florida that this would be a major concern.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *d.b.</font>
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Dan Banquer : Many of us in residential settings are not subject to repeated surges. A few times a year may well be more typical.
In a previous job, we had occation to monitor the voltage in our office outlet to see what was going on. *What we found was spikes in the 300 volt range 5-10 times a day, with one that hit 500 volts. *We never quite figured out why, but there they were, and it made a convincing case for surge suppression.
My understanding is (and jump in here any time you EE types *<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> ) that the collapse of the induction field when an electric motor switches off can put a transient spike back into the house wiring, so when a furnace/AC turns on and off, there could be several hundred volt transients, as well as things like washing machines and so forth. *Plus your neighbors could be hobby arc welders <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>
Thus, while huge thousand volt surges might never happen, it is possible in a residential area for your equipment to be seeing some 200+ volt spikes every day, which over time would wear out the MOV's. *I would greatly appreciate someone more knowledgeable than me to please correct me on this if I'm mistaken.</font>
ThA tRiXtA
03-11-2004, 01:19 PM
<font color='#000000'>Hi Zipper - thanks for your feedback to my questions...
So I should have one 20 amp breaker controlling one ac socket in the home theatre room? Sounds good, I will design that in. Thanks for the great suggestion!
I will prewire with the RG-6 too, thank you.
I didn't know that even phone line cable was subject to lack of quality... Do you have anything else to say on this topic?</font>
ThA tRiXtA
03-11-2004, 01:22 PM
<font color='#000000'>hi Edr
Thansk for your suggestion as well about the expanded breaker panel box. So 130 amps total is the average?
I, like yourself, hate when you have a cord that is just 2 inches shy of reaching an ac socket.. you better believe ill be loading up the sockets in every room...
<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>
Rob</font>
ThA tRiXtA
03-11-2004, 01:26 PM
<font color='#000000'>does anyone have any thoughts of prewiring speaker cable for existing or new formats of speaker configuration coming out over the next few years?
Currently i have a 6.1 setup, with the surrounds being direct radiating speakers, not bipole or dipole. I have one rear center.
I am wondering if I should wire dipole down the road, maybe two rear centers, what locations they should go, etc...
also, what is a good size of room in consideration of its purpose for mainly home theatre and a little music?</font>
Dan Banquer
03-11-2004, 01:32 PM
<font color='#000000'>EdR: Thanks for the info.
*After seeing info like that you've got me thinking. MOV's life may well be dependent on that good old energy under the curve concept. If that energy is continually large than the MOV's life will be shortened much more quickly. If the energy under the curve is short than MOV's life could be much more extended.
I guess The real question is how much energy they can take over a period of time, especially over "real time" conditions. I don't have an answer for that one.
*The other question I have is that when an MOV starts to decay, what are it's properties? I have observed an MOV that really got "whacked" and the MOV shorted out to blow the circuit breaker, which is exactly what it's supposed to do. When an MOV decays over a long period of time will it wind up doing the same?
* * * * * * d.b.
* * * * * * * *</font>
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Dan Banquer : EdR: Thanks for the info.
*After seeing info like that you've got me thinking. MOV's life may well be dependent on that good old energy under the curve concept. If that energy is continually large than the MOV's life will be shortened much more quickly. If the energy under the curve is short than MOV's life could be much more extended.
I guess The real question is how much energy they can take over a period of time, especially over "real time" conditions. I don't have an answer for that one.
*The other question I have is that when an MOV starts to decay, what are it's properties? I have observed an MOV that really got "whacked" and the MOV shorted out to blow the circuit breaker, which is exactly what it's supposed to do. When an MOV decays over a long period of time will it wind up doing the same?
* * * * * * d.b.
* * * * * * * *
Hi Dan,
I had a discussion with an Electrical Engineer who worked on some classified project at Hughs several years ago. *He told me that they were dealing with very sensitive circuits and needed extremely good surge suppression, before designing their own, they took a number of commercial units apart and discovered that the Tripp Lite Isobars had induction coils in front of their MOV that soaked up all the smaller (up to several hundred volt transients) stuff, so that the MOV's only got hit on a 'whopper' surge, thus they didn't degrade. *They come to the conclusion that they couldn't do much better, and even though they could afford anything, they went with the Tripp Lites. This was from about 10 years ago, but at that time, he felt that Tripp Lite IsoBars were superior to any of the other commercial products that they examined.
He also indicated that when MOV's degrade, the strip still works, and you have in effect, an unprotected powerstrip. *Again, if anyone knows better, I'd really like to know, as I've been working on that assumption.</font>
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>ThA tRiXtA : <font color='#000000'>hi Edr
Thansk for your suggestion as well about the expanded breaker panel box. So 130 amps total is the average?</font>
<font color='#000000'>Was, here. I might mention that we found a spec house that was in an ideal location- backed up on a really nice pond, only 3 miles from my wife's job, and a great basic floor plan that was only the poured basement. We bought it with the understanding that we could (and did) make major modifications. As a result, we ended up with a good 95% of what we'd have wanted if we'd started with an empty lot and architect, at less than half the price. So the 130 amp was the standard for that developer and this development.
If you're designing from the ground up, you'd just specify what you want and design it in. Our way worked for us, as the crews were here anyway, and there was a very good site super who needed to get all 12 home built, so minimal delays and hassles.</font>
Dan Banquer
03-11-2004, 02:51 PM
<font color='#000000'>Hi Ed;
* That makes sense to me; we are using a similar technique on protecting a High Voltage unit here at work. The only difference is that we are using transorbs instead of MOV's.
*Thanks for the info.
* * * * * * * * *d.b.</font>
ThA tRiXtA
03-11-2004, 03:10 PM
<font color='#000000'>Hi EdR - sounds like you got a nice place!
I hope mine turns out too.... I am kinda worried / stressed!</font>
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>ThA tRiXtA : <font color='#000000'>Hi EdR - sounds like you got a nice place!
I hope mine turns out too.... I am kinda worried / stressed!</font>
<font color='#000000'>Believe me, I understand- it was from Febuary through August to move in, than over a year of chasing defects with the builder- one bit of advice, assume nothing, do nothing on a handshake, and visit the build site (nicely) frequently. I built a solid relationship with the site super, to the point where he welcomed me coming by, and I inspected the house almost daily- being very low key when I saw something. He wanted to do a good job, so almost always, if I saw something that I didn't like and just asked him about it, he'd make it right. As a result, we've had many fewer issues than our neighbors, and I caught several things before the drywall went up that were very easy to fix, that would have been big bucks later.
It will be worth it though.</font>
ThA tRiXtA
03-11-2004, 05:57 PM
<font color='#000000'>yea it sure gets alot harder to do something after they mud the dry wall huh?</font>
TVSS Pro
07-29-2004, 04:23 PM
Gentlemen,
I will begin with the statement that I sell Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV)-based TVSS systems for a living. I’m also an A-V nut and a musician. Now that you know I'm biased, let me explain what I know in layman’s terms.
MOV's degrade over time for a couple of reasons. The primary cause is as their surge capacities are exceeded, they degrade. Similar to how a fuse blows at too high of a voltage, so do MOV’s. The MOV's found in Audio Application surge strips, like the Monster power bar I have on my Pioneer Elite 710 HD, are tiny and can take up to only a certain amount of voltage hit until they reach the pain threshold and begin degrading. Usually these smaller strips degrade rather quickly...read the fine print of your strip's manual and that should tell you the capacities and warn you of this issue. They are simply too small to take the big hits.
IEEE, the Electrical Industry's experts, therefore recommends that you approach lightning and surge suppression in a "Layered" format in what is referred to as the "Emerald" book.
Here is the quote from the experts:
(Chapter 8, Page 338)
“Facilities housing electronic load equipment of any type should have service entrances equipped with effective lightning protection in the form of listed category “C” surge protective devices, as specified in the IEEE Std C62.41.-1991. “
What they are saying is that in order to get the very best protection, you should seriously consider putting a "BIG OLE HUNKIN" (obviously my technical term) TVSS at the service entrance into your house or business. Located at your main breaker panel. If you have any sub-panels, you should put smaller ones there. Then the downline power strips and or power conditioners are therefore protected from the larger strikes and will not degrade.
Our industrial capacity TVSS units have very short leads and when properly installed at the panel they have a very short path to ground. And therefore they have one-billionth of a second response times. You cannot physically get this super fast kind of protection from a unit you have in your audio rack plugged into a wall unless you sink a ground rod right there.
The latest/ eighth-generation of these large TVSS systems are currently being sold exclusively by briopower.com out of Austin, Tx. (The company I work for.) The gentleman that patented/invented this stuff 30 years ago using NASA's research notes is named **** Diller (referred to as the Grandfather of the surge strip), and he claims there is no better protection than our Surgepure TVSS Plus system in existence, from a capacity and longevity perspective.
The reason these are better is that he has developed a way to manufacture very large capacity units using a Huge / Single MOV Design. In a multiple MOV design (a less expensive, degrading method to build these things), best attempts are made to size match an array of smaller capacity MOV's in order to keep their electrical switching points as close as possible, but one is ALWAYS weaker than the other and will be the first to go during a catastrophic hit, degrading the capabilities of that stoppage point.
A very neat benefit of a service entrance MOV is that in addition to protecting your Audio equipment from exterior surges, it also isolates each electrical circuit in your house from the other. This means that when your fridge or AC compressors switch on and off and generate big-ish transient voltages (notice lights dimming when your AC kicks on?), before that surge can get to the circuit that powers your audio (or the power conditioner there) it is sent to ground at the breaker box. After a TVSS panel installation your lights might still dim, but they will never get hit by “too high” of voltage again, and that is where the damage happens.
We’ve found that businesses that install a service entrance TVSS and sub-panel TVSS’s eliminate all transient voltage damage that they generate themselves. Studies show that 75-80 percent of electrical degradation (sometimes referred to as electrical corrosion or rust) is actually due to internally-generated transients. In other words, your own equipment kills your other equipment over time.
It is as important to protect your sub-panels too, if you have one. IEEE states:
“ In addition to surge protective devices installed in the service entrance equipment, it is recommended that additional surge protective devices of Category”B” or Category “A”, as specified in IEEE Std C62.41.1991, be applied to downstream electrical switchboards and panelboards, and panelboards on the secondary of separately derived systems if they support communications, information technology equipment, signaling, television, or other form of electronic load equipment.”
Once these systems are properly installed and eliminate transients you’re generating yourself, light bulbs start lasting FOUR TO TEN TIMES LONGER on average. Motors last two to four times longer and run more efficiently. And your power bill is very likely to go down (or not increase as much as power rates go up), as more optimum efficiencies of any electrical equipment are maintained longer, and all your electric “stuff” pulls less power over time.
Again this should be used in conjunction with regular power strips/line conditioners.
At briopower.com we know this stuff works so well that we partnered with Hartford insurance to offer equipment surge warranties for $500,000.00 for 15 years. Install our TVSS equipment and if any of your connected audio equipment gets hit or damaged afterwards by a surge or strike event, we repair/replace it for free, no deductable, non-subrogated.
I did not make that statement as an advertisement, rather to illustrate how effective panel-mount TVSS systems are.
Two final notes. The industrial TVSS devices are expensive, but are less than a top of the line Line Conditioner. One TVSS big enough to handle a service entrance runs about $2500, smaller ones for sub panels (if needed) run around $1500.00. But more often than not, these will pay for themselves in lowered electrical bills and lowered maintenance costs over time. And they protect EVERYTHING in your house, from alarm clocks to alarm systems.
You can also call your homeowners insurance to ask for a premium reduction after installation, and you can feel good about the environment because you consume less equipment, energy, and light bulbs/fixtures over time.
Oh, and if you install a TVSS system, be sure to check your refrigerator temps afterwards as it is not uncommon for them to literally become more efficient and get colder…to the point of freezing your veggies. :D
Jessjosh
07-30-2004, 12:22 PM
I have read a lot about the Shunyata Hydra Model 8 and I see that it has not been mentioned at all in this forum. It is called a "power distribution center" and has been awarded product of the year and the most wanted component award. I am not a techie and really do not understand exactly why it is claimed to improve the sound by getting rid of all the noise on the cables among other things. Does anyone on this forum have any objective information on this component? Thank you.
JRJ
caffeinetrip
08-07-2004, 03:37 PM
I used to work at Best Buy and sold $400 Monster Power Centers weekly...and $150-$200 Monster Power Strips daily. I told my customers that if they were buying a big screen TV or a surround sound system that they had to buy one. Here was my sales pitch...
"If you use one of those $10 white power strips from Target, your power will actually be bottle necked because they are designed for small applicances and will not allow enough power to go though to your big applience. That and the they won't even provide enough surge protection to your 50" Grand Wega, (or whatever), but the main benifit of these Power Centers is the filters that they have inside that act like a water filter for your electricity...you don't drink tap water anymore do you?"
Should I be stoned? I honestly have no idea if any of what I said was true, but it was my job and I figured that if what the monster reps, bb training, and managers said were true, then they defintly need a one, and if they were wrong...well okay stone me if you must.
As for myself, I had a long debate wheater or not to buy an expensive one for myself, and no one that worked there really knew for sure if they were worth the money even after our employee discount, which was 50% off all Monster Products. I wanted to buy the HTS 1000 ($149 retail) but ended up buying the Acoustic Research AP08V ($35 retail). I wish I had found this website earlier, but do you think that there is even a noticeable difference? Was any of that stuff I regurigated true?
My system composises of:
Yamaha RX-V800 Reciever
Energy Encore 6 Speakers and 2 matching subs.
Panasonic DVD Player
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