Power Conditioners- Mega Snake Oil??

EdR · Mar 6, 2004

My music room is coming together nicely, and I'm starting to look into power conditioning. I'm in an area with frequent lightening storms, so surge supression is a must.

Wow- I must say that the stuff around power conditioning is at least the equal to what we read about cables, and the pricing is not minor either. For example, there is one unit that just plugs into the wall, and doesn't actually connect to your audio system, for which the designer says:

""The Symphony’s designed to make coherent the random, chaotic motion of electrons in the components of the circuit design. Once made coherent, the electrons remain that way"

The Absolute Sound, of course, found layers and layers of deep transparancy, a reduction of grain, and significant improvement of inner detail and coherence. Has anyone noticed that they always find this? I'd really like to weld up a fine looking stainless steel box that weights about 40 pounds with a fancy looking faceplate, sent it to them with some fine sounding 'phisicks', and tell them to just place it beside their system, and see if they find the above

In any case, has anyone really looked into what sort of line conditioning really works and makes some difference worth paying for?

My system is looking to be:

Copland CDA 822 high resolution CD player
Copland CSA29 hybrid integrated amp
Thiel CS2.2 speakers

Audioholics · Mar 6, 2004

We're heading in that direction but will need to convince a few companies to play ball first. We're having some success with some excellent cable companies who are promoting their cables with real science and not make-believe - we hope to find the same with some power conditioning companies.

ED27 · Mar 6, 2004

For the most part, I think power conditioners are a bunch of hype.  I compared an $80 Tripp Lite vs. my $500 Monster Cable HTS3600.  There was no difference in sound quality.  The only improvement I noticed with the Monster unit was slightly better reduction of video noise (and I mean slight).  It wasn't worth the price difference.  Unfortunately for me I was already past the return date when I performed the test.

If you have a relatively new home, chances are that the power coming in will be clean and free from noise problems.  Do you have noise problems now?

EdR · Mar 6, 2004

ED27 : If you have a relatively new home, chances are that the power coming in will be clean and free from noise problems. Do you have noise problems now?

Not so I've noticed- as I mentioned, we live in T-storm country, so I've got everything on surge suppressors. In fact, we had a bolt hit close to the house about 2 years ago and it blew our indoor/outdoor thermometer. We are also subject to brown out- I notice that Parts Express has Tripplite powerconditioners for under $200 which might make sense.

I was curious as to opinions as to the high priced stuff, like Gray's Power Company or Chang's. Big claims are made, big prices are charged, so I thought it'd be worth discussing here.

Martin_S · Mar 9, 2004

I recently went through a pretty heavy round of research into the subject. I pulled a dedicated 20 amp circuit for all the networking and home theater stuff, and I was eager to install some sort of esoteric power conditioning rig. I eventually decided against the esoteric and went with the more practical.

BTW, I’m kinda new to the site (witness my post count). I’m an audio engineer working these days in radio, and my area of expertise is more in content production (recording, mixing, editing, etc.). I’m not an expert in electronics, power distribution and grounding. But I do work with the RF engineers who are, and they’ve been a great resource on this subject.

One colleague said that all this power conditioning stuff is a solution to a problem, and you first need to make sure you actually have a problem. If your electric company is anything more than an outfit with a squirrel-powered generator, chances are your power is just fine. The power supply of a given component will deal with the typical voltage it’s seeing at your wall outlet, and whatever background EMI/RFI noise there is on the line ain’t gonna be worth throwing a lot of money at. You’d probably go from having a really really quiet system, to a really really really quiet system, if there’s any difference at all (just ask ED27). However, we should all keep an eye on the development of this broadband-over-power line technology (internet service) that’s coming ‘round the bend. Sounds like a can of worms in the making.

Anyway, with all that said, that leaves the issue of surge protection. I’ve heard more than one story of an expensive TV getting fried in a thunderstorm. But more often than not, it was through the coax cable, not the AC line. Our current day A/V systems are an interconnected jungle involving AC, phone and coax lines (not to mention network and audio interconnects that can pass along surges). Damaging surges can come from all over the place. So be darn sure to have a proper grounding scheme on the outside of your house for any antenna, dish, and/or cable TV service. Aside from obvious safety issues, this ground scheme is also an important equipment protection measure.

So for my dedicated 20 amp circuit, I didn’t go for any “power conditioning”, namely, voltage stabilization. But I did get a surge protector from Surgex. It’s a 20 amp unit that’s housed in a NEMA enclosure (looks like a little electrical sub-panel). I ran the circuit through my furnace room where I placed the Sugex, and the line then continues to the HT outlets. It protects the entire circuit, and it uses a type of protection known as “series mode”, as opposed to the typical MOV-based kind. Instead of shunting a surge to ground, it slowly dissipates a surge to neutral avoiding the dreaded “ground contamination” that I hear so much about in the audio bidness (if you want to know more, I can expand later… just trying to keep this post under a million words

). It’s a little spendy at $300, but it protects the whole circuit, it filters EMI/RFI, I don’t have to use bulky plug strips in the family room, and there are no MOVs to wear out (which they do over time). They also make versions that look more like power strips.

This is also a product aimed at the pro audio/video market, which seems to have a lot less tolerance of snake oil products. Surgex has a consumer brand called Empower aimed at the over-the-top home theater market, and the equivalent unit comes with a number of additional, yet unnecessary, features. And guess what, it costs a lot more.

EdR · Mar 9, 2004

Wow, thanks, that was very helpful.  Excellent point about being sure that you've got a problem.

In the case of surge protection- we were subject to the Great Eastern Blackout of '03, when the power came back on, it fried my coffee grinder, one of the few things not on a surge protector (and, yes, I'd unplugged everything I could think of, but I've also had power failure that only lasted a minute or two).  And, as I mentioned, we do have frequent thunderstorms in the spring and fall.  I'll look into the product you mentioned.

In so far as the other products go- I suppose, if one wished to see, you'd have to be sure that you purchased things with a good return policy, and be sure to send it back if you couldn't hear a difference.  Hmmmm- might be a way to evaluate some of this stuff too.

ThA tRiXtA · Mar 9, 2004

hi - just a few questions - I am looking at getting this conditioner ---> CLICK HERE

Any thoughts on this one?

also what is "ground contamination" and what is an MOV and why / how do they wear out?

Also, I am looknig at building a new house and incorpoerating a whole room just for home theatre into it... any suggestions on any topics for a dedicated room?

best regards,

Rob

EdR · Mar 10, 2004

Hi,

Parts Express sells the Tripp Lite ISOBAR 6DBS SURGE SUPPRESSOR for $77.50 which I believe would be every bit as good as that Monster power bar for about 1/3 the price. Trying to cut through the verbage, I think that all the Monster Power Bar is, is a good surge suppressor with RF filtering and coax and phone protection. I've had very good like with Tripp Lite products, and understand that they have an excellent reputation. Here's the description of it the Tripp Lite unit:
-------------
The premium protection option for all of your home electronics you currently own or buy in the future: satellite, home theatre, computer, Web TV, cable modem, PC TV, TV/VCR, stereo, DVD and more! Isobar's exclusive filter banks prevent noise contamination between connected equipment, eliminating static, video "snow," computer lock-ups and data errors. Two sets of coaxial connectors protect both cable/antenna lines and satellite receiver dish feeds simultaneously. Six outlets protect all of your home entertainment equipment. One-line protection stops surges on a "pay-per-view," phone or modem/fax line. 3 diagnostic indicators that alert you to line condition and if protection is present. Absorbs surge energy up to 2,850 joules. Features the $50,000 Ultimate Lifetime Insurance for surge related damage to unit and connected equipment. UL listed.

EdR · Mar 10, 2004

ThA tRiXtA : Also, I am looknig at building a new house and incorpoerating a whole room just for home theatre into it... any suggestions on any topics for a dedicated room?

This deserves an entire thread just for itself. I'm not sure that here in the electronics section is quite the right place, but none of the other forums quite jump out at me either. <STAFF??>

There are many factors, starting with your intended use- dedicated or dual use (however defined, often wives have ideas that aren't quite in sync with the demands of HT/music- mine wanted to know why my listening chair couldn't be pushed to a side wall (that is at right angles to the speakers

)

What kind of budget are you looking at, both for special purpose modification and your equipment. How about resale value- if a room gets too dedicated, then it limits the people who might be interested in it, and if you sell the house in 3-5 years, you won't come close to recouping your investment.

And so forth.... One suggestion, get the 'Master Handbook of Acoustics' by Everest. It's written so that you don't have to be an engineer to understand it, and it'll give you the background to make sensible acoustical decisions. Parts Express sells it, if you're ordering from them, as does Amazon.

Anyhow, we really should move this to it's own thread in a more appropriate forum, as it's a great topic.

Guest · Mar 10, 2004

Hi EdR - thank you for your great feedback!

So you think the monster filter is just as good as the isobar tripplite thingy, but just really really expensive?

I am truly wondering if anyone has some negative comments about it affecting sound quality or anything else. I read on some reviews about other monster units like this one that it cuts high frequencies or accentuates lower ones. Do these units negatively affect anything is my major concern. I have not been able to find a review for this specific unit.

As for the home theatre room, it will be strictly dedicated to home theatre / music, but about 90 % home theatre. At any rate it won't be dual use, just to house the system.

There will be no interference from the wife either, she loves this stuff just as much as I (VERY LUCKY!) So I can mold the room as I please.

I will not be reselling this house, this is why I want to do this right the first time... So I don't care about resale value.

As for the budget, is not unlimited, but as I said above, I want to do this right, so please everybody don't leave any stone unturned and we will see what we can do...

I am looking for any tips, hints or anything no matter how small or big.

Forexample I am wondering, for the seating position, what is the ideal couch position? Halfway in between the front wall and rear wall? 1/3rd of the room length from the rear wall?

Also I am still desiring to know what this gentlemen was referring to: "what is "ground contamination" and what is an MOV and why / how do they wear out?"

Best regards,

Rob

Martin_S · Mar 10, 2004

ThÄ tRiXtÄ : Also I am still desiring to know what this gentlemen was referring to: "what is "ground contamination" and what is an MOV and why / how do they wear out?"

Nearly all surge suppressors utilize a semiconductor known as a Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV) that diverts power from the “hot” wire to ground when the voltage passes a certain threshold. I wouldn’t be surprised if the $2 MOV in your $10 plug strip is the same one in the $1500 Monster snake oil unit. MOVs *do* wear out over time--their effectiveness is reduced as they take more and more hits. If you have a power strip that doesn’t seem to work even though its breaker isn’t popped and the switch is on, the MOV is shot. Anyway, bottom line is: hot is diverted to ground during a surge.

Now the following is based on my (hopefully) logical conclusions based on various readings. Hell, at times, smoke was coming out of my ears. Buyer beware. Hopefully the EE folks in the forum will confirm. Or shoot down.

Consider the crazy interconnectedness of our audio/video/data systems (don’t forget about the phone and coax lines!). Some of this equipment uses earth ground (third AC prong) as a reference. Even though a given component doesn’t have a third prong on its AC cord, it may be connected via some kind of cable to a component that does. In other words, the chassis ground of any component probably meets up with earth ground, sooner or later.

Now cut to the MOV-based surge suppressor that’s sending thousands of volts-worth of surge to ground. Some of your gear is looking to ground for reference, and it’s interconnected with other gear. Zappo. This is the dreaded "ground contamination" that I've heard equipment designers mention. They speak of this as a bad thing, and I’m inclined to believe them.

I must confess that in all my years of carting equipment around, I’ve never had anything fry due to an MOV-based suppressor “contaminating the ground”. Then again, I think I’ve just been lucky enough to avoid any serious surges period. For a while there I was in charge of a $100k PA system without any power conditioning. That system did have $5k worth of power distribution (main cut-off, breaker panel, extension lines & outlets, etc.) which ultimately ensured a clean grounding scheme--as in hum/buzz, not "contamination". It was designed/built by Audio Analysts, an outfit that does gigantic touring systems, i.e., they know what they're doing. But there was no surge suppression (except for a couple of plug strips, probably with MOVs, for a few small components).

I should mention, though, that much of my reading on this topic came from the Surgex web site in their Knowledge Base section. My point is that it would be fair to believe that this is all Surgex propaganda. However, the amount of documentation, scientific explanation and testing that they provide seems to be right in line with what this forum expects from manufacturers. Also, some of the testimonials they have come from people that I've heard of and are known to be legitimate authorities on such things.

My Surgex unit should arrive on Friday. I'm looking forward to my "layers and layers of deep transparancy, ...reduction of grain, and significant improvement of inner detail and coherence."

ThA tRiXtA · Mar 10, 2004

thanks for your comments sir

Audioholics · Mar 10, 2004

Martin_S : I’m an audio engineer working these days in radio, and my area of expertise is more in content production (recording, mixing, editing, etc.). I’m not an expert in electronics, power distribution and grounding. But I do work with the RF engineers who are, and they’ve been a great resource on this subject.

Man, you fit this site like a glove...

Nice post, good info.

zipper · Mar 10, 2004

Good thread.I'm taking notes.

 thA,
 If I may make some suggestions, I would run at least 2 home runs of power back to your breaker box,dedicated solely for A/V equipment,with their own breakers. Also a run of some 3 or 4 pair CAT-5 phone wire,some quality coax(maybe 2 runs,cable & dish), &, if you can find some, a pair of fiber optic cables(doesn't need ends on them yet). Terminate one end of these where your system goes & the other out to where your utilities will enter the house.
 I know some of this may sound like overkill,but if you plan on being there for a while it ALL may be of use in the future.

ThA tRiXtA · Mar 10, 2004

Hi Zipper

Thank you very much for your suggestions, they are greatly appreciated. I am in the midst of working on the design plans for my house and all your suggestions are definately useful.

However, I am new to this house plan thing and sort of new to the home theatre subject, so please don't be mad when I ask you to explain your suggestions a bit.

what exactly do you mean by this "2 home runs of power back to your breaker box"?

"Also a run of some 3 or 4 pair CAT-5 phone wire" in this statement , what does the three or four pair mean? if this means have 3 to 4 phone lines / jacks in one room, I am unclear on the purpose of this.

As pertaining to your suggestion to prerun some quality coax, I could not agree with you more on this... I think cables running on the outside of walls look ugly as sin.

What brand of coax cable is considered good quality and where can I buy it?

Thanks very much for your help!

Rob

zipper · Mar 10, 2004

Rob

 Most runs of power in houses leave from the breaker box fed by,let's say a 20 amp breaker.They then will feed 2 or more outlets/light fixtures by "looping" the run. In other words,it will run into an outlet then back out of it & continue on to another outlet, so that you end up possibly having 2,3,4 or even more outlets being fed by one 20 amp breaker.By making a "home run",you terminate the wire only at one outlet,thus eliminating the possibility of interference from other electrical sources plugged into the run of wire that your A/V equipment is plugged into.Also helps to keep from ever overloading the circuits that your A/V is using.
 The phone wire I mentioned is used for high-speed data transfer & is quite common these days. Standard phone wire is CAT-3(category 3) & is good for all voice & some data.CAT-5 is good for running both.There are usually 3,4, or more pairs of wire within a "phone wire".So with one run of "phone wire" you could have 3,4,or more different circuits or dial tones.I can see DSL service progressing to full T1's in the future, so having this wire in place will give you options,which is also why I suggested fiber.
 As far as coax,I don't work much with it,but I believe RG-6 is is good for most applications. That is a size, or grade, of cable.Not sure that brand name matters a whole lot although I'm sure there are some better than others.
 Have fun & good luck!

EdR · Mar 11, 2004

A couple of other thoughts. We built our house about four years ago, like you we don't intend to move for a while.

A few things from that experience to pass along. Get more electrical service than you think you'll need. We went with the 'standard', I believe 130 amp service, now our box is full and it'd cost a whole lot more to get more than it would have at build time.

Pay attention to outlets. I had never lived in house that had either enough outlets nor in which I didn't have to move a couch to get one. I had outlets placed so that in every room so that there is an outlet 12-18" from every corner- I also added about 6 extras to the kitchen and use them all. It ended up being 36 more than code required, and I love it!! Wherever you are, there's an outlet if you need one. Left to their own devices contractors tend to put them in the middle of walls.

It's just the two of us (plus cats) and I built a loft and have the home theater up there. Now with full 7.1 sound. It works great and the sound is fantastic. I just upgraded to a yamaha RX-V2400 receiver and for HT can't imagine needing better in this relatively small room. I think I already reccommended the Everest book "Master Handbook of Acoustics"- given the level of investment, worth both the time and money investment (under $30)

Dan Banquer · Mar 11, 2004

"and there are no MOVs to wear out (which they do over time). "
A very true statement. But I do have a few questions on this subject. Many of us in residential settings are not subject to repeated surges. A few times a year may well be more typical. Should those of us who use the MOV'S in this environment think about switching to the Surgex unit? Is this really necessary for the environment described above?
I would certainly understand if you live in Lightning Alley down in Florida that this would be a major concern.
d.b.

EdR · Mar 11, 2004

Dan Banquer : Many of us in residential settings are not subject to repeated surges. A few times a year may well be more typical.

In a previous job, we had occation to monitor the voltage in our office outlet to see what was going on. What we found was spikes in the 300 volt range 5-10 times a day, with one that hit 500 volts. We never quite figured out why, but there they were, and it made a convincing case for surge suppression.

My understanding is (and jump in here any time you EE types

) that the collapse of the induction field when an electric motor switches off can put a transient spike back into the house wiring, so when a furnace/AC turns on and off, there could be several hundred volt transients, as well as things like washing machines and so forth. Plus your neighbors could be hobby arc welders

Thus, while huge thousand volt surges might never happen, it is possible in a residential area for your equipment to be seeing some 200+ volt spikes every day, which over time would wear out the MOV's. I would greatly appreciate someone more knowledgeable than me to please correct me on this if I'm mistaken.

ThA tRiXtA · Mar 11, 2004

Hi Zipper - thanks for your feedback to my questions...

So I should have one 20 amp breaker controlling one ac socket in the home theatre room? Sounds good, I will design that in. Thanks for the great suggestion!

I will prewire with the RG-6 too, thank you.

I didn't know that even phone line cable was subject to lack of quality... Do you have anything else to say on this topic?

Power Conditioners- Mega Snake Oil??

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