YPAO question

[Tomorrow]

I'm new to the Yamaha YPAO system. After running it a number of times, I still scratch my head over its setup of my speakers. It sets the distance correctly, the size of the speakers incorrectly (which I change), and the phase of the speakers incorrectly.

This question has to do with the phasing issue. Why does it give me the Out-of-Phase message (when I know they are wired correctly) and should I let the receiver be my master or my slave on this setting? Is there another means of testing the speaker phase?

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[xdetroitx]

I have the same system. I use it for just my speaker distance and speaker level. I also get the out of phase warning and it also sets my speakers to large. Use it for what it does work on and have fun doing some of it yourself. Thats half the fun of a new receiver.

 

[Nomo]

YPAO consistantly tells me that my left front speaker is out of phase, not the case.
When I run YPAO I skip the size and wiring tests and only let it do EQ, distance and level.

 

[Tomorrow]

YPAO consistantly tells me that my left front speaker is out of phase, not the case.
When I run YPAO I skip the size and wiring tests and only let it do EQ, distance and level.

The inaccuracies make one wonder about its EQ setup, too.

 

[jcPanny]

Yapo

Your receiver can't change the speaker phase (except for the sub) so just ignore the error message once you have checked the wiring. The wide range of speaker types and room interactions can trigger the phase message on some auto setup systems.

 

[agarwalro]

For those who get the phase error and have checked the speaker wiring (from speaker to receiver), what if your speakers interal wiring is somehow crossed. That is the only way you will still get the message. I would give credence to the "Out-of-Phase" warning if you get it consistantly across a multiple YAPO runs.

 

[Tomorrow]

For those who get the phase error and have checked the speaker wiring (from speaker to receiver), what if your speakers interal wiring is somehow crossed. That is the only way you will still get the message. I would give credence to the "Out-of-Phase" warning if you get it consistantly across a multiple YAPO runs.

This was kind of my thinking....but how can one know? Thus my original question...is there some means of phase testing (short of some uber-expensive, stand-alone phase or spectrum analyzer)?

 

[gmichael]

My RX-V2500 manual warns that the out of phase message may come up when the speakers are wired correctly. Apparently some speakers have the tweeters wired out of phase for a reason. Some manufacturers believe that it gives them a smoother sound. Don't know if it works. But Yamaha did warn me. So when my mains show up as out of phase, I know they are wired correctly.

 

[mnnc]

My RX-V2500 manual warns that the out of phase message may come up when the speakers are wired correctly. Apparently some speakers have the tweeters wired out of phase for a reason. Some manufacturers believe that it gives them a smoother sound. Don't know if it works. But Yamaha did warn me. So when my mains show up as out of phase, I know they are wired correctly.

As gmike says...depending on speakers that one has will make a difference in the setup concerning phase. My previous rxv2500 gave same error when connected to my mains which are powered towers/built in subs. I know they were wired correctly so I ignored the prompt. Skipping wiring during ypao setup is a good option as mentioned by another member just as long as you know that pos is to pos and neg is to neg at both connection ends. Crank it up and enjoy!

 

[Nuglets]

You can clearly tell that your speakers are out of phase just by listening to them. In direct stereo, you should be able to localize voices and noises in the recording...if it is out of phase, the imaging will be horrible. I use YPAO and it analyzes my setup correctly as far as phase, size, and distance is concerned, but I would have to agree with what someone has already said about the variation of speakers types and room acoustics that may be the cause of the problem. There are also test cd's that can help you setup the phase if you still think it is wrong.

 

[mulester7]

You can clearly tell that your speakers are out of phase just by listening to them. In direct stereo, you should be able to localize voices and noises in the recording...if it is out of phase, the imaging will be horrible. I use YPAO and it analyzes my setup correctly as far as phase, size, and distance is concerned, but I would have to agree with what someone has already said about the variation of speakers types and room acoustics that may be the cause of the problem. There are also test cd's that can help you setup the phase if you still think it is wrong.

.....Nuglets, you may think I'm nuts, get in line, but I'm convinced there are some muddy old Japanese speakers out there that would sound better being cross-wired, which is only one-deep series wiring....I heard more detail top-to-bottom out of my mains, when I intentionally cross-wired them for two months last year....cross-wired the surrounds too, to keep the chamber presence constant....with sub it sounded pretty decent....the highs ended up getting to me, I guess, because firstly, I WANTED to uncross them....when I uncrossed them back to normal, it was what I wanted the most by comparison, so that door was closed....maybe....the high rears may get crossed when I'm done....anyhow, there was actually more detailing going on when cross-wired for me....and, I cut the top a bit at the start of the two months....I've heard in the past you'll lose the bass by out-of-phase....it's still there, but actually gets cleaner and loses any whompiness....let those who have muddy on the bottom with the bottom overshadowing the top take notice.......

 

[Tomorrow]

You can clearly tell that your speakers are out of phase just by listening to them. In direct stereo, you should be able to localize voices and noises in the recording...if it is out of phase, the imaging will be horrible. I use YPAO and it analyzes my setup correctly as far as phase, size, and distance is concerned, but I would have to agree with what someone has already said about the variation of speakers types and room acoustics that may be the cause of the problem. There are also test cd's that can help you setup the phase if you still think it is wrong.

Based upon my really unscientific test (i.e. listening), imaging from my speakers seems much better when YPAO tells me the mains are out of phase. But then, as has been mentioned, some speakers are intentionally wired thusly, to gain sound dispersion (a cousin of imaging), e.g. dipoles. So I'm still a bit 'fused. (These are monopole speakers, btw.)

 

[mulester7]

Based upon my really unscientific test (i.e. listening), imaging from my speakers seems much better when YPAO tells me the mains are out of phase. But then, as has been mentioned, some speakers are intentionally wired thusly, to gain sound dispersion (a cousin of imaging), e.g. dipoles. So I'm still a bit 'fused. (These are monopole speakers, btw.)

.....outstanding, RJ....since we all hear different, and speakers sound different, we owe it to ourselves to check out all possibilities....I had arguably $4000 mains and arguably $2000 surrounds cross-wired for about two months....at all listening levels....you won't hurt your speakers cross-wiring them....I suggest all try this, and you'll have your subs to keep you warm....if your speakers sound offensively bright right at first, clip the highs....learn to appreciate cross-wiring for what it is, one-deep series wiring....it can make you appreciate them not being cross-wired ultimately....I said can....cross-wiring "rears" CAN bring the front soundstage to life, with a gain for the better in the overall presence....depends on the equipment and ears involved....listening....how totally and despicably unscientific, haha.......

 

[Nuglets]

If you are 100% that your wires are hooked up with the right polarity and your reciever is telling you that they are out of phase, I would assume the issue is with room acoustics and that may be the same reason your speakers sound better when it says they are out of phase. Room acoustics will play a huge role in how the system sounds...if your YPAO is detecting them out of phase when you are sure they are wired in phase that probably means there are cancellations at certain frequencies that the YPAO test tones are due to the shape of the room and/or speaker placement. I don't disagree that the speakers sound better to you when crosswired but I believe with proper placement and calibration(assuming the speaker's aren't crosswired inside) they will sound more correct when they are in phase with each other, otherwise you are creating cancellations at all frequencies, which I don't think is desirable in any way. Like I said before, there are cd's with test's that will help you with the phase of your speakers...the one I have used in the past is on a lense cleaning cd and it was very easy to tell when the guy's voice was in phase and out of phase. Also, be sure that both speakers are the same distance from the listening position. Because of the properties of sound waves(actually all types of waves), when the sound from the two speakers reaches the listening position at different times there will also be cancellations.

 

[xboxweasel]

No sense starting a new thread

I too have YPAO issues. I know about the out of phase warning. It happens.

I finally got around to hooking up all 4 fo my new surrounds. I re-ran the auto calibrate. The thing that got me this time is the distance for my left surround. 23 feet. Way off. Before when I ran this test I was still using 4 surrounds, but the backs were a different make. No problem with distance then. Why now? The receiver only tests one speaker at a time. How can changing the rears affect the distance response for a surround speaker?

 

[Nuglets]

I too have YPAO issues. I know about the out of phase warning. It happens.

I finally got around to hooking up all 4 fo my new surrounds. I re-ran the auto calibrate. The thing that got me this time is the distance for my left surround. 23 feet. Way off. Before when I ran this test I was still using 4 surrounds, but the backs were a different make. No problem with distance then. Why now? The receiver only tests one speaker at a time. How can changing the rears affect the distance response for a surround speaker?

How many times have you run it? Maybe there was some error caused by external noise or bad mic placement.

 

[xboxweasel]

3 times. Nothing really changes, except I replaced the back surrounds with the new speakers I bought. Mike always sits in the same place. Furniture does not move. Etc.

 

[xboxweasel]

Ran the test today again. Repositioned the sofa and mic. Distance measurements are good now. Strange how +/-1" can affect that. Thanks for the feedback guys. Have fun.

 

[billnchristy]

Mine has never told me my speakers were out of phase.

To test your phase:

Remove the speaker wire from your reciever one at a time, take a 9v battery and put the + to the + and the - to -, the cones on your speakers will pop and extend either in or out (you have to watch) test both being sure all move in the same direction.

Note, we used to test woofers this way.

I do not know if this will hurt your tweeters, I assume the voltage and amperage is low enough to not worry, but am not sure.

 

[xboxweasel]

I talked to Yamaha....they said getting an out of phase response is normal with certain speakers (ie: large) in small rooms. If you ensured the wiring is correct then he said to ignore the test results . I also verified the phasing using the THX audio test portion found on many THX certified DVDs. It plays back in / out of phase audio. Out of phase playback hurts my ears. It sound like the sound is coming from everywhere. When an in phase track is played back I can pin point the source of the sound between the two speakers being tested.

I know about the battery test. But I have seen it done with a 1.5V D cell. I think 9 volts might be too much. I thought that speakers are driven by 2-3VAC (depending on volume levels). And it is easier to test woofers because of the bigger cone movement. From what I have read, out of phase woofers are more detrimental to the sound reproduction and out of phase tweeters are not as noticeable.

Thanks to all for responding.