Yamaha RXV 2500 Dilemma

[little wing]

Hello all!!
I bought the 2500 about 2 months ago based on reviews and the company's reputation. I waited so long to upgrade to a Dolby digital receiver because although I do love movie watching, my first love is music. And I tried several DD receivers a few years back ( Onkyo, HK, Denon- $500 to $700 range) and they didn't sound good in 2 channel. Now I've been listening to the 2500 and I am coming to the conclusion that the mid range sounds somewhat thin and distant to me. I unplugged it, hooked back up my HK preamp and HK PA5800 amp (which by the way has 80 wpc and sounds just as powerful as the Yamaha) and low and behold, I got my midrange back. I really want to like the 2500, and for surround it is awesome. I know I'm just rambling now, but my question is, does anybody feel the same way about surround receivers? I thought if I spent close to a grand I could have the best of both worlds, but I'm not so sure:

 

[insbordnat]

Eq

I assume you've tweaked your mids on the 2500, right?

 

[Dezoris]

I feel the same way, I spent hours calibrating the system, bass, EQ, all that crap. The problem with bringing up the EQ on the fronts is that generally it throws off the balance of the other speakers.

Part of having a 7.1 setup is equalizing the entire system to be seemless.

I found for 2 channel audio I always go with the direct mode or multi-channel in to bypass the Yamahas EQ.

This is the tradeoff.

If anyone else has any ideas please post up

 

[jcPanny]

Yamaha 2500 Sound

The Yamaha 2500 pre-amp and amp stages are very transparent and do not color the sound. The frequency response of your speakers and your room acoustics both effect the sound that reaches your ears. The auto and manual EQ capabilities are designed to acount for some of these descrepencies. Consider trying these features on your new receiver.

Another possibility is that your "reference sound" is the HK which might have a 3 to 6 dB peak in the mid range frequencies. In comparison, the nutral Yamaha sounds thin. This theory could easily be tested using a radio shack SPL meter and test tones.

 

[little wing]

Thanks to all of you. I am glad I am not the only one who thinks this. I will try to tweak the EQ a bit............ Maybe my newbie ears just don't know transparent, uncolored sound when they I hear it. I am not knocking the 2500, overall I think it sounds really really good. I know the best solution is to have another system dedicated to stereo. I just don't have the cash right now.

 

[PENG]

To compare to your separates you should listen to 2 channel in pure direct. Without the sub, the HK separates will probably beat the RX-V2500 in deep bass but in mid range they shouldn't sound much different as long as the Yamaha is in analog pure direct. Did you try hooking up the HK's power amp to the Yamaha's pre-outs?

 

[luiz gutierrez]

Yamaha's "thin midrange"

Your post brings up some interesting thoughts.

My initial impression of the Yamaha HTR-5860, as I mentioned, was that it had very good (accurate) sounding amps when used in the "pure direct" mode. As mentioned, it compared in transparency with a Jolida (very transparent and neutral with the right tube combination, not "euphonic" as tubes are often reputed to be) and Magnepan combination. However, in extended listening sessions, with some cd's, the Yamaha's sound seemed to have a distinct thinness to it. This should not have been the case, especially when paired with Spica TC-60's.

However, at the end of a long day, again in some recordings, and with a couple of changes in speaker wire, it seemed to get its body back.

So, what are my conclusions? (Temporary conclusions; today is another day.)

The Yamaha amps are accurate in "pure direct" with analog input. It will accurately reproduce CD's recorded with a "thin" frequency balance. Listen carefully to how it reproduces the different sonic textures of each cut even within the same CD.

How to expalin the "thinness" phenomenon?

I have noticed over the years at each step when I went to a more accurate component in my systems, the initial impression was always that the sound seemed "thinner". My theory is that a fuller sound often is a muddier sound (not always).

If you want to tweak the sound of your Yamaha in the pure direct mode, you can do the following:
1. As mentioned by someone else above, use the pre-outs to connect to your HK amp, then to your front speakers.
2. Try different speaker wires; Cardas will generally give you a richer harmonic texture.
3. If you can, attach your source to the CD input for stereo, while keeping your other DVD inputs, and try different interconnects. Use copper rather than silver. My Pioneer DVD has a stereo only output separate from the other home theater outputs. Alternatively, use a warm-sounding CD player, with the right interconnect, as a dedicated source for your music, separate from your DVD for movies.

Good luck, and let us know how it all comes out.
A word of caution: the road to hell is paved with the first step into Tweekdom!
Luiz

 

[jcPanny]

Interconnects

Concerning the previous post, speaker wire cannot ( or should not ) color or improve the sound. As long as you are using 12 AWG or 14 AWG coper than you are fine for any reasonably long runs. If you want more info on this topic see the audioholics speaker wire faceoffs.

Concerning the quality of the DVD or CD player, the above point is valid. For example, if you have a high end CD player with Burr-Brown D/A converters, than these might be higher quality than the D/As in your recever, so the CD player might sound better with the Analog connection then with a digital optical or coax connection to the receiver.

With a tranparent receiver and revealing speakers, you will be able to hear the difference between a poor quality and high quality recording. I don't like the idea of electronics that color or change the sound.

 

[luiz gutierrez]

Cables and coloring sound

Sorry for contradicting the conventional wisdom here at Engineer Central (with all due respect, of course), but cables and interconnects can and do change the sound of systems. Whether you like the change or not is a different question. If you doubt that theoretically rather than empirically, try getting a few different samples from The Cable Company (google it...fatwyre.com. I think), which has a lending library, and will lend you wire to audition in your own home for about 10% of the retail cost of the particular cable.

Let me know what you hear. Music has to do with the nervous system first, the brain second. More "subjective" voodoo: it helps to hear differences by keeping your eyes open while listening critically. No kidding. Really.
Luiz

 

[little wing]

Good stuff! Right now I am using Infinity Crescendo 3006 speakers and the Jolida JD100 cd player. I did hook up the HK PA5800 to the pre outs of the Yamaha and it sounds good. I am tweaking the EQ............ "Band" "Gain" "Q Factor" what does it all mean??? Again I am new at this. The interconnects are from Apeture.

 

[MDS]

Band = the particular frequency the EQ is working on. Moving a slider that is marked '100 Hz' affects frequencies around 100 Hz (see Q).

Gain = increase the amplitude. The opposite of attenuate, which means to reduce. The gain control likely can cut (attenuate) or boost (add gain) the amplitude of the frequency band you are working on.

Q = a measure of the 'width' of the particular frequency band. Higher Q equals a larger width. So if you move the slider marked 100 Hz, it will actually affect frequencies slightly below and slightly above 100 Hz. If the Q is high it will affect more frequencies above and below the target band. A notch filter would affect very few frequencies above and below the target band and thus would have a very low Q - likely Q=1. If the EQ has an adjustment for Q you are defining the width of the frequencies affected when you move any particular slider band.

 

[little wing]

Thank you MDS. Can I ask you, which frequencies fall into the midrange?
Also, I have tried the pure direct mode. It is interesting to here the difference, with some recordings that are a little muddy, (if I can use that analogy) the pure direct mode is really good. With other recordings, I prefer the 2 channel stereo, or the "straight" mode. I am listening to some Hendrix right now and sipping a Bass Ale.

 

[MDS]

There are no hard and fast rules as to which frequencies constitute the midrange. Most will say that the midrange starts just above the level at which bass frequencies become localizable (in other words the point where you can tell from which direction they are coming from - low bass is generally not localizable) to somewhere in the range of the human voice (2-3 kHz).

One thing you could do to get an idea of what speaker manufacturers consider to be midrange would be to look up the specs for a 3-way speaker and look at the xover frequencies. If for example, a particular 3-way speaker has xovers at 300 Hz and 2 kHz, then that particular manufacturer considers the midrange to be 300 Hz - 2 kHz.

Here is a short article I found with a quick Google. I've seen very similar charts elsewhere. http://www.dak.com/reviews/Tutorial_frequencies.cfm

 

[luiz gutierrez]

Improving lower frequencies

Thank you MDS. Can I ask you, which frequencies fall into the midrange?
Also, I have tried the pure direct mode. It is interesting to here the difference, with some recordings that are a little muddy, (if I can use that analogy) the pure direct mode is really good. With other recordings, I prefer the 2 channel stereo, or the "straight" mode. I am listening to some Hendrix right now and sipping a Bass Ale.

Sipping a Bass Ale is the easiest way to improve the lower frequencies of your system. Guzzling a few will get you down in the subwoofer region in no time!
Thanks, MDS, for the succinct information on Q. Always wondered what that referred to.
Luiz

 

[little wing]

RX V2500 questions

MDS that was a great article, very informative. Just want to let everyone know, I ran the Auto set up and got a burn in cd, which I have been playing all weekend. I can say the sound seems to be better. It is amazing to hear different dynamic ranges from different songs on the same cd. The 2500 really exposes poor recordings. One cd that is excellently recorded is Steely Dan's Two against Nature"