Yamaha RXV-2400 -versus- Denon AVR-3803?

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Anybody have any insight in comparisons, pros and cons between these two models or is it a toss up (besides 10 xtra watts/channel in favor of the 2400). I don't consider the power diff. to be of any significance so I'm looking for some more concrete info to tip the scales. Thanks.</font>

 

[pam]

<font color='#728FCE'>Another post states that AVR-3805 is coming in two months.

Two possibility:
- you can compare 3803 vs 2400;
- if you have difficulty choosing, price of 3803 will probably go south.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Good points. I just heard about the 3805 after I sent this. Unfortunately I don't have time on my side to wait a couple months or so. I bet the 3805 has some responses to the 2400 so will probably be a good one but because of timing it's the 3803 I have to compare to.

I had an RXV-2092 for about 6 years and something died on the power supply last year. Just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing brand as well as features because I would expect to get more life out of a product at the level the 2092 was in '97. In the end with all of the new digital sound formats added since '97 (just missed even DTS) the failure probably did me a favor...would probably never been able to get the wife to let me upgrade for replacing a functioning unit! &nbsp;:0)

Now my 1st 2400 replacement I bought for the 2092 appears to have a problem and the dealer is willing to swap it out for me new or for another brand/model if I want.

If the 3083 was indeed comparable to the 2400 in quality, sound options, etc. I would give it the edge for what I consider a bad experience with the first Yamaha I had and possibly this 2nd one. I have no complaints with the Yamaha sound performance though!

Also possibly of note is my usage is probably 80% Movies/Home Theatre and the bbalance music. Thanks.</font>

 

[petermwilson]

<font color='#000000'>Hi Buckey,
With the 3805 coming out (particularly with all that power) it would kill any resale value the 3803 might have right off the bat. &nbsp;
I mean you could get a 3805 and add a small amp for the front end and for much less cost have a setup cheaper than something like the 5803.

I'm just suggesting you look at all your options.

Peter m.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I had the pleasure last week of buying a Yamaha RXV2400. I love it. In fact I was considering many of the same choices that you have. I compared it head to head with Denon3803 in the store with a wide array of speakers, including the ones I wanted to mate it with at home (Klipsch reference mainly for Home theater applications). Absolutely no difference in sound. &nbsp;It's a complete toss up between the two from a sound standpoint. &nbsp;The dealer would only go down to $800 plus tax for the Denon, and I knew I could buy the Yamaha on line for $700 delivered, no tax, but I ended up getting it there for $750 with tax, because i didn't feel like waiting.

When I got it home, I set the sucker up in 10 minutes and I even let it adjust the speaker settings, room size etc. It was 100% on the money. &nbsp;I even screwed around with a second amp and made it a 9.1 system with front presence speakers. &nbsp;I don't think the Denon has that capacity.

I keep on buying HT systems to keep up with the new developments. I upgraded and bought a 6.1 system to replace my 5.1, and now i have a 7.1 which I can make into a 9.1. &nbsp;Anymore speakers in my theater and it would be a joke. I am secure in knowing that I won't need to buy anything else for quite awhile. I have a 5.1 in my bedroom. A 6.1 in the living room. Another 5.1 in the rec room, and now the RXV2400 has been graduated up to the Home theater.</font>

 

[goodman]

<font color='#CCCCCC'>To put it mildly, you are SURROUNDED!</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>The 2400 and 1400 can not do 9.1. &nbsp;The manual even points out this issue. &nbsp;The pre/amp output for the Surr Back can not put out an independent &nbsp;and discrete presence channel with the Surr Back speakers engaged. &nbsp;Either unit always gives priority to the Surr Back channels if and when they are selected for 7.1 channel playback. &nbsp;If you enjoy having your Surr Back channel come from behind and in front of you, then enjoy your psuedo 9.1. &nbsp;

Ross.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Again, check out dellasalla's review on this site. Go to page 4 and click on comparison matrix at bottom of page. It seems like he's agreeing that this is really front effects and not more back surround.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Folks;

Unfortunately I won't be able to reintegrate the RX-V2400 into one of my reference systems for at least a few weeks. &nbsp;Too slammed right now!

Yamaha did state that the unit will work in 9.1 with an external amp. &nbsp;I didn't believe it did before they told me, thus I never tried it.

Yamaha RX-V2400 FAQ

I am still waiting on their feedback from the review and follow-up to open action items that I sent them.

If I may suggest other owners do the following to confirm:

1) Connect external amp to pre outs labeled :Surr Back/Presence&quot;
2) Hook up all mail 7.1 speakers to receiver, and front effects to external amps
Note: make sure power amp assignment in RX-V2400 is set to &quot;Surr Back&quot;.
3) Play a DD/DTS 5.1 EX/ES soundtrack
4) Engage a Yamaha DSP Mode (IE. Adventure, Spectacle, etc)

Using the level trims on the remote, vary the &quot;Front Effects&quot; levels and &quot;Surround Back&quot; levels to see if they independently control the appropriate speakers.

As further confirmation, engage an ordinary DD/DTS mode (NO DSP). &nbsp;This should kill &quot;Front Effect&quot; channels.


Note: &nbsp;Front Effects = Presence

Yamaha used to call them &quot;Front Effects&quot; now they call them &quot;Presence&quot;. &nbsp;I get confused and interchange the terminology sometimes

&nbsp;

I look forward to everyones report!</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>The manual says, page 20:
&quot;Each pre out jack outputs the same channel signal as the corresponding speaker terminals. However, when both surround back and presence speakers are connected to this unit, the channel of the signals output from SURROUND BACK/PRESENCE PRE OUT jacks may not correspond to the location of the speakers connected through SURROUND BACK/PRESENCE PRE OUT jacks.&quot;

The following is an email exchange &quot;dubauskas&quot; had with a yamaha rep from Canada:

&quot;Hi again David
This is a 7.1 amp it is not designed the same way as our RXV3300 or RXZ1 or Z9 where as the front effect and rear centre channels can be on at the same time (9.1). THX as you know has two mono centre rear speakers playing the same information. The Surround side speakers are actually the rear channels which are designed to work with the THX specification. Our Cinema DSP works on the basis the front effect and rear effect speakers provide the ambient sound for our DSP modes such as ROCK CONCERT and can work with DTS or Dolby Digital at the same time. They are two different formats. THX doesn't allow DSP processing and that is why you can't do what you want to do. Wish I had better news for you. You are not doing anything wrong.
Kind Regards
Daniel Dame&quot;

Gene,
I and everyone else I've encounterd that has attempted this can not get true 9.1 from this unit. &nbsp;A Psuedo-9.1 is attainable, but the unit always gives priority to the surr-back channels if the signal is present. &nbsp;Even if sound is coming from the presence channels, it is not a constant and simultaneous signal in conjuction with the surr-back engaged. &nbsp;You can do 7.1 with either the presence or surr-back engaged, but not both at the same time. &nbsp;I will conduct further investigation into this matter and will post if I come up with something new. &nbsp;I believe this 9.1 would have been exploited to its fullest if this unit could indeed do it. &nbsp;

What are your thoughts?</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Hi Ross;

Thanks for your correspondence. &nbsp;To simply things, lets leave out THX modes for the moment. &nbsp;Yes I agree, you cannot enter a THX mode when engaged in a Yamaha DSP.

My past experience with Yamaha receivers and DSP is that they do not apply DSP signals to the back surround channel (IE RX-Z1). &nbsp;The back surround channel was only engaged in EX/ES mode.

I am speaking from memory right now since my review sample of the RX-V2400 is currently boxed up. &nbsp;I believe there is an internal switch that the user can toggle between &quot;Presence/Surround Back&quot;. &nbsp;To me that would imply that what ever mode you select, will yield the identical output to the preamp outs labeled &quot;Presence/Surround Back&quot;. &nbsp;That being the case, a true 7.1 + 2 Presence Channels when engaged in Yamaha DSP mode cannot be realized on this unit.

If possible, I propose attempting my test in my previous post to determine if this is indeed the case or not. &nbsp;Thanks.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Gene,
I did attempt the forementioned guidelines you listed. &nbsp;In theory this sounds like a practical application to the 9.1 issue. &nbsp;However, I still could not get the surr-back and presence channels to simultaneously and consistently reproduce the information they should. &nbsp;I beleive the unit will always give priority to the surr-back channels if and when the information is present. &nbsp;The presence channels may emit sound, but not sound that is consistent with the program source in a standardized 7.1 + 2 configuration. &nbsp;I will continue testing this potential capability and will let you know If I find out anything new. &nbsp;If you get a chance to re-test this unit, please report your findings in regards to this issue. &nbsp;

best,
Ross.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Ok I just got an email from Yamaha Engineering.  Here is the final answer.

Bottom Line:  The Yamaha RX-V2400 does NOT support 9.1 just like others here and myself originally suspected.


Q: When engaged in a DSP mode, using an external amp connected to the preouts for Surround Back/Presence, can the user achieve a 9.1 configuration? In other words, with the receiver supply power to the surround back channels while the external amps supply power to presence channels? Or is the user simply parallel powering identical surround back/presence channels to all four speakers?



A: No, the user cannot achieve a 9.1ch configuration.  No, because RX-V2400 has only 7ch amplifiers AND 7 preout circuit to output.  TheRX-V2400 has 9 speakers setting (please see Owner's manual page 29). In this 9 speakers setting case, presence speakers are set on “front” and surround back speakers are set on “back”. The customer has a choice between two alternatives which is &quot;using presence speakers&quot; OR &quot;using surround back speakers&quot;.

For example, when engaged in Cinema DSP mode (presence speakers out mode) and a source signals have 7.1ch signal (including surround back signal), a customer has to decide which speakers (presence or surround back) is ON. In presence case, surround back signal is merged into surround channel signal.  In surround back case, presence signal is merged into front channel signal. In this case, A priority which speakers are selected is set by setting. See Owner's manual page 53.
</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I bought the Yamaha RXV2400 after being told it could eventually be a 9.1. Should I return it, or someday will there be a possible modification. I was hoping this would be the last receiver I needed to buy for 10 years.

What other Yamahas can play 9.1?</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Ricky;

The RX-Z9 does 9.1 with no external amplification needed. &nbsp;Some of the older 3000 series and RX-Z1/V1 do 8.1 (one back surround).

However, the RX-V2400 and Z9 are the only ones that offer their latest features:
1) Component Video Up Conversion
2) YPAO
3) PLIIx
4) Variable crossover

Don't forget the added presence channels are not discrete and are based on Yamaha's proprietary DSP algorithms.

7.1 is also not discrete. &nbsp;Only 6.1 DTS ES can be discrete.

Are we confused yet?

</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Thanks for the update Gene. &nbsp;My own experiementation was yeilding exactly what the yamaha engineer told you. &nbsp;The 9.1 is not a discrete 9.1, but rather a 7.1 with switching capabilities between the surr-back and presence channels. &nbsp;However, this does not get me down about the unit I purchased. &nbsp;

Rick, yamaha has always added on proprietary DSP decoding on their units that do not reflect the industry standards of the time. &nbsp;They will include the standards, and then some. &nbsp;I beleive the Z9 and a potential 3400 will be the only units with true 9.1 capability. &nbsp;If you enjoy the unit, then I see no reason to take it back, especially if no 9.1 is your only complaint. &nbsp;7.1 is already a little overkill for me, not to mention 9.1! &nbsp;If you MUST have 9.1, then wait for a possible 3400 or get the Z9. &nbsp;

Good luck!
Ross.</font>

 

[im timmy]

<font color='#A8A8A8'>9.1

there are only a handful of discs available for 6.1ex and es right now. Check out the DTS website for their es software titles.</font>