Yamaha RX-A2040 or Denon AVR-X4100W

[damnngina15]

Hi, I am just looking for some advice as to which receiver to purchase or if anyone has auditioned the two they can give me their takes on them and the implementation of the features each has to offer. I am running a Def Tech setup with BP7004's upfront, a C/L/R2300 as the center and BP1.2X surrounds. I currently have a Denon AVR-2808 but am looking to upgrade as I just upgraded my TV from a Samsung 67A750 DLP to a Samsung UN75HU8550 which is 4k and 3d, two features my current receiver will not support. Both the Denon and Yamaha seem to pretty much offer the same feature set with the exceptions of Audyssey vs YPAO and 125 WPC vs 140 WPC (Denon vs Yamaha respectively). On the power I was wondering if any of you could clear something up for me. The Denon is rated lower at 125 WPC, 8 ohms, .05% THD, 2 channels driven but has a 670 watt power supply where as the Yamaha is rated at a higher 140 WPC, 8 ohms, .06% THD, 2 channels driven and yet has a weaker 490 watt power supply? Am I wrong because I always thought there was some correlation between the two or did one of them overrate or underrate their amp section. Mainly just trying to figure out which receiver would drive my Def Tech setup better. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[PENG]

The Denon is rated lower at 125 WPC, 8 ohms, .05% THD, 2 channels driven but has a 670 watt power supply where as the Yamaha is rated at a higher 140 WPC, 8 ohms, .06% THD, 2 channels driven and yet has a weaker 490 watt power supply? Am I wrong because I always thought there was some correlation between the two or did one of them overrate or underrate their amp section.

There are definitely correlation between power output and power consumption but manufacturers don't seem to follow the same standard, so I do not believe you can be sure about what exactly the correlation is.

Yamaha had in the past specified "power consumption" and "maximum power consumption" for some of their AVRs. They didn't tell you what the basis of their "power consumption" and "maximum power consumption" were though.

Denon on the other hand only provided one number for power consumption but offered no details of what their basis were. People tend to assume it means when the AVR is outputting its rating power into all channels, but that's just their own assumptions. Power supplies typically can output much more than their rated power for a short duration, so that's another unknown since manufacturers don't tell you anything about "duration".

I find this whole power consumption thing confusing and I am sure it gets misunderstood/misinterpreted all the time. If you are comparing units by the same manufacturers then you probably can draw some reasonable conclusions, otherwise forget it.

I just checked the RX-A2040's manual and they actually rated the power consumption differently in different countries as well.

Canada - 400W
US - 490W
Korea - 390W

and then they specifed their "Maximum Power Consumption" 1210W.

That sort of support my belief that they do not follow one single universal standard.

I don't know your room dimensions and your listening level, but I would think that the difference in power outputs between the 2040 and 4100 won't make much difference for your speakers that are not hard to drive. If you believe in Audyssey XT32 and Sub EQ HT, go with the Denon, otherwise the Yamaha would be my choice.

 

[damnngina15]

Peng,

Yeah I saw that in the manual and since the Yamaha weighs about 10 lbs more than the Denon it has me wondering if that 670 watts on the Denon power supply is their "Maximum Power Consumption" which would make a little more sense. As far as the room size and listening levels the room is open on one side and is 19 feet x 12 feet and we like to crank it up (the wifey ecspecially when she is going on a cleaning binge).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

IMO. it all comes down to Audyssey XT32 Dynamic EQ vs Yamaha's own version and the final price.

I cannot do w/o Audyssey Dynamic EQ & Subwoofer EQ. So I would get the Denon even if it costs more.

But if you don't care for any of that, then just go with the best price.

 

[damnngina15]

Right now I can get the Denon for $800 and the Yamaha for $1100.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Right now I can get the Denon for $800 and the Yamaha for $1100.

That makes it 100% simple. It's a no-brainier. Get the MUCH less expensive Denon.

 

[PENG]

Yeah I saw that in the manual and since the Yamaha weighs about 10 lbs more than the Denon it has me wondering if that 670 watts on the Denon power supply is their "Maximum Power Consumption" which would make a little more sense.

I don't think so, manufacturers typically do not prefer stating their maximum power consumption because they a) that can add to the confusion without defining what it really means, and b) they don't want people to think their units are not as energy efficient as their competitor's. Energy efficiency is directed related to the operating cost. Even if that figure is meant to be "Maximum", since there is not a single universally adopted definition, the end user still will not know how to compare one unit's "Maximum power consumption" to another's. Weight is a reasonable indicator of the power supply output specs but material and efficiency are also key factors. It is possible that the power transformer and amp section including the heat sinks in the Denon have higher efficiency, have fans to help cooling, and are made of lighter material.

As far as the room size and listening levels the room is open on one side and is 19 feet x 12 feet and we like to crank it up (the wifey ecspecially when she is going on a cleaning binge).

19X12 ft is not that big, assuming the ceiling height is not more than 10 ft. If she does not crank the volume (assuming Denon) above say -15, you should be safe. It never hurts to add a two channel power amp though. The 4100 has preouts so that is not a problem.

 

[damnngina15]

I figured out a solution!!! Route the STB, PS3, and Apple TV to the HDMI inputs on the TV, route the audio via the TOSLINK audio out port on the TV to my current AVR (Denon AVR-2808ci) and then take the money I was going to spend on a receiver and buy a 200 WPC x 5 power amp!!!

 

[PENG]

I figured out a solution!!! Route the STB, PS3, and Apple TV to the HDMI inputs on the TV, route the audio via the TOSLINK audio out port on the TV to my current AVR (Denon AVR-2808ci) and then take the money I was going to spend on a receiver and buy a 200 WPC x 5 power amp!!!

That option is always there. However, your L,R,C speakers are powered so the internal amps take care of the woofers and the 2808 should have little trouble doing the rest. If you really want to have more than enough power on hand, you could just get a more powerful 2X300 WPC amp. Placebo typically works well in such scenario, been there, done that.. and it is always better than to have power that you don't need. In case you change your mind, I would say the 4100 with XT32, Sub EQ HT and DEQ should make your system sound better than just adding an external power amp, but then we all perceive things differently you never know.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would take the Denon 4100 for $800 unequivocally over any $800 200x5 amp any day.

 

[PENG]

I would take the Denon 4100 for $800 unequivocally over any $800 200x5 amp any day.

Perhaps opinions coming from someone who own high end speakers, fully differential pre-pro and power amps should naturally carry some weight. I guess even a pharmacist has to learn and respect the power of Placebo effects the hard way (after time and money spent).

 

[damnngina15]

The one problem we have is when we turn up the volume to high levels the sound loses it's quality (mid and low level frequencies sound hollow and the highs sound "tinny") and sound quality is something I would like to keep no matter what the volume is. As far as an amp I was possibly looking at an Emotiva XPA-5, Outlaw Model 7500, or possibly a used Rotel RMB-1095 or Sunfire Cinema Grand. Would neither of these solve my sound quality issues at higher volumes or would I still be stuck with the same problem?

If I go from my current receiver (Denon AVR-2808ci) which is rated at 110 WPC w/ 2 channels driven to the X4100 which is rated just slightly higher at 125 WPC w/ 2 channels driven I feel like I would still have the same issue I have now. They both have the same sound processing as far as dobly and dts are concerned and my current denon has Audyssey MultEQ XT and the X4100 has Audyssey MultEQ XT32. I am not too concerned about the hdmi or video processing as the X4100 does not have HDCP 2.2, hense the reason I will send all of my video to the TV's HDMI ports. This is my current reasoning for leaning torwards an amp instead of a new receiver.

All of your comments have been appreciated so far and I thank you for any further advice you can give me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am not too concerned about the hdmi or video processing as the X4100 does not have HDCP 2.2, hense the reason I will send all of my video to the TV's HDMI ports. This is my current reasoning for leaning torwards an amp instead of a new receiver.

Is your Display and video sources all 4K resolution? Is that why you need HDCP 2.2?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The one problem we have is when we turn up the volume to high levels the sound loses it's quality (mid and low level frequencies sound hollow and the highs sound "tinny")

That may just be secondary to your speakers and subs, not the AVR/amp itself.

 

[damnngina15]

Is your Display and video sources all 4K resolution? Is that why you need HDCP 2.2?

My display is 4K and is HDCP 2.2. I would like anything I buy from now on to be HDCP 2.2 to help future proof my system as much as possible.

 

[damnngina15]

That may just be secondary to your speakers and subs, not the AVR/amp itself.

So you're saying the speakers are the source of my problem at higher volumes?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My display is 4K and is HDCP 2.2. I would like anything I buy from now on to be HDCP 2.2 to help future proof my system as much as possible.

Then I would definitely save the money anf wait to get the newer AVR w/ HDCP2.2.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[PENG]

The one problem we have is when we turn up the volume to high levels the sound loses it's quality (mid and low level frequencies sound hollow and the highs sound "tinny") and sound quality is something I would like to keep no matter what the volume is. As far as an amp I was possibly looking at an Emotiva XPA-5, Outlaw Model 7500, or possibly a used Rotel RMB-1095 or Sunfire Cinema Grand. Would neither of these solve my sound quality issues at higher volumes or would I still be stuck with the same problem?

With the XPA-5, you should be able to crank the volume about 3 dB higher before you get similar "loses it's quality" you said you were getting with the 2808. Could you tell us at what level you currently experience this loss in quality, like -15, 10?? The XPA-2 will likely allow you to crank a couple more dB. If your priority is power, to minimize sound quality loss at higher volume, XPA-2 is the way to go. On a per channel basis, the XPA-2 has significantly more power reserve than the XPA-5.

They both have the same sound processing as far as dobly and dts are concerned and my current denon has Audyssey MultEQ XT and the X4100 has Audyssey MultEQ XT32. I am not too concerned about the hdmi or video processing as the X4100 does not have HDCP 2.2, hense the reason I will send all of my video to the TV's HDMI ports. This is my current reasoning for leaning torwards an amp instead of a new receiver.

You may have to wait, currently only the flag ship model such as the Denon X7200W offers HDCP 2.2. As you already know, for now you can go directly to the TV for video and the AVR can still handle all the latest greatest audio formats via HDMI.

While waiting for the mid range HDCP 2.2 equipped AVR, you may in fact realize some gain by adding a XPA-2 now, assuming your speakers can actually take advantage of the additional power. I highly doubt that, but again you never know for sure until you try. Either way, it is a good feeling to have 300WX2 on hand for the L/R speakers, because then you know for sure you have more than enough power for stereo enjoyment.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Either way, it is a good feeling to have 300WX2 on hand for the L/R speakers

Yeah, who are we kidding? Every guy wants more amp power whether his speakers need it or not!

Personally I don't think I need more than 100WPC. But it doesn't stop me from having 300WPC.

 

[LOUMFSG]

I have a (hopefully) simple question - is there a difference between an AVR-X4100 and AVR-X4100W? I've seen it listed with and without the "W", and wonder if that means anything. Thanks in advance.