Yamaha or Outlaw

[SinCityDave]

<font color='#000000'>I am going to buy a home theater set up in the near future.  It will be used about 60 -40 theater to music.  I'm contemplating either the Yamaha RXZ-1 or the Outlaw preamp/pro and Outlaw 200x7 amp (both reviewed on Audioholics, but not compared head-to-head).  The lucky winner will be driving an Axiom Epic 80 speaker system (also favorably reviewed on Audioholics) and an SVS 20-39 subwoofer.
Which is the better choice?  They are almost exactly the same price on the net.  Yamaha certainly has a more well known name, some more bells and whistles (DSP modes more speaker outputs, more component inputs, etc), and I can hear it at a bricks and mortar store.  Still the Outlaw set up
gets great reviews, is (according to Audioholics) a clone of more expensive equipment, more powerful, and I don't know if I need tons of different DSP modes.  I am some what of a A/V and Hi-fi neophyte, but I have a pretty good ear.

I would really appreciate opinions regarding this.  I hate buyer's remorse more than poison.

Thanks</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>It is a matter of personal opinion, but Yamaha was one of the first on the block with DSP sound and have been developing them ever since. Their Cinema DSP modes as well as music DSP modes are excellent as they have evolved with time. The amp section on the RX-Z1 is excellent too and the components used in them is top notch.

I have the AZ-1 which is the same model minus the tuner and have been very happy with my buy. In the end, it is your ears that have to decide so I suggest a careful auditioning.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> and I don't know if I need tons of different DSP modes.  </td></tr></table>

The extra Yamaha DSP modes (club, Europe hall, etc) are not worth it, plain and simple.

I would recommend separates like the Outlaw which does get good reviews, and then when you are ready to upgrade to a higher quality HT processor you will still be able to keep your amp, even if you change speakers.

I never recommend going with a receiver, especially when the pricing for the separates works out to be about the same.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Actually Bruce, I am going to have to disagree with you here. &nbsp;The separates vs Receiver choice has become much more cloudy today then just a few years ago. &nbsp;Flagship Receiver products from Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, etc usually offer far more sophisticated processors than separates in the same price range. &nbsp;Many multi channel amps under $2500 really don't offer much of an advantage over many of the good mega receivers. &nbsp;In fact, I have seen some of the Outlaw amps which are purely Class G, with SNR @1watt of only around 80dB which is about 10dB worse than a good receiver from Yamaha Or Denon, etc. &nbsp;Given the Daves application where he is using very efficient, easy to drive speakers, I actually would recommend him a flagship receiver over similar priced entry level separates. &nbsp;Wait until you see my review of the Denon AVR-5803. &nbsp;It will make you wonder if separates at and even more than its price range are really worth it.

Lets take a generic example for the moment:
1) Flagship Receiver
2) Entry Level Separates
Both around the same price

#1 produces much high volumes than #2, therefore their cost of production is significantly lower. &nbsp;#1 can now offer a more sophisticated processing section (IE. Better DACS, Bass Management, etc)
#2 may offer a more powerful amp, but do you really need the power, and is the power worth the expense of poorer signal to noise ratio?

My point is, there are many things here to consider. &nbsp;Since we have recently had experience with both, I am no longer turning my back on flagship receivers and now being more critical on these entry level and costlier separates as a result.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Gene,

Everyone gets an opinion.

My opinion still stands, I would NEVER buy a receiver!!!!!

With a receiver, you are absolutely stuck unless you own or buy efficient speakers, and 4 Ohm speakers are not allowed.

I personally do not agree that a receiver can sound as good as even mid-priced separates (although efficient speakers make it closer).  I would even go as far as to recommend buying used amps and a prepro.  I wouldn't necessarily recommend an Outlaw prepro, but instead a used Lexicon DC-2/MC-1 for $900/$1.4K.

I could get much better sound for a whole lot less buying used than a new Denon 5803, no matter what it's features.  
I have a long list of friends who sold Denon 5800 receivers for prepros and would never go back!!!</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Bruce : <font color='#000000'>Everyone gets an opinion.

My opinion still stands, I would NEVER buy a receiver!!!!!</font>

<font color='#008080'>Hey, at least you don't mess around and let everyone know your viewpoint &amp; opinions. I for one, appreciate that much more than someone who pretends to be neutral and espouses their viewpoint as being &quot;unbiased&quot;.

You and Yamahaluver are refreshing in that you wear your preferences on your sleeve and &nbsp;do not hide them - thanks for your honesty and contributions.</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Thanks for your word of support hawke.

Just wanted to add that my Yamaha speakers are rated at 6ohms nominal and the amp on the DSP-AZ1 runs whole day at volume levels higher than nominal and yet there are no problems. Better yet, my younger brother has the RXV-800, older Yamaha receiver and he drives his head banger stuff on his very difficult Magnepans without any hitch whatsoever. Properly designed amp sections with good high power transformers are easily able to drive difficult loads. Gene did a test on the RXZ-1 and found its amp section to be top notch.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Interesting Bruce seing that all of my reference speakers are 4ohm rated with medium sensitivity, yet I was able to achieve SPL levels over 100dB in a 20X18 room with vaulted ceilings with a Yamaha RX-Z1 and Denon AVR-5803.  In fact, last night I was listening to a DVD-A disc from Graham Nash and easily exceeded 100dB SPL levels for over 25 mins and the Denon AVR-5803 only got warm to the touch. &nbsp;BTW, it is not a Class G amp, it stays in Class AB at high power levels!

I have had a wide assortment of pre/pro &amp; power amp combos at or more money than some of these receivers and have been pleasantly surprised with the performance of flagship receivers.  In fact, I have been so enamored with the performance of the Denon AVR-5803 that it has me contemplating dumping my far more expensive pre klipsch Aragon separates, at least the Soundstage.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but ruling out an option with blanket statements like &quot;I would never buy a receiver&quot; is just plan conceited IMO.  IF you only knew the lack of engineering in many of these entry level separates, you would think twice.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but ruling out an option with blanket statements like &quot;I would never buy a receiver&quot; is just plan conceited IMO. </td></tr></table>
If you'll notice, I didn't tell others to do it, but stated it as My Opinion.  Not conceited, just plain fact.  I prefer an amplifier (even class AB) with a high bias class A output and I have 4 Ohm speakers.  No receiver is going to provide this to my satisfaction, and that is fact!  If you noticed, I qualified that statement with a caveat, high sensitivity speakers change the equation.  My speakers are low sensitivity @86dB.

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> IF you only knew the lack of engineering in many of these entry level separates, you would think twice.</td></tr></table>
I'm quite familiar with the engineering relating to PCB layout, digital chips, and analog sections as my 10 year background is in the design of Ethernet LAN switches.  Including lots of trips to the Far East for contract manufacturing evaluations.  Lots of sloppy work over there (including HT equipment).

And I say it again anyone is free to send the receiver into shutdown mode or destroy a set of speakers with most receivers that aren't designed to handle 4 Ohm speakers.   I don't know Denon 5803 specifics, nor have I listened to the 5803.

The worst sounding HT receiver (actually it's an integrated amp) I've ever owned (10 years ago?) was a Yamaha DSP-A1000.  It was awful.  Thin sounding with no bass impact even when only running 2-channel source into L&amp;R mains.  And I must say, the gimmicky DSP modes (club, church, etc) and additional &quot;Front Effects&quot; speakers did not impress me with any kind of quality sound.

It all comes down to a fundamental question,
&quot;Do you think you will want to tweak/upgrade in the near future?&quot;
If the answer is maybe, then going with separates gives you many more options than buying a new receiver every few years.  It allows much more flexibility in the selection of crossovers, EQs, amps (mono to 7-channel), and speakers.</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Bruce, my speakers are about 87dB/1watt sensitive, 4 ohms. &nbsp;The Denon AVR-5803 and Yamaha RX-Z1 had to complaints about driving them, never shut off either. &nbsp;Dont' get me wrong, I love my pre klipsch Aragon amps and felt they delivered a bit more slam than the internal amps of both receivers, but never were these receivers &quot;damaging&quot; to my speakers. &nbsp;Never did I detect audible clipping or distortions. &nbsp;Many of today's so called high power multi channel amplifiers are nothing more than sound reinforcement equipment given their poor SNR's. &nbsp;note ,most amp companies rate SNR at full power, this is misleading to the unknowing consumer IMO.

Note also , that many of these entry level separates such as those multi channel post klipsch Aragon amps, don't really deliver more power than many of the flagship receivers. &nbsp;They just rate them differently. &nbsp;I am not pro receiver, anti separates as much as an advocate of looking into both options and comparing them objectively, based on comparible measurement criteria. &nbsp;Thanks for your feedback and I enjoy this discussion. &nbsp;

</font>

 

[SinCityDave]

<font color='#000000'>Thanks for the opinions thus far. &nbsp;While I'm sure the Lexicon pre/pro is a fine product as is the Denon 5803, they are simply out of my budget. &nbsp;I've only got around $2K to spend on the amp and processor, so these are out of my price range (e.g. Denon 5803 averages about $2,900 online, where as the RXZ-1 is only (yeah, only) $1,900. &nbsp;If there is anything else I should consider in this price range, I'd be sure and check it out.

Gene, thanks for taking such an active part in this discussion. &nbsp;Could you elaborate more on &quot;the lack of engineering in many of these entry level separates . . .&quot;? &nbsp;Is Outlaw one of the many? &nbsp;What form does this lack of engineering take? &nbsp;

Also, could you mention something about the RXZ-1 driving 4 ohm speakers. &nbsp;The axiom people actually recommend Yamaha stuff (or at least the person with whom I spoke recommended it to me), saying that no other main stream receiver manufacturer &quot;does 4 ohm loads like Yamaha . . . they are the king for 4 ohm speakers.&quot; &nbsp;Not to sound like an audio wuss, but I have neighbors, and since I live in Las Vegas, they are located painfully close to me. &nbsp;The number of times I'm going to be able to crank it up past 100/110 dbs for an extended period of time will be limited. &nbsp;The 200 watts of the Outlaw appeals to my desire for headroom and a certain testosterone driven desire for power, but am I better off with 130 watts of power at 0.015 thd in the Yamaha or Outlaw's more hairy-knuckled but more distorted 200 watts.

Just because I mentioned Gene by name, don't think I don't appreciate and invite everyone's input.

Thanks -</font>

 

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>As I mentioned before, Yamaha uses really high end caps, transistors and transformers for their products and the RXZ-1 is their flagship one so utmost care is taken.

Most Yamaha receivers can easily drive 4 ohms load and takes speakers like Magnepans with ease.

Their seperate power amps are rated to drive into 1ohm load. I use a 260wpc Yamaha seperate for the main out and can tell you that my VUs never hit over 110 and by that point, your ears are on pain threshold. So my suggestion would be to go for the RXZ-1. Not only does it fit your budget, but as Gene would tell you, it is also a competent performer.</font>

 

[Khellandros66]

<font color='#000000'>This may or may not sound relevant but I have the Yamaha RX-V1300 A/V Receiver, and all I could possibly do for this receiver in the future is Upgrade to the Yamaha MX-1 and I have Definitive ProMonitor200s which are 4-8Ohms capable, and I almost blew them out in 4ohms setting, not because of distortion, but pure power.
Go with the RX-Z1, for the money the only next best thing would be the new Denon AVR-4802R, which is a available on Crutchfield.com
http://www.crutchfield.com/cgi-bin....1&avf=N

~

Bob</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Dave,
Below I have provided a few links to give you an idea of how you can get almost state of the art Digital Signal Processing (DSP) with used equipment and still allow you to upgrade different parts later on.  This is just an FYI to stimulate the thought processes around your $2k budget.  

Lexicon is an industry standard in DSP (actually produces equipment for the production studios) and thus far and away more experienced with digital algorithms than either Denon or Yamaha.  I don't own any Lexicon products by the way.  But many HT users agree Lexicon's Logic-7 the best way to go for a 7.1 system.


Lexicon MC-1 at $1300
HT processor

I had many other examples of amps here, but somehow lost them in the edit process.

There were a number of 5-channel and 2-channel amps (Rotel, B&amp;K, Parasound) that combined were at or below $1000.

Not that you want it, but an Outlaw 7-channel at $779
7-channel amp</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Bruce;

I don't think its fair to compare new receivers with used separates. &nbsp;We are speaking strictly retail. &nbsp;Buying used is a great idea for money savings, but some people prefer the &quot;new&quot; appeal and the warranty that goes along with it.

The true challenge given the stated budget of consumer above is finding a pre/pro that is as flexible and competent as many of today's flagship receivers. &nbsp;I have still yet to find any Pre/Pro under $4k that has all of the features (not just DSP modes) of a good flagship receiver. &nbsp;Stay tuned for my review on the Denon AVR-5803 where I will expand upon this.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>Gene,

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I don't think its fair to compare new receivers with used separates.  </td></tr></table>

How can you make a statement like that?

I think it's simply unethical for you to make that statement.

If someone doesn't want to buy used, fine, but I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out of hand like you did.

Worth is in the eye of the beholder, and many HT users agree you can get a whole lot more for your money buying used.

A new receiver is even worse than buying a new car off the lot.  A new receiver likely loses more than 50% of it's value after leaving the showroom floor.</font>

 

[SinCityDave]

<font color='#000000'>Bruce: &nbsp;Thanks for the info. &nbsp;I'll check this stuff out.

Bob: &nbsp;Thanks to you too. &nbsp;Just what an indecisive person with borderline OCD when it comes to research needs - more options. &nbsp;I'm curious, are you the type of satist to take a person that can't make up their mind between chocolate and vanilla to Baskin Robbins? &nbsp;Just kidding. &nbsp;I appreciate your input.

I have considered the 4802R, but ruled it out. &nbsp;Don't get me wrong. &nbsp;I've owned Denon in the past and was pleased. &nbsp;I remember I bought a Denon amp for my car in 1988 or 89. &nbsp;No one had even heard of them then. &nbsp;Anyway, for $400 bucks I got a little more power, lower thd, more channels and a better remote. &nbsp;Plus, I have read reviews that the 4802R heats up quite a bit (a liability in Las Vegas - it was around 250 degrees here this weekend), particularly when driving 4 ohm speakers. &nbsp;BTW, Crutchfield is high on price. &nbsp;Crazy Eddie has the 4802R for &gt;$1,500.

Thanks again to all that have contributed. &nbsp;Its nice to hear valid, fairly well supported information that doesn't get nasty and personal like some forums, and the easy identification of those with strong, particular opinions (I think the ID &quot;Yamahaluver&quot; says it all).</font>

 

[Audioholics]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Bruce : <font color='#000000'>I think it's simply unethical for you to make that statement.</font>

<font color='#008080'>Bruce,

In all fairness, I think this is uncalled for. Perhaps you aren't using the right word. Gene's statement is hardly unethical as it makes perfect sense given this thread.

You, as you may recall, are the one who suggested purchasing used gear. There is certianly a significant difference between purchasing used gear at a discounted price and comparing it to top of the line receivers at retail. While anything can be compared, we are suggesting state of the art processing technology solutions with excellent amplification - quite different from some of the used options you are recommending.

While you are welcome to post here, and we do not unnecessarily censor posts, you might want to check your words before you call the owner of the website &quot;unethical&quot;, don't you agree?

Let's play nice and try to have a formulative discussion.

My personal opinion is that for a $2000 budget, and all bias and preconceived ideas aside, you cannot go wrong with the Yamaha RX-Z1 based on the data and how we have personally perceived the performance and sound.

As for 4-ohm speakers, my Axiom Audio Epic 80 system has been driven quite successfully at high, sustained SPL levels with my RX-V3000 (before I upgraded the amp to a Sherbourn 7/2100.)

By the way, what a QUALITY problem... choosing between $2000 receivers/pre-pro/amps...

</font>

 

[SinCityDave]

<font color='#000000'>Hawke:

Thanks for weighing in. &nbsp;I hoped you would since you run the axioms. &nbsp;By the way, what else am I going to spend 2K on? &nbsp;My wife? &nbsp;My kids' education? &nbsp;My wife's circa 1982 Sergio Valente jeans fit her just fine, and my kids don't need no fancy book learn'in anyway.</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>hawke,

Well let's be perfectly honest, I have absolutely no financial interest in what this member buys, so I'm free to suggest anything that get's him the best bang for his buck.  That is what I was trying to do with his original question:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am going to buy a home theater set up in the near future...Which is the better choice?</td></tr></table>

So, I don't think anything I said was uncalled for.</font>