Yamaha or Denon with Polk Speakers?

[PhillyDan1969]

I visited my local Tweeter today (actually I live in Mississippi and the nearest Tweeter is in Birmingham, AL, but that's another thread altogether) to pick up a Denon DVD2200 (got a great deal) and I inquired into upgrading my receiver. I currently own a Yamaha RX-V992 and when you consider it is pre-DTS you can imagine it is well past time for an upgrade. My speakers are Polk RTi series and I asked the saleman to demo both the Denon avr3805 and the Yamaha RX-V2500. Immediately the salesman declared that the Yamaha was the best choice for my speakers. He says that the bright sound of the Polks is made even brighter with the Denon and in his opinion the Yamaha give the Polks a warmer quality then the Denon.

Obviously the Yamaha receiver costs about $200 less than the Denon and I have always been a big Yamaha fan but lately I have really been researching both receivers and I am leaning toward the Denon. So I was biased toward the Denon going into the demo while the salesman seemed biased toward the Yamaha and in the end I had to agree with him that the Yamaha did sound better with the RTi's. Despite this I like the Denon because a speaker upgrade within the next year is probably likely and I too am hoping that Denon will release a sub $1000 dollar Universal DVD player that will support the Denon Link feature of the 3805.

So outside someone stating which receiver they would buy I am looking for any opinions from people who may have either of these receiver/Polk speaker combinations and how they feel about them when listening to strictly music and how they feel about them while watching movies. I tend to be a big movie guy but with the univeral player I am looking forward to both DVD-Audio and SACD!!! Thanks for any advice and opinions and I really enjoy reading these forums.

 

[Beegowl]

Receiver differences are inaudible

These forums are quite informative and I really hand it to the guys whose entrepreneurial spirit prodded them into developing it. Now...your question prompts me to review some of the threads and the audio enthusiasts who claim that no objective difference exists in receivers of the same class in terms of sound. In my limited experience I have found that to be true. My experience is admittedly unscientific and lacking objective evidence, but I have never been able to ascertain a difference in sound of different receivers with the same speakers. You can definitely make them sound different using the different sound field settings, tone controls, etc, of which there are an infinite number of adjustments that can be made to the receiver output to the speakers. All of which have an impact on the sound output. IMO, you should look for the features on the receiver that you like, read the reviews so that you know you're getting a good value, and choose based on features and value. Trying to differentiate the sound of the receiver between the ones you mentioned, although many may claim they can, is IMHO, a waste of time.

Because I've read many of the posts in all of the threads, I know there are those who disagree. If they can make a compelling argument, great. Go for it.

 

[20to20K]

I agree that any difference is minimal...

I was in an almost identical situation as yours...except replace the Polk LSi series with the RTi. I bought a Denon 2200, the Polk LSi 15's, but the guy at Tweeter (in Maryland) swore that the Denon receiver was better for music than the Yamaha. So you know what they say about opinions...

I chose the Denon...I liked the features, the look, and my own personal experience with the brand. If the Yammie sounds better to you than you certainly are not going wrong with the choosing it. If you really want that Denon Link capablity then you should go with the Denon. Both sounded similiar to me on the Polk LSi15's...I let the features make the choice for me.

I'm thinking you'd have to move all the way up to a Rotel or even higher to make a noticible leap in sound quality of a reciever.

Also...I'm with you hoping a denon link universal comes out that's less than
$1000...but I'm not holding my breath. The 3910 is still hovering closer to
$1500 unless you buy grey market on Ebay.

Good luck!

 

[Frankie]

I have really been researching both receivers and I am leaning toward the Denon. .

Denon is a very safe way to go and offer very good value for money!

Universal DVD player that will support the Denon Link feature of the 3805.

Yes the Denon 3805 supports the newest third edition link (3rd) which offers superiour pure digital to digital sound, but the DVD player would also need to have the pure Link connection to work.

I am looking forward to both DVD-Audio and SACD!!! Thanks for any advice and opinions and I really enjoy reading these forums.

You will find that the new 3805 offers great sound and easy to use which will blow you away if like most systems set-up correctly, when playing DVD-Audio 96kHz 24bit music.

Yamaha is very good and i am not going to knock it, and between the 2 systems, it is down to control knobs and looks, since both are a close match in both sound and picture quality.

 

[PENG]

I'm thinking you'd have to move all the way up to a Rotel or even higher to make a noticible leap in sound quality of a reciever.

I am not sure if Rotel will necessarily sound better. I tried listening to music using the Denon's pre-outs to drive my Adcom, and Bryston power amps. In either case, I failed to hear any difference, except the amps subjectively sound better at very loud level. The 3805 did fine with my RTi38 speakers, it did not sound bright at all.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

May be able to help...

Interesting thread. I have the Denon 3805 with Polk RTi10's in the front, CSi5 as the center, RTi4's as the rear surrounds, and FXi3's as the side surrounds. I upgraded from a Yamaha to this Denon and find many differences. The soundstaging and separation is much better in the Denon. My Yamaha was brighter, but not as smooth. I listen to a lot of music and the Denon seems to recreate my cd's the best-especially at low volume. The Polks and the Denon IMO are not bright at all, rather, somewhat soft and realistic. It may be how I have the unit set up, but it doesn't try to be something it's not. The Denon is a more solidly built unit, and heavy like a Harman Kardon. It doesn't seem to be as efficient as the Yamaha, but neither are my Polks. You have to juice them a bit for dvd's, but they really shine if the wife doesnt complain about the theater like sound. I've found there are three types of AV receivers - your low end units that run under $300 (inflated specs and high distortion); then your mid level up to $1200 (like mine), then your top notch units over $1200 but more in the range of $1500 - $5000. Once you get up in that range, you should be considering separates. Had money not been a factor, I would have purchased the new Marantz SR8500 - www.marantz.com ; or waited for the new Denon AVR4806 not out yet - both THX certified. Have fun searching and let us know what you've decided on!

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I have a Denon 3805 and Polk RTI12's. I researched for months before i bought everything. Almost everyone has said the Yammie, although an excellent piece, is brighter musically than the Denon. I am telling you flat out the Polk RTI12's are bright. The Denon sounds excellent. The Yammie with the Polks will give you a headache. . Do not get the yammie with the RTI series. You will be disappointed. I love treble and actually have damaged my hearing from too much loud music when I was younger and treble is not as loud to me and the Polks with the Yammie were STILL too bright....was an awful match.

That salesman could not be more wrong. Totally got it the opposite. The yammie is bright. The Denon is warm. Let my research tell you and save you serious time and headaches.

You know the RTi series is for home theatre more than the LSi series right? However I have no complaints musically, Some say the RTi series is better for rock music than the LSi's. I am more a rock fan.

Then again, you said you had the RTI10's I think. They are not near as bright as the 12's. Or the 8's. maybe the yammie will be a good match.

My next question is: Why did you buy the 10's? The 8's are better than he 10's as the 10's lack serious midrange. And my 12's are 8's with 3 woofers. if it's not too late, take them back. I am not dissing you, just letting you know I have had all 3 in my house with both the Yammie 1500 (same as 2500) AND THE DENON 3805.

I suggest you go to Polk Audio forums for more info. They really helped me out and they know Polks better than anyone on this site...

 

[Venger]

Here's the deal...

If you listened to them, and preferred the Yamaha, then BUY IT. If you don't, you'll always think you got the one that didn't sound as good. Everytime you hear something, you'll think "Is this the best it should be sounding"?

I was torn between these two, and chose the Yamaha, but would be perfectly happy with the Denon. If you really love the layout or the remote of the Denon, get it.

And for what it's worth, most observations in the sound difference between solid-state receivers are Emperor's New Clothes observations...

Venger

 

[PhillyDan1969]

Thanks...

For all the replies. Again I enjoy all the advice and information that these forums provide.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

PD,

Did you see the article on the new Denon 3910? It was just posted today - www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/DenonDVD3910Review1.php

BTW, what RTi set up do you have? You mentioned you may upgrade your speakers in the next year. Would you stay with Polk, or change? That makes a huge difference. One of the members above said the RTi10's were lacking in midrange. Rock, his preference, has a ton of midrange. Thus, a logical choice for the RTi8's or RTi12s which feature two midrange drivers. Jazz and Classical rely more on mid bass and hi's. The RTi8's don't offer any woofers. You would really need to rely on a separate subwoofer with that speaker. I found the crossovers in the RTi10's were best, being set at 125Hz and 2.7Hz. In the RTi12s, they are set at 120Hz and 1.8khz. The midrange, or "voice", in the RTi10's had a wider spectrum than the 12's to allow the tweeter to produce the best hi's. That makes a difference depending on which receiver you choose and what music you listen to.

In college, my preference was rock - loud and distorted with the 10 band eq. The Yamaha receiver produced the best, most efficient sound for my 500cd collection and the parties to go along with it. It was bright, loud, and did wonders with my AAL 12" 3 way horn loaded speakers (not to mention the happy faced eq settings). Everyone has their own preferences, and the only one that should matter is your ears. The RX-V2500 is a killer receiver, as is the Denon 3805. Demo them with your future speaker choices if you are going to upgrade. Best of luck!

 

[PhillyDan1969]

future speakers?

Well I currently am set up with RTi10s up front, RTi6s as surrounds, CSi5 as my center and my old PSW202 which recently started giving me problems (upgrade on my subwoofer should happen within the next week).

The day I posted this thread I visited a local music store called Morrison Brothers (they specialize in musical equipment but they also have a nice Home Theatre Install department) and I auditioned some Jamo speakers running off the Denon AVR 3805. In terms of straight retail cost these speakers would probably not be in my budget range but the guy was really cool and he mentioned that they were about to upgrade installing only Induction Dynamics speakers and that he might be able to give a sweet deal on some Jamos as they make the transition.

If this pans out than I might just buy the Jamos, if not then I am considering the Paradigms if I can find somewhere nearby that sells them and will allow me to demo them. Mississippi is not a hot bed for us audioholic types it appears and it is hard to find quality products. Heck I have to drive to Birmingham just so I can get to a Denon/Yamaha dealer.

By the way I am probably going to buy the Denon AVR 3805. My biggest decision now is whether or not I want to buy online at like Crutchfield (no shipping fees and no local taxes, just straight up $1199) or if I want to drive to Birmingham, AL and visit the local Tweeter again, pay the sales tax but be able to bring the receiver home with me immediately. Decisions, decisions!!!

 

[shokhead]

3805 for $850 at Dakmart.com

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Shokhead, PD,

Great advice. I bought my 3805 at Ubid.com for $840 out the door (shipping was $22 -Fed Ex!). It was B stock, but arrived in A1 condition and absolutely no problems or scratches. I got the older "hard to see" black remote, but emailed Denon and they are exchanging it for the new blue foil one free of charge. Denon-Great company. I can't believe Dakmart is offering the 4802 for $1199. Ubid doesnt have any 3805's at the moment, but I think Dakmart offers the better 1 yr warranty. Denon recommends both sites, so save yourself the $350 and get it from Dakmart (or if you don't mind older technology - spend the $1199 and get the killer 4802!) I'm still amazed at that price! That was originally a $2500 unit, weighs almost 50lbs, and is THX Ultra II certified if you get the "R" model. Wooooow.

 

[Leprkon]

You can definitely make them sound different using the different sound field settings, tone controls, etc, of which there are an infinite number of adjustments that can be made to the receiver output to the speakers. All of which have an impact on the sound output. IMO, you should look for the features on the receiver that you like, read the reviews so that you know you're getting a good value, and choose based on features and value. Trying to differentiate the sound of the receiver between the ones you mentioned, although many may claim they can, is IMHO, a waste of time.

given the large number of combinations a dealer must prepare for, it's not very likely the Denon set-up was optimized for the speakers you wanted to hear. That being said, whatever you buy, see if the dealer has a decent return policy so you can switch if it doesn't match you room and speakers.

Both are solid choices. The sound quality between these two will more likely depend on how well you do your set-up than which one you buy.

Sine you just bought a 2200 DVD player, I'm hoping you can wait a year for BlueRay or HDDVD so you don't make a mid-year upgrade just for the I-link you mentioned and then again to the new format...

 

[hammong]

I've got a Yamaha RX-V2500 paired with Polk RTi10 fronts, CSi3, and RTi4 rear/side surrounds, and I'm pleased with the sound. I did the YPAO calibration set for "Flat" and compared it with "Natural" and "Front" and find the flat setting to be more to my liking for movies, but "Front" more to my liking for music. Whats the difference, you say? The RTi10 + Yamaha combination -IS- very bright, and I prefer a bright sound for music, but a more flat reference sound for movie soundtracks.

I've always been the type who set my Treble higher than the Bass in the car, and prefer a treble-biased EQ curve on systems that have a graphic EQ. With the Yamaha-Polk combination, I leave everything "flat" and I'm happy. =)

Greg

 

[PhillyDan1969]

Denon it is...

Got the 3805 today from a local authroized Denon dealer (Hoopers, I actually forgot that they were an authroized dealer until I did the search at Denon.com). Anyway after haggling with the manager about the price for about 25 minutes I convinced him to sell it to me for $1000 plus the local 7% sales tax.

I had to work shortly after that so I just got home and I haven't yet begun the process of setting it up but I will be working on it all day tomorrow. I will let you know how it works out.

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Interesting Buckeye Fan you would think the RTI12's were not as good with the highs as your 10s. I found my comparison to be quite the opposite. If anything, the 12's and 8's are TOO Bright. The 10's sounded like there was a big hole in the soundstage in the midrange. And with any of them, the 8's 10's or 12's, you need a sub. bass is weak on all of them IMO. It's just that the 12's fill the room up better... But like you said it all comes down to the listener's ears.

 

[shokhead]

Interesting Buckeye Fan you would think the RTI12's were not as good with the highs as your 10s. I found my comparison to be quite the opposite. If anything, the 12's and 8's are TOO Bright. The 10's sounded like there was a big hole in the soundstage in the midrange. And with any of them, the 8's 10's or 12's, you need a sub. bass is weak on all of them IMO. It's just that the 12's fill the room up better... But like you said it all comes down to the listener's ears.

How do you deal with the brightness?

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I have a 200W NAD amp on the lows of the Polks and it seems to have corrected the problem and balanced the highs and lows nicely. I like treble more than most people I think and may have done some damage to my hearing when I was younger so i don't hear highs as well as I should. They should ban earbuds....

Room acoustics play a big part too. i have hard wood floors and this creates more brightness i am sure.

When i had my NAD biwired to both the highs and lows it was so bright I was getting a headache. Went back to my Denon 3805 on the highs and it was better.


JC

 

[shokhead]

I have a 200W NAD amp on the lows of the Polks and it seems to have corrected the problem and balanced the highs and lows nicely. I like treble more than most people I think and may have done some damage to my hearing when I was younger so i don't hear highs as well as I should. They should ban earbuds....

Room acoustics play a big part too. i have hard wood floors and this creates more brightness i am sure.

When i had my NAD biwired to both the highs and lows it was so bright I was getting a headache. Went back to my Denon 3805 on the highs and it was better.


JC

Playing the Beatles full blast with headphones killed off my hearing as its 24/7 ringing. My treble is -1 and bass is +1. Everything sounds brite to me. Oh,we're talking 71 or so. Having 6X9 co-axles behind my head in my GMC Sprint didnt help either.LOL