Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

T

tparm

Audioholic
The 2016 Denon AVR-X4300H dropped front wide, for instance.

I saw that, but they brought it back with the 8500/8015. My wides play, frequently, but not sure if it’s me AVM upmixing since they are connected and active or if it’s actual content mixed to those channels.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
I saw that, but they brought it back with the 8500/8015. My wides play, frequently, but not sure if it’s me AVM upmixing since they are connected and active or if it’s actual content mixed to those channels.
The root of it is that almost nobody uses the width option. I think that may be the main issue since most folks are going to just have LCR, and a lot will hardly have room for that, asking to have two MORE speakers outside of your LR is a lot, and most rooms wouldn't accommodate.

AVRs came with width options before the object based formats showed up. My Onkyo 809 has the option, and it's getting old.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
From memory…
Atmos supports FL FLC C FRC FR. No actual discrete “wide” channels. What does pass through them using an Atmos mix are no static objects locked to a speaker. So basically objects pan through them. OR, DSU uses them to upmix to matrixly(yes I just made that up!) lol
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
From memory…
Atmos supports FL FLC C FRC FR. No actual discrete “wide” channels. What does pass through them using an Atmos mix are no static objects locked to a speaker. So basically objects pan through them. OR, DSU uses them to upmix to matrixly(yes I just made that up!) lol
I hadn't looked into this in a bit, but Dolby has increased their documentation a lot. Lots of good stuff for every speaker config.

https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/

11.1.8 is something I'd like to hear at some point. That's a LOT of speakers in a single room.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
The root of it is that almost nobody uses the width option. I think that may be the main issue since most folks are going to just have LCR, and a lot will hardly have room for that, asking to have two MORE speakers outside of your LR is a lot, and most rooms wouldn't accommodate.

AVRs came with width options before the object based formats showed up. My Onkyo 809 has the option, and it's getting old.
Agree, lucky enough to have a dedicated space and I do have width channels (ones that work well actually, LSiM 702s) but I’m in the middle of updating amps and 11 channel amp count is a pain since I have a C298 for my LR channels. 9CH much easier, I’ll just get a 7CH to compliment the 298. Just tough to remove something already in place unless it’s semi-pointless anyway. I’m not one to upmix anything except crappy TV if it isn’t 5.1. So, deleting my width channels may not be much of a loss.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
This is a nice guide, thanks. Wides are still represented but I understand maybe @William Lemmerhirt they may not be discrete channels.
I have no idea, that's why I posted the link to the Dolby page. I would imagine that a lot of Atmos mixes don't use all the available channels, but I had thought they were truly object based so it wouldn't matter what channels the AVR or processor had, atmos would work.

Could be wrong though. I do know that when I rip movies and look at the info, it specifies 16ch of info available. Number of dynamic objects is 11. I'll have to look up exactly what that means.


2022-01-13 18_32_49-MediaArea.net_MediaInfo - Y__ServerFolders_Movies_Finished_No Time to Die ...png
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
I have no idea, that's why I posted the link to the Dolby page. I would imagine that a lot of Atmos mixes don't use all the available channels, but I had thought they were truly object based so it wouldn't matter what channels the AVR or processor had, atmos would work.

Could be wrong though. I do know that when I rip movies and look at the info, it specifies 16ch of info available. Number of dynamic objects is 11. I'll have to look up exactly what that means.


View attachment 53058
This is cool, thanks
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
This is a nice guide, thanks. Wides are still represented but I understand maybe @William Lemmerhirt they may not be discrete channels.
When you forget more than you remember…lol

I have no idea, that's why I posted the link to the Dolby page. I would imagine that a lot of Atmos mixes don't use all the available channels, but I had thought they were truly object based so it wouldn't matter what channels the AVR or processor had, atmos would work.

Could be wrong though. I do know that when I rip movies and look at the info, it specifies 16ch of info available. Number of dynamic objects is 11. I'll have to look up exactly what that means.


View attachment 53058
So afaik, Atmos for home supports 24.1.10 channels and a hundred some objects. The speaker layout doesn’t matter, as the renderer will use whatever speakers are available. Problem is when a soundtrack like a Disney locked 7.1.4 or 7.1.2 is used, it doesn’t matter if you have 9.1.6 plus wides etc. In that case, you have to upmix to use all speakers. That means pcm or use the 7.1 track.
This is all from memory. I am only 7.x.4 so my retention of anything higher is sketchy at best.
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
Thanks. I'm keeping my wide channels in play for now which means I am using inferior single ended amplification (BasX A2 & A7) for everything except my main LRs (C298 arrives tomorrow). I was thinking about moving to an Outlaw 7000x and running a 9CH vs 11Ch system but I think I'll sit tight for now. Until next week anyway.... :)
 
SithZedi

SithZedi

Audioholic
When I eventually get my hands on the A6A, I am going to deploy a 7.1.2 (Ext. Front) with a Parasound 2125 to drive the Front L/R.
That should do a decent job with Dolby Atmos..?
 
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sollyemmy

sollyemmy

Enthusiast
Best Buy is now stating 3 to 4 weeks. Bastards...
B&H Photo - Ordered on August 10th and it was still on backorder as of yesterday so cancelled it once i got the shipping and tracking information from Best Buy.
Best Buy - I ordered on December 16th and was shipped yesterday with delivery of tomorrow Jan 15th. Patience my friend
 
VonMagnum

VonMagnum

Senior Audioholic
He said: "Buy this product because you want its features, not because you think the $4,000 is bringing you superlative objective audio performance. There are $150 stereo DACs that easily outperform it on that front."

There is nothing extraordinary in his statement. We know he is primarily focused on DAC's performance. DAC-oriented reasoning is really simple. If a product for $150 can deliver very clean audio, equally clean performance of DAC in a product for $4,000 is a must, regardless of its other features. Engineering matters more for him, so inaudiable distortion does not always mean good DAC implementation. It's a purist view. Buyers are at liberty to ignore his findings and that's ok too.

A vaccine with ~70% of protection is good enough and not as good as the one with ~90% of protection. Both deliver protection, but if the one that delivers ~70% of protection was more expensive to produce, someone needs to ask questions about engineering process. Amir does exactly that in audio world.

That's why it's inexcusable to sell very expensive audio devices with average performing DACs, even if distortion is not audible. DAC engineering must be top notch if people pay thousands for AVRs/AVPs.
Inexcusable? You're clearly not an engineer or you'd never say that and I say that doubly for Amir. An AVR packed full of amps, video components etc. is not comparable to a one function headphone amplifier in terms of noise interference. It's not even in the same solar system! Expecting headphone DAC performance from a complex home theater processor, let alone a receiver with 9-11 power amplifiers in it is absurd to put it extremely mildly. Could it be done? Probably, but would it be worth the extra weight (to isolate/shield the electronics) and cost? If it were, don't you think someone would have by now? The Monoprice HTP-1 did over 100 and Amir still gave it a headless panther over his own voltage selection nonsense. Ridiculous.

Do you seriously believe every single engineer out there is stupid and that's why they can't manage the 120dB SINAD that would make Amir happy??? Amir is talking out his muffler about something he cannot fix, let alone design and it's that hypocrisy that really grinds. The fact these things are inaudible and people like yourself talk about "no excuses" when you probably can't even change a shower head without calling a plumber is what bugs me. You have no clue what you're talking about so maybe you just shouldn’t.

Look at the things talked about in this thread. Are front wides "discrete" with Atmos? Nobody supports wides after 2016. Really??? Is Atmos so poorly understood after 10 years people on places like this can't even answer those basic questions yet feel the need to criticize inaudible noise? Ridiculous.

Yes, Atmos supports front wides. Yes, they're rendered discrete from objects.

Contrary to popular belief, Home Atmos has only ONE bed channel. The 5.1 or 7.1 base layer is converted into *objects* on the home system and limited to a total of 15 plus the LFE. So rendering wides is no different from rendering mains.

No, support for wides didn't end in 2016 just because a few D&M models dropped it on 11-channel AVRs.

If I can fit 17.1 in a 12'x24' room, most people can fit a pair of wides. They go between mains and side surrounds. Whether they're on the front wall or side wall or somewhere in between doesn't matter so long as they're between them.

People are obsessed with the word "discrete" when it's lost its meaning in terms of usefulness or desirability. Cinema Atmos uses arrays for bed channels. Trinnov supports arrays at home and remapping technically makes arrays as well. I've been creating my own at home using outboard switches and mixers. Discrete isn't everything.
 
S

sk11vengeance

Enthusiast
So my A6A arrived today from Best Buy. First impressions are good, sounds great, I like all the additional settings that my Denon doesn't have such as more control over the speaker placements and better visual indication of that each setting is doing. Also the Dac setting for sound with the different roll offs is nice. Its sort of hard for me to try out a lot of settings right now till the firmware for 2.1 comes out since I use Pc's with 4k 120hz so I am anxiously waiting on that.
If I had to nitpick anything right now I'd say the front display is a bit small to see at my seating distance of about 10ft. Also the remote not having dedicated input buttons for each source like my Denon remote will take getting used to but I like that its backlit.

Here is a quick photo, please ignore the messy wires, I plan on sorting those when the 2.1 update comes out and I hookup new cables at the back of the unit.

20220114_204430.jpg
 
T

tparm

Audioholic
Inexcusable? You're clearly not an engineer or you'd never say that and I say that doubly for Amir. An AVR packed full of amps, video components etc. is not comparable to a one function headphone amplifier in terms of noise interference. It's not even in the same solar system! Expecting headphone DAC performance from a complex home theater processor, let alone a receiver with 9-11 power amplifiers in it is absurd to put it extremely mildly. Could it be done? Probably, but would it be worth the extra weight (to isolate/shield the electronics) and cost? If it were, don't you think someone would have by now? The Monoprice HTP-1 did over 100 and Amir still gave it a headless panther over his own voltage selection nonsense. Ridiculous.

Do you seriously believe every single engineer out there is stupid and that's why they can't manage the 120dB SINAD that would make Amir happy??? Amir is talking out his muffler about something he cannot fix, let alone design and it's that hypocrisy that really grinds. The fact these things are inaudible and people like yourself talk about "no excuses" when you probably can't even change a shower head without calling a plumber is what bugs me. You have no clue what you're talking about so maybe you just shouldn’t.

Look at the things talked about in this thread. Are front wides "discrete" with Atmos? Nobody supports wides after 2016. Really??? Is Atmos so poorly understood after 10 years people on places like this can't even answer those basic questions yet feel the need to criticize inaudible noise? Ridiculous.

Yes, Atmos supports front wides. Yes, they're rendered discrete from objects.

Contrary to popular belief, Home Atmos has only ONE bed channel. The 5.1 or 7.1 base layer is converted into *objects* on the home system and limited to a total of 15 plus the LFE. So rendering wides is no different from rendering mains.

No, support for wides didn't end in 2016 just because a few D&M models dropped it on 11-channel AVRs.

If I can fit 17.1 in a 12'x24' room, most people can fit a pair of wides. They go between mains and side surrounds. Whether they're on the front wall or side wall or somewhere in between doesn't matter so long as they're between them.

People are obsessed with the word "discrete" when it's lost its meaning in terms of usefulness or desirability. Cinema Atmos uses arrays for bed channels. Trinnov supports arrays at home and remapping technically makes arrays as well. I've been creating my own at home using outboard switches and mixers. Discrete isn't everything.
Thanks @VonMagnum, perhaps I misused the term discrete. I do agree that Dolby did not drop support wides in 2016, that comment surprised me on a few levels. I was asking, improperly perhaps, if engineers were mixing effects into wide channels. As I understand it, the standard most engineers use is 7.1.4 for Atmos meaning LCR, side and rear surrounds, 4 height channels and LFE. I understand that Atmos is object based and processors are smart enough to to send sound to speakers that are active in one’s system. When one thinks of how objects move in a movie, I’d think having rear channels would help portray the sense of objects moving overhead or past the MLP more so than front wide channels. My room is long but narrow, and I have a bar in the back which limits my rear channels placement. Also I feel my wide channels may be closer to the MLP than is ideal, especially since the mid and high frequency drivers are facing the MLP (Polk LSiM 702 f/x). For me I need to decide if moving my 702s to the side surround position and 703 bookshelves to the rear. In the rear position they would probably be only about 5 ft to the left and right and 3-4 ft behind the MLP; is that enough to provide the desired effect? I’m addition, they would only be a few behind the side surrounds. So, is 5.2.6 (meaning wides and 4 ceiling), 5.2.4 or traditional 7.2.4 with my limitations the best layout?
 

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Am_P

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Do you seriously believe every single engineer out there is stupid and that's why they can't manage the 120dB SINAD that would make Amir happy??? Amir is talking out his muffler about something he cannot fix, let alone design and it's that hypocrisy that really grinds.
Amir Majimoomoo,,,Computer Science BS dude turned management guy....A few of my former PhD students when i was in academia in a past life would have easily made him look like the bus boy...But, yes, he's a hero in these forums. :)
 
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