Yamaha AVENTAGE 2021 AV Receivers Bulk Up on Power and 8K Features

clone1008

clone1008

Full Audioholic
Well, some use facts with mixed in shots at new Aventage owner's. With like umm , (guinea pigs) umm (brainless fan club members). Lol, that there is some funny sh&t I tell you. Who spends, 4K on two speakers with 5 1/4" shrimp midget drivers, than gotta spend 3k on two, 3 subs to get bass cause them, home made midget driver speakers can't hit low enough Bass. :D
Like I said the "Ignore" option is a wonderful thing. ;)
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Full Audioholic
I have a question about how there can be hardware hit mess aka bad THD-N with the Yamaha architecture. From what I understand in the “signal processing flow” it’s going into an fpga then in Sabre ESS ES9026Pro then pre amp then amp. The DAC can’t introduce some distortion by itself, it’s supposed to get a 110db THD-N.

Then the pre amp and amp are capable of good performance, we saw that in pure mode.
So the weak point is the DSP/ FPGA that can totally can be reprogrammed so I don’t get the “won’t be fixed by firmware”. I hope the in detail review will teach me about AVR architecture.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
I have a question about how there can be hardware hit mess aka bad THD-N with the Yamaha architecture. From what I understand in the “signal processing flow” it’s going into an fpga then in Sabre ESS ES9026Pro then pre amp then amp. The DAC can’t introduce some distortion by itself, it’s supposed to get a 110db THD-N.

Then the pre amp and amp are capable of good performance, we saw that in pure mode.
So the weak point is the DSP/ FPGA that can totally can be reprogrammed so I don’t get the “won’t be fixed by firmware”. I hope the in detail review will teach me about AVR architecture.
May have something to do with that new Qualcomm hypersonic chip. It is mounted on a little pc broad by itself.
IMG_20211101_140858800~3.jpg
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
Who (they need to learn lesson) didn't both Denon and Yamaha post up before any units where released for sale, acknowledging to the public their AVR's had issues. It was reported by Gene on AH, that I noticed it back in umm May I believe. You're stating that they both knew their AVR' s weren't ready?
In a nutshell: both companies were forced to acknowledge publicly that their AVRs had serious issue with faulty HDMI boards when German tech magazine published a damning article after testing AVRs with GPUs and consoles. Here is the translation from October 23rd 2020. This was the first evidence they did not test AVRs properly.
Gene reported the issue on October 24th 2020, one day after original publication from Germany.
Wider explanation is here:
Both companies had lessons to learn from early releases in 2020. They naively hoped speedy ports were going to work without testing with pre-production gaming sources. In that sense, they were not ready. AVRs were released blindly. Entire world knew that consoles and graphics cards were coming in Q3-Q4 2020. Both SU and Yamaha had aggresive marketing campaign towards new segment of market - "Movies and games like never before" (not as bad, eh! ;) ). It took Sound United 7 months to release the adapter box and it is taking Yamaha more than a year to change boards of owners of 2020 models.

The scandal, or blunder if you wish, forced Yamaha to delay the three higher tier models for one year, as those units also had faulty HDMI boards with 24 Gbps ports. They simply did not release A4A, A6A and A8A in 2020 and replaced faulty boards in factories with new, second gen 40 Gbps chips that owners now have in their new beloved AVRs. Those ports are still not fully functional, as you know, pending firmware release.

24 Gbps port speed on 2020 models is yet another story... It took them entire year to actually admit this port speed publicly, as they did not state it in the specification, fearing low sale. When openly challenged about hiding port speed in the spec listing, they replied by saying: "...it might lack politeness...". The story is here:
It's good to know what actually happened in chronological order, to understand widespread anger from consumers who bought those machines. Fingers crossed new models finally work properly once firmware is released early in 2022.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

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So the weak point is the DSP/ FPGA that can totally can be reprogrammed so I don’t get the “won’t be fixed by firmware”.
Even if you reprogramm the chip, electrical traces are the ones that can also generate noise, and this is hardware. This is why some high-end PC motherboards employ 10 and even 12-layer PCB, to reduce interfences and noise along data lanes and isolate them as much as possible.
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
In a nutshell: both companies were forced to acknowledge publicly that their AVRs had serious issue with faulty HDMI boards when German tech magazine published a damning article after testing AVRs with GPUs and consoles. Here is the translation from October 23rd 2020. This was the first evidence they did not test AVRs properly.
Gene reported the issue on October 24th 2020, one day after original publication from Germany.
Wider explanation is here:
Both companies had lessons to learn from early releases in 2020. They naively hoped speedy ports were going to work without testing with pre-production gaming sources. In that sense, they were not ready. AVRs were released blindly. Entire world knew that consoles and graphics cards were coming in Q3-Q4 2020. Both SU and Yamaha had aggresive marketing campaign towards new segment of market - "Movies and games like never before" (not as bad, eh! ;) ). It took Sound United 7 months to release the adapter box and it is taking Yamaha more than a year to change boards of owners of 2020 models.

The scandal, or blunder if you wish, forced Yamaha to delay the three higher tier models for one year, as those units also had faulty HDMI boards with 24 Gbps ports. They simply did not release A4A, A6A and A8A in 2020 and replaced faulty boards in factories with new, second gen 40 Gbps chips that owners now have in their new beloved AVRs. Those ports are still not fully functional, as you know, pending firmware release.

24 Gbps port speed on 2020 models is yet another story... It took them entire year to actually admit this port speed publicly, as they did not state it in the specification, fearing low sale. When openly challenged about hiding port speed in the spec listing, they replied by saying: "...it might lack politeness...". The story is here:
It's good to know what actually happened in chronological order, to understand widespread anger from consumers who bought those machines. Fingers crossed new models finally work properly once firmware is released early in 2022.
I knew about the chip thing back in 2020, it even made national news. I'm or we Yamaha fanboyz, wondering about Gene's finding. Maybe a processorship issue? That caused the (hot mess) issue. Gene stated in direct mode he was happy with the results. Never mind just read your post above..
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

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I'm or we Yamaha fanboyz, wondering about Gene's finding
Gene is holding cards with a poker face. ;)
Think everyone is just tired of what happened last and this year with HDMI boards... Another unflaterring review, about audio features this time, would be depressing, indeed. So, he is aware of the fact that he needs to craft the narrative carefully, and yet keep the integrity. Walking on a thin ice there.
 
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clone1008

clone1008

Full Audioholic
Gene is holding cards with a poker face. ;)
Think everyone is just tired of what happened last and this year with HDMI boards... Another unflaterring review, about audio features this time, would be depressing, indeed. So, he is aware of the fact that he needs to craft the narrative carefully, and yet keep the integrity. Walking on a thin ice there.
So is he on Yamaha's payroll? If so it's not an unbiased situation. If he isn't then post the results. If everyone is so worried about what someone like Gene is going to find then why don't they send them units prior to public launch? I mean seriously why would Gene think he needs to be in a position where he has to worry about unflattering results?
I guess my skepticism comes from being in similar situations in the auto industry which I know very well. I definitely know how games are played in that industry!
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

Full Audioholic
Even if you reprogramm the chip, electrical traces are the ones that can also generate noise, and this is hardware. This is why some high-end PC motherboards employ 10 and even 12-layer PCB, to reduce interfences and noise along data lanes and isolate them as much as possible.
Everything that sits before the DAC is purely digital, it can’t introduce distortion unless there is something really strange like “digital electronic noise added to the the DAC analogic output” which doesn’t make sense. It would then be noise, not distortion.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

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So is he on Yamaha's payroll? If so it's not an unbiased situation. If he isn't then post the results. If everyone is so worried about what someone like Gene is going to find then why don't they send them units prior to public launch? I mean seriously why would Gene think he needs to be in a position where he has to worry about unflattering results? I guess my skepticism comes from being in similar situations in the auto industry which I know very well. I definitely know how games are played in that industry!
It might be a mix of personal and wider industry circumstances. I will not comment on personal circumstances. It's up to him to make a call. I think he will go for integrity, publish it and sweaten the language, similarly to CX/MX-A5200 review. From a wider perspective, Gene knows that AVR mainstream industry definitely needs a breath of fresh air, positivity, reliability, boost of confidence, popularity and bigger revenue. It's been rough, from Onkyo's almost RIP to on-going troubles with HDMI 2.1 transition and trying to elbow their way into gamers' lucrative market, a new adventure...

Comparing to PC or TV industries, AVR is a small industry that grows steadily ~1.3% a year, so hardly a major breakthrough on global markets. Here is how it looks like, revenue-wise ~$2.2 billion at the moment.
Stat AVRs .JPG

By opening up the offer to console and PC segment, business leaders in AVR industry hope to accelerate the growth to 3-4% a year, perhaps even more. HDMI 2.1 transition provides a unique opportunity for this, as ports with wide video data bandwidth of 40/48 Gbps could attract more buyers that have not traditionally been interested in having an AVR placed in the middle of their PC ecosystem. This brings all sorts of video complexities that need to be addressed, so that video flows through as unmolested as possible. AVR companies have some serious job to do to convince the said market that their devices deserve the label "media and home entertainment hub". It is easier to perform the hub role with sources and TVs. It's a whole new game and level with PCs, as companies experienced in a painful way last and this year.

Breaking a direct connection PC-display with AVR is a big deal in terms of supported pass-though features, especially at 4K/120 resolution, sync features and colour space support in EDID. In PC world, DisplayPort is the king video interface and it comes in three flavours: traditional DP, DP over USB-C and Thunderbolt. AVRs do not support DisplayPort, as they rely on HDMI only and have been designing their boards in a very conservative way, meant for consumer electronics market. Consoles started to blur this line, but those are also limited to HDMI port only.

Challenges for AVRs to address in order to sell more machines to PC users:

1. For PC users, it's much more flexible with video connectivity and flexibility is expected by default. HDMI is just one of options. Almost every single monitor, motherboard and graphics cards have several different interfaces to allow users to connect whatever they want or happen to have at home. AVRs still do not have this luxury of port flexibility and are not perceived as media hub for that reason. So, there is that as the first obstacle in wider adoption among PC users.

2. In addition, video features are much better supported on DisplayPort than on HDMI. There are more combinations of screen resolutions, refresh rates, sync and colours in EDID than on HDMI. One simple symptom of this is 1440p, the most popular screen resolution in PC world. Very few AVRs support this in pass-through. In a typical AVR, it's either 1080p or 4K, which is geared towards TVs. As you know, PC monitors and laptops have greater diversity in this regard. So, AVR by default is a no-go for millions of PC users, as they do not want to compromise on video features that direct connection provides.

3. Plus, they have a myriad of other audio options, from headsets and small all-in-one multi-channel audio systems (e.g. Logitech gear), all the way to DACs from motherboards, add-in audio cards such as Sound Blaster and soundbars. There's tons of audio options for computers that compete on the market.

I hope we will finally have new video boards on AVRs by 2025, which will include DisplayPort support. It is the only way to penetrate PC market with greater success. Once people see at least two digital video interfaces, they can connect greater variery of sources and displays to AVR and treat it as truly integrating hub. It is product managers and engineers in AVR companies that need to give this a hard push and ask Qualcomm and other SoC makers to create chips that would support both interfaces. This is routinely done on PC motherboards, so it really should not be a big deal. It's not reinventing a wheel, it's modernising your own gear and getting your house in order to accomodate all sort of devices people use. It will not dramatically increase cost and it can bring greater revenues by establishing AVRs as more desirable devices in modern households.
 
AVR Enthu

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Everything that sits before the DAC is purely digital, it can’t introduce distortion unless there is something really strange like “digital electronic noise added to the the DAC analogic output” which doesn’t make sense. It would then be noise, not distortion.
True. He mentioned that "the thing was running hot". Could thermal noise influence his measurements on some channels?
 
Replicant 7

Replicant 7

Audioholic Samurai
Why would anyone want the Video to be passed though a AVR in the first place? Why, it makes no sense. Video out from source to TV or monitor, audio out from source to AVR.. what's so hard about that to understand.
 
OldAndSlowDev

OldAndSlowDev

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True. He mentioned that "the thing was running hot". Could thermal noise influence his measurements on some channels?
I really don't know :) I am just curious and I like to understand things until it's too much work for my slow brain ;)
I have no doubt about Gene review and his understanding about signal noise and signal transmission. I would be really happy if he can "explain" what his understanding is. Understanding products, how they work, is a good thing to choose the things that fit the most your use. I have stopped looking for the "best" "perfect" whatever thing I purchase. It was driving me mad because I was always not totally happy about things as soon as something wasn't "perfect". I now always think about objects as "the best compromise".
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

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Why would anyone want the Video to be passed though a AVR in the first place? Why, it makes no sense. Video out from source to TV or monitor, audio out from source to AVR.. what's so hard about that to understand.
It's not hard to understand that, but consumer electronics market has its own forces.

HDMI itself creates some limitations. Audio and video are wrapped together over HDMI. Only some more advanced sources have two HDMI outputs, one for video and another one for audio. Here, source can split video and audio, such as Blu Ray disc player. Also, few sources have additional analog outputs for 7.1 and those are aften more expensive.

Before eARC, it was impossible to bring lossless audio to AVR from any device with single HDMI output port connected to TV, such as HDMI dongles, Nvidia Shield and others. With eARC, this is now possible, but there is another trouble now. It's flaky. After 3 years of eARC in the market, we can 'proudly' say that it has been hit and miss, at best, and a source of wide frustration for many, at worst.

Also, TVs do not have anough HDMI ports. TVs used to be hubs, but AVRs took over this function once companies started to include up to 10 ports on back panel. People hooked in all possible sources. As AVRs took over this role, all sorts of video pass-through support have been introduced, including all HDR formats, even DolbyVision 4K/120 most recently.

For example, consoles have only one HDMI port. Most of people still do not have TVs with eARC. No monitor has eARC either. So, the only way to bring lossless sound is to connect console directly to AVR, which will then pass video through OUT port to TV.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
The last thing I want is a AVR to process the video signal.
That’s why you use pass through. Most AVR’s afaik going back a loooong ways, pass video signals untouched with zero degradation. You “can” use the AVR to process video signals, but can’t imagine why you’d want to.
Just makes it simpler.
 
AVR Enthu

AVR Enthu

Full Audioholic
It was driving me mad because I was always not totally happy about things as soon as something wasn't "perfect". I now always think about objects as "the best compromise".
Well done. Perfectionism is a state of mind, not a property of products.
 
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