Would someone mind updating me on the economy?

MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
I've been working like crazy, and hearing about the market crashing and such... but... where are a we at? Playing catch up the news I'm only getting bits and peices... The fed says unemployement is probably going to be up to 9% in 09, and then start a recovery in '10 and in '11 be at like 7% ... saying that 5 is normal?! That sounds like a long recession. I'm not directly hit yet, but, man, I can feel it coming soon, work is sllloowww.

Can someone make me smart on the economy? Or at least get me started in figuring out what is going on?

I'ma be at work tomorrow, but, I'll be posting at night and such.

Maybe it could be a good discussion too... try and keep the obama'shing to a minimum just because it will probably make it less interesting of a discussion.

Just anything about the economy in here is coo, be it a global perspective, or how it has affected you locally or at work. And how do we survive? What will we learn?
 
J

jamie2112

Banned
Here ya go buddy http://money.cnn.com/news/economy/ in other words the fed says is going to get worse.Its funny how the Fed is privatly owned by bankers who control the money and cripple our economy for their own profit...sorry J/K I don't know what the heck I am talking about....
 
J

jamie2112

Banned
Oh yeah I almost for got Rev Charles needs your money Sensi...he will come pick it up too..
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Sensi, I'd PM itschris, he works in the financial industry, and gives every indication he knows his stuff.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I've been working like crazy, and hearing about the market crashing and such... but... where are a we at? Playing catch up the news I'm only getting bits and peices... The fed says unemployement is probably going to be up to 9% in 09, and then start a recovery in '10 and in '11 be at like 7% ... saying that 5 is normal?! That sounds like a long recession. I'm not directly hit yet, but, man, I can feel it coming soon, work is sllloowww.

Can someone make me smart on the economy? Or at least get me started in figuring out what is going on?

I'ma be at work tomorrow, but, I'll be posting at night and such.

Maybe it could be a good discussion too... try and keep the obama'shing to a minimum just because it will probably make it less interesting of a discussion.

Just anything about the economy in here is coo, be it a global perspective, or how it has affected you locally or at work. And how do we survive? What will we learn?
Do you want the long or short version?

The short is easy. We got into huge personal and public debt and sunk the economy. We tricked ourselves into thinking we could into create real wealth by selling goods other people made for is.

Then we made a complex instrument to try and hide what we were doing. They are called derivatives. The bankers and others claim they do not understand them. Well there is a word that describes them well, its called a Ponzi scheme.

Now we have voted to borrow much more to try and find a way out of this by owing more from foreigners. Even larger borrowing is contemplated.

Now they have to sell the T-bills to finance it. They are starting to print the money, before the T-bills are sold!

The largest purchasers are the Chinese and Japanese and their economies are tanking as well. Russia has purchased a lot, which is not often talked about. Their economy has tanked and they are very mad at us right now.

These countries might very well ask for repayment of debt and not buy the T-bills. If that happens then the stimulus bill and other spending will be curtailed.

Now this is where the problem is serious. There are large number sof unemployed, and getting larger. These individuals are to a large extent dependent on unemployment assistance. The argument is that we have to provide them with a safety net, or there will be horrific scenes not seen in America before. This is true. However if the foreigners do not by the T-bills, then the only way to cut the checks is to print the money. Then we have ruinous inflation and still have the horrific scenes never before seen in America.

We are very close to check mate, and I think more and more people are realizing it. The huge difference between now and 1929 is the scale of the public and personal debt.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Do you want the long or short version?

The short is easy. We got into huge personal and public debt and sunk the economy. We tricked ourselves into thinking we could into create real wealth by selling goods other people made for is.

Then we made a complex instrument to try and hide what we were doing. They are called derivatives. The bankers and others claim they do not understand them. Well there is a word that describes them well, its called a Ponzi scheme.

Now we have voted to borrow much more to try and find a way out of this by owing more from foreigners. Even larger borrowing is contemplated.

Now they have to sell the T-bills to finance it. They are starting to print the money, before the T-bills are sold!

The largest purchasers are the Chinese and Japanese and their economies are tanking as well. Russia has purchased a lot, which is not often talked about. Their economy has tanked and they are very mad at us right now.

These countries might very well ask for repayment of debt and not buy the T-bills. If that happens then the stimulus bill and other spending will be curtailed.

Now this is where the problem is serious. There are large number sof unemployed, and getting larger. These individuals are to a large extent dependent on unemployment assistance. The argument is that we have to provide them with a safety net, or there will be horrific scenes not seen in America before. This is true. However if the foreigners do not by the T-bills, then the only way to cut the checks is to print the money. Then we have ruinous inflation and still have the horrific scenes never before seen in America.

We are very close to check mate, and I think more and more people are realizing it. The huge difference between now and 1929 is the scale of the public and personal debt.
Thanks man, that's helpful/scary. I sent some rep your way.

What exactly is a derivatives? (Ponzi scheme?)
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
Here's the economy in a nutshell, after Obama visited my State yesterday (was actualy two blocks from my house giving his speech at Dobson High School) after all was said and done here's what I got.

People who flaked on their mortgages and who have piss poor credit get awesome interest rates and cool tax benefits. While hard working honest people who paid their bills on tme and have good credit scores, got it royally in the end without the common courtesy of a reach around.

That's about it, oh yeah and we all get to pay higher taxes to bail out those who were idiots and got sub prime mortgages and houses they knew they couldn't afford.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Here's the economy in a nutshell, after Obama visited my State yesterday (was actualy two blocks from my house giving his speech at Dobson High School) after all was said and done here's what I got.

People who flaked on their mortgages and who have piss poor credit get awesome interest rates and cool tax benefits. While hard working honest people who paid their bills on tme and have good credit scores, got it royally in the end without the common courtesy of a reach around.

That's about it, oh yeah and we all get to pay higher taxes to bail out those who were idiots and got sub prime mortgages and houses they knew they couldn't afford.

Bummer. I wonder if bailing out the dumbasses will actually help the people who did pay a bit because it would perhaps keep their homes from falling in value? I'm not a homeowner, but, if I lived on the same street as a bunch of homes in foreclosure and went to sell right now it would be hard because of all those foreclosed homes for cheap. If we bail them out, maybe it wouldn't go down as much?
 
J

jamie2112

Banned
I hope the banking industry will clean up the mess they created. I was a homeowner for 7 years and I sold my home in Dec of 06. I was going to get hammered with a huge increase in my mortgage, so I sold my house and decided to go back to renting for a while. I am glad I did. There are many people I know who did not qualify for a 300,000 dollar loan but yet still got them no problem. Now they have lost their houses and some jobs as well. I think the banks should be held accountable for the fraudulent loans they helped mass produce. In no way should the banks and lenders been giving out loans they knew people could not pay back. It is creating debt and only the banks and lenders win here. All us taxpayers are paying for this huge debt we have been unwittingly subjected to. :eek:
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
Well here in AZ, the average home fell 45% in the past year, so even though my house is still "above water" (by 50,000) and my interest rate is 5.25% I still can't qualify for a lower interest rate, because even though I have great credit, getting a bank to loan me money is a no go, because the average home has fallen 45% in my neighborhood, and they think my area is too high risk to offer any loans.

Meanwhile Mr and Mrs crackwhore with lousy credit and "questionable jobs" is approved to buy a forclosed house (that is bigger and nicer and way cheaper than mine) and get 8,000 tax credit for being first time home buyers, get 4.5% interest and are allowed a bonus 7,000 tax credit on the new loan.

Meanwhile I can't sell my home to upgrade to a nicer home, because homes aren't selling and my great credit doesnt allow me qualify for any of Obamas new tax credits and lower interest rate, oh but i should be happy because his new plan means my home won't fall much more below 45% that it has already dropped.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I was afraid you would get around to asking for the long version!

First the easy question. A Ponzi scheme is the scam that Bernie Madoff has worked. He claimed he had an investment company, and sent out monthly reports of trades. It turns out he never made a single trade.

What he did was take peoples money and pay investors from the money put in by new clients. That is why Ponzi schemes are also known as Pyramid scams.

Now as long as the pool of money increases with the addition of new investors, the scheme can be kept hidden. but as soon as there is an economic turn down and the pool of new investors shrinks, then the whole scheme collapses like a pack of cards, and the investors loose their base original investments.

Now to understand derivatives, and why I and many othersw really consider them very well hidden Ponzi schemes you have to understand what has happened over a long period of time. That gets us to the long version! I will try and make it as simple as I can.

I think, I can best explain this with reference to my own observations.

The Victorians understood the difference between trade and commerce. Trade between nations, is I buy something from you, and you buy something from me. That is trade. Commerce is just crude business activity.

Now in the West after WW II standards of living rose at a tremendous pace.

At first there was real production. However this created huge demands for resources especially energy.

One of the first big landmarks in the road to ruin was in 1973 when Nixon signed the bill for the importation of foreign oil.

Now when I was a child during the 50s and sixties, we lived in a house high above the west bank of the Medway towns, on the river Medway Kent. These towns were ports and a center of manufacture.

Ships would come in and out, lots of them, on every flood and ebb tide. Ships were also built in those towns. The ships came in with all sorts of goods, lumber from Scandinavia, lamb and butter from Australia, and goods of every kind.

Those ships left with cement mixers, road building equipment, injector pumps, aircraft parts, sophisticated electronic parts from Elliot automation and cement.

As you stepped out of our house, you could here the noise of labor and the creation of wealth all along the banks, from Rainham, Gillingham, Chatham, Rochester and Strood.

Now the societies of the West wanted not only lots of goods, but a lot of social services including health care. They also through their unions negotiated high wage packages, often holding the country to ransom with strikes. Between taxation and wages, people could no longer afford their goods and high life style. So, gradually at first, we saw the introduction of goods from the Far East built with cheap labor and no social safety nets.

Gradually the noise from industry on the river grew quieter, and the ships came in on the flood tide low in the water, and left on the ebb increasingly high in the water. Between these factors and the importation of energy, the trade gaps of Western nations have ballooned.

The factories which generated the wealth are now idle and decayed.

On a trip to the UK, when the crisis really picked up speed I took a few picture. I'm sure there are the same scenes all over the Western nations.

When I was growing up this factory was a hive of activity.



This was Grays ship yard, that I knew as Lemon's Yard. It is were at the end of the eighteenth century, HMS Bellaraphon was built. She fought under Nelson at the Battle of the Nile and at Trafalgar. She took the surrender of Napoleon. Now only the pub remains, and that seemed to be failing fast.



What was once thriving industry, put to grass.



The sheds you see on the right, were ships were built for a thousand years, now a museum, owned by the English Estates.



No ships leaving on the ebb tide.



They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and to me these are.

I hope you now see the seeds of our eclipse.

So as we surrendered production, property became the major source of creation of real worth.

Now the holders of the debt and trade imbalances, have become increasingly worried about our ability to make good on the debt. So they wanted the debt backed by property. This led to the creation of the derivative that has become known as the mortgage backed securities. Many, including Warren Buffet, have warned for years that these instruments were the road to financial ruin.

So investments got wrapped in Mortgage paper, to secure their worth.

The problem is there was not enough property to wrap all this debt, so the building of a house became an instrument to create paper instead of somewhere to live.

So unscrupulous builders, bankers, realtors, and Mortgage brokers put any body with a pulse in a $250.000 plus home.

Things were so bad to the West of the Twin Cities here, that they were going to homeless shelters, and giving them mortgages for homes in Wright county. This is all in the court records now. To top it off many of those house have no prospect of getting clean water or having waste disposal. Yet there were grandiose names, like "Opportunity Drive."

So if you build something there is no need for, then what you built has no value. That is what has happened to a lot of housing. Not only that the buyer could not afford them without deceptive teaser rates.

What this boils down to is that the wealth was not there, so a lot of those derivatives really are in essence Ponzi schemes.

Not only that everything was sliced and diced. Bad paper was mixed with good, just like mixing good and rotten fruit, with the same result.

Things stated to unravel three years ago. However last summer"s big run up in energy cost brought the whole Ponzi scheme down like a pack of cards.

What will happen next I think will depend on the degree of International co operation that can be achieved.

To bring this back to audio/video, members here by buying cheap Far Eastern Goods, have put China in the drivers seat, at the rounds of world financial conferences that will be required.

One thing is certain, that coming out of this the standard of living and expectations in the Western nations, will have to decline drastically.

Any other alternatives will lead to war, but that gets us on to another topic.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
Not that I have any ill feelings about my ever increasing taxes being used to allow Mr and Mrs. Crackwhore to buy a nicer home than me in my own neighborhood because they were irresponsible and spent all their income on nose candy. :rolleyes:
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Not that I have any ill feelings about my ever increasing taxes being used to allow Mr and Mrs. Crackwhore to buy a nicer home than me in my own neighborhood because they were irresponsible and spent all their income on nose candy. :rolleyes:
I think we need to avoid simple comments and smart remarks when discussing this situation.

This could not be more serious if it tried. It is vital that every citizen and immigrant understand the roots of this crisis. They really need to educate themselves on how we got here, the situation now, and the very limited options we have to deal with it.

It is not easy to understand what has, and is happening, but it is the responsibility of everyone to try. Turning on each other will not help. It will make it worse.
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
What exactly is a derivatives? (Ponzi scheme?)
Derivatives are instruments whose value is derived from some other instrument. The simplest derivatives are puts and calls which are known as options.

A put gives you the right to sell a stock at a certain price and a call gives you the right to buy a stock at a given price. So for example, if the current price of a stock is $10 and you believe it will rise in price, you could purchase a call with a strike price of $12. If the stock price rises to $15, the call is 'in the money' and its value is the amount over the strike price ($15 - $12 in this example). Your profit would be $3 per share minus the cost of buying the option. Thus, the value of the option is 'derived' from the value of the 'underlying' (the stock itself).

But derivatives get far more complex than simple puts and calls and can have potentially thousands of counterparties. A simplistic type of example to show how counterparties are related would be something like this: I loan you money and a third person bets on whether or not you will pay me back. The third person has invested in a derivative because his instrument's value is derived from whether or not you pay back the loan. Multiply that by the thousands and with large sums of money and you can see how it quickly unwinds once people become unable to pay back their loans.

A Ponzi scheme is a scheme in which early investors are paid from new money coming in from new investors. When the new money flow stops, possibly because it is revealed that the returns are too good to be true, there is no money to continue the scheme and it all falls apart. It is named after Charles Ponzi who used a scheme of selling stamps.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
This is what happened prior to the selling of derivatives, TLS mentioned.

The housing problem (not all our problems) was rooted in a banking de-regulation bill, signed by a president, before Obama or Bush were ever elected.

It was both the banking industry and certain politicians that caused the housing collapse.
Do a little research on Barney Frank and Chris Dodd; they should both be jailed. IMO

I'll leave it to whom ever cares to look up what party was in control; when both the legislative and executive branches, began their social engineering project. It was their parties' opinion that everyone deserved a house, regardless of whether you have a job, are on welfare, are a citizen, legal aliens or illegal aliens, take welfare money or are on unemployment benefits.

Do a little detective work of your own.

Find out what president, put the Community Redevelopment Act, a Carter era law designed to encourage minority home ownership, on steroids. And in so doing, he helped create the market for the risky sub prime loans that now, lying politicians blame exclusively on predatory lenders.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
This is what happened prior to the selling of derivatives, TLS mentioned.

The housing problem (not all our problems) was rooted in a banking de-regulation bill, signed by a president, before Obama or Bush were ever elected.

It was both the banking industry and certain politicians that caused the housing collapse.
Do a little research on Barney Frank and Chris Dodd; they should both be jailed. IMO

I'll leave it to whom ever cares to look up what party was in control; when both the legislative and executive branches, began their social engineering project. It was their parties' opinion that everyone deserved a house, regardless of whether you have a job, are on welfare, are a citizen, legal aliens or illegal aliens, take welfare money or are on unemployment benefits.

Do a little detective work of your own.

Find out what president, put the Community Redevelopment Act, a Carter era law designed to encourage minority home ownership, on steroids. And in so doing, he helped create the market for the risky sub prime loans that now, lying politicians blame exclusively on predatory lenders.
I think these acts of irresponsibility greased the skids. No politician of any stripe wanted to see, or suggest the good times should end. Then knowingly or unknowingly, Faustian bargains were struck.

I believe the root cause of all this trouble is trouble is trade imbalance, personal and government debt. The rest is all consequence, and attempts to deceive ourselves from the truth. If we don't honestly face up to what has really caused this, it will certainly end badly. At the moment everybody is far too focused on consequence, and not really facing up to what powered the engines, really pushing us onto the rocks.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
First the easy question. A Ponzi scheme is the scam that Bernie Madoff has worked. He claimed he had an investment company, and sent out monthly reports of trades. It turns out he never made a single trade.

What he did was take peoples money and pay investors from the money put in by new clients. That is why Ponzi schemes are also known as Pyramid scams.

Now as long as the pool of money increases with the addition of new investors, the scheme can be kept hidden. but as soon as there is an economic turn down and the pool of new investors shrinks, then the whole scheme collapses like a pack of cards, and the investors loose their base original investments.

Now to understand derivatives, and why I and many othersw really consider them very well hidden Ponzi schemes you have to understand what has happened over a long period of time. That gets us to the long version! I will try and make it as simple as I can.

I think, I can best explain this with reference to my own observations.

The Victorians understood the difference between trade and commerce. Trade between nations, is I buy something from you, and you buy something from me. That is trade. Commerce is just crude business activity.

Now in the West after WW II standards of living rose at a tremendous pace.

At first there was real production. However this created huge demands for resources especially energy.

One of the first big landmarks in the road to ruin was in 1973 when Nixon signed the bill for the importation of foreign oil.

Now when I was a child during the 50s and sixties, we lived in a house high above the west bank of the Medway towns, on the river Medway Kent. These towns were ports and a center of manufacture.

Ships would come in and out, lots of them, on every flood and ebb tide. Ships were also built in those towns. The ships came in with all sorts of goods, lumber from Scandinavia, lamb and butter from Australia, and goods of every kind.

Those ships left with cement mixers, road building equipment, injector pumps, aircraft parts, sophisticated electronic parts from Elliot automation and cement.

As you stepped out of our house, you could here the noise of labor and the creation of wealth all along the banks, from Rainham, Gillingham, Chatham, Rochester and Strood.

Now the societies of the West wanted not only lots of goods, but a lot of social services including health care. They also through their unions negotiated high wage packages, often holding the country to ransom with strikes. Between taxation and wages, people could no longer afford their goods and high life style. So, gradually at first, we saw the introduction of goods from the Far East built with cheap labor and no social safety nets.

Gradually the noise from industry on the river grew quieter, and the ships came in on the flood tide low in the water, and left on the ebb increasingly high in the water. Between these factors and the importation of energy, the trade gaps of Western nations have ballooned.

The factories which generated the wealth are now idle and decayed.

On a trip to the UK, when the crisis really picked up speed I took a few picture. I'm sure there are the same scenes all over the Western nations.

When I was growing up this factory was a hive of activity.



This was Grays ship yard, that I knew as Lemon's Yard. It is were at the end of the eighteenth century, HMS Bellaraphon was built. She fought under Nelson at the Battle of the Nile and at Trafalgar. She took the surrender of Napoleon. Now only the pub remains, and that seemed to be failing fast.



What was once thriving industry, put to grass.



The sheds you see on the right, were ships were built for a thousand years, now a museum, owned by the English Estates.



No ships leaving on the ebb tide.



They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and to me these are.

I hope you now see the seeds of our eclipse.

So as we surrendered production, property became the major source of creation of real worth.

Now the holders of the debt and trade imbalances, have become increasingly worried about our ability to make good on the debt. So they wanted the debt backed by property. This led to the creation of the derivative that has become known as the mortgage backed securities. Many, including Warren Buffet, have warned for years that these instruments were the road to financial ruin.

So investments got wrapped in Mortgage paper, to secure their worth.

The problem is there was not enough property to wrap all this debt, so the building of a house became an instrument to create paper instead of somewhere to live.

So unscrupulous builders, bankers, realtors, and Mortgage brokers put any body with a pulse in a $250.000 plus home.

Things were so bad to the West of the Twin Cities here, that they were going to homeless shelters, and giving them mortgages for homes in Wright county. This is all in the court records now. To top it off many of those house have no prospect of getting clean water or having waste disposal. Yet there were grandiose names, like "Opportunity Drive."

So if you build something there is no need for, then what you built has no value. That is what has happened to a lot of housing. Not only that the buyer could not afford them without deceptive teaser rates.

What this boils down to is that the wealth was not there, so a lot of those derivatives really are in essence Ponzi schemes.

Not only that everything was sliced and diced. Bad paper was mixed with good, just like mixing good and rotten fruit, with the same result.

Things stated to unravel three years ago. However last summer"s big run up in energy cost brought the whole Ponzi scheme down like a pack of cards.

What will happen next I think will depend on the degree of International co operation that can be achieved.

To bring this back to audio/video, members here by buying cheap Far Eastern Goods, have put China in the drivers seat, at the rounds of world financial conferences that will be required.

One thing is certain, that coming out of this the standard of living and expectations in the Western nations, will have to decline drastically.

Any other alternatives will lead to war, but that gets us on to another topic.
Let me see if I follow:
So originally we were making stuff (to my understanding some of America's draw originally was that our labor was cheaper than Europe), then after WWII we started to increase production more with all the new factories and technology...but then when our standard of living went up we wanted more...higher wages and cheaper items... which started to bring actual production overseas. So now we had some production here, and then increasing production where labor was cheaper. We wanted high wages, really safe/clean/regulated factories here, and lots of stuff, so we moved more and more over there. To meet the production, we started to import oil to further decrease energy costs (to drive our cars, electronics, refridgerators, lights, etc.). So now we have all this stuff, and services like health care and insurance...which are important but not something you can feel and touch and assign a direct value to...

...so now we buy all this stuff overseas, and they want to know we can pay them, so we leverage our property, because we really aren't building enough to pay back for what we owe but if they can secure our property than they feel secure.

Then, whoever holds the debt (Banks and stuff?) start to worry about how they could ever repay the debt if asked, so they start offering really low rates to build new buildings and homes? So the derivative is moving the debt to mortaged homes? Now, the securities are mortgaged backed.... what does that mean? The mortgages of peoples homes are backing the debt? Who's debt? I guess that's where I'm getting lost.
 
MidnightSensi

MidnightSensi

Audioholic Samurai
Derivatives are instruments whose value is derived from some other instrument. The simplest derivatives are puts and calls which are known as options.

A put gives you the right to sell a stock at a certain price and a call gives you the right to buy a stock at a given price. So for example, if the current price of a stock is $10 and you believe it will rise in price, you could purchase a call with a strike price of $12. If the stock price rises to $15, the call is 'in the money' and its value is the amount over the strike price ($15 - $12 in this example). Your profit would be $3 per share minus the cost of buying the option. Thus, the value of the option is 'derived' from the value of the 'underlying' (the stock itself).

But derivatives get far more complex than simple puts and calls and can have potentially thousands of counterparties. A simplistic type of example to show how counterparties are related would be something like this: I loan you money and a third person bets on whether or not you will pay me back. The third person has invested in a derivative because his instrument's value is derived from whether or not you pay back the loan. Multiply that by the thousands and with large sums of money and you can see how it quickly unwinds once people become unable to pay back their loans.

A Ponzi scheme is a scheme in which early investors are paid from new money coming in from new investors. When the new money flow stops, possibly because it is revealed that the returns are too good to be true, there is no money to continue the scheme and it all falls apart. It is named after Charles Ponzi who used a scheme of selling stamps.
Ahhhh.... I think I get it more now. But how does someone/a counterparty invest in something like that? When I was even younger, I thought when you buy a stock, you are lending a company your money to use to develop new stuff, and then over time when they profit from your money their stock should go up and pay you some extra money? Is that how a stock works? So shouldn't the 3 bucks you made be part of that?

How come we can buy a stock on Monday and get a huge swing in value by Friday? Is that because of these derived values, of people shorting stocks assuming it will go down because business is bad, so basically they make money off of betting it goes down? So is buying a stock betting it goes up, and then if more people buy it you 'win'?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Let me see if I follow:
So originally we were making stuff (to my understanding some of America's draw originally was that our labor was cheaper than Europe), then after WWII we started to increase production more with all the new factories and technology...but then when our standard of living went up we wanted more...higher wages and cheaper items... which started to bring actual production overseas. So now we had some production here, and then increasing production where labor was cheaper. We wanted high wages, really safe/clean/regulated factories here, and lots of stuff, so we moved more and more over there. To meet the production, we started to import oil to further decrease energy costs (to drive our cars, electronics, refridgerators, lights, etc.). So now we have all this stuff, and services like health care and insurance...which are important but not something you can feel and touch and assign a direct value to...

...so now we buy all this stuff overseas, and they want to know we can pay them, so we leverage our property, because we really aren't building enough to pay back for what we owe but if they can secure our property than they feel secure.

Then, whoever holds the debt (Banks and stuff?) start to worry about how they could ever repay the debt if asked, so they start offering really low rates to build new buildings and homes? So the derivative is moving the debt to mortaged homes? Now, the securities are mortgaged backed.... what does that mean? The mortgages of peoples homes are backing the debt? Who's debt? I guess that's where I'm getting lost.
That's a very good question! I think the answer is no one knows. We have not had a proper accounting from the banks, and what's worse may be they can't give one. We really do need to know the indebtedness and who owes what to who. Finding this out may prove to be more difficult than unscrambling eggs. At the moment the banks don't even know which debts will be re payed and which ones won't.

We really need to have a good understanding of how these enormous trade imbalances have been covered. The government debt is easier to get a handle on.

However the fact remains, we are responsible for our personal debts. Collectively we as citizens are responsible for debt run up by government on our behalf, and the goods received not balanced by goods sold.

I think really global trade has grown at a rate that nobody can really keep a handle on. I honestly do not understand how it was all financed. But when I spoke with individuals at London's financial district at Canary Wharf last fall, they told me an awful lot of it was covered by American and European mortgage backed securities. I think that really generated the housing bubble and led to housing construction outstripping demand. That is why it seems that this crisis began in the housing sector. However I don't think it did really. Housing just became the avenue for hiding the issues.

I think that is why everyone thought that the housing problem would stay in the housing sector initially, not realizing it was a symptom of much deeper and more fundamental trouble.
 
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