Why isn't 8.1 (or 8.2) a standard?

supervij

supervij

Audioholic General
People talk about 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1. I just don't get it. Wouldn't 8.1 cover the whole area just fine? It sorta makes sense to me:

FL----FC----FR
--------------
SL----me----SR
--------------
RL----RC----RR

I understand that when a sound is directly behind us, the brain misinterprets its position and places the sound in front of us, but surely the Rear Left and Rear Right in my diagram could take a bit of that sound as well as the Rear Centre to negate that misinterpretation the brain makes.

And in regards to presence speakers, which just add ambiance, who needs 'em? Okay, sometimes you need the "dialogue lift" cos the Front Centre speaker is too low to the ground while the screen is up higher. But can't you just have all your Fronts elevated? Having elevated speakers is recommended for surrounds and rears, so why not for fronts?

So if your Front Centre speaker is elevated to where you need it, then the presence speakers are only for ambiance, yes? And if so, wouldn't there be plenty of ambiance already using eight speakers, like in this model?

Okay, 8.1 is still one extra speaker, but wouldn't it cover all the bases? Why isn't this model of 8.1 the standard? Why wouldn't it work? What makes traditional 7.1 better?

Just curious.

cheers,
supervij
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Rable Rable Rable Rable!!!

I agree! :) I think everyone is so tired from 6.1, they gave up :D

SheepStar
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
supervij said:
People talk about 9.1, 11.1, and 13.1. I just don't get it. Wouldn't 8.1 cover the whole area just fine? It sorta makes sense to me:

FL----FC----FR
--------------
SL----me----SR
--------------
RL----RC----RR

I understand that when a sound is directly behind us, the brain misinterprets its position and places the sound in front of us, but surely the Rear Left and Rear Right in my diagram could take a bit of that sound as well as the Rear Centre to negate that misinterpretation the brain makes.

And in regards to presence speakers, which just add ambiance, who needs 'em? Okay, sometimes you need the "dialogue lift" cos the Front Centre speaker is too low to the ground while the screen is up higher. But can't you just have all your Fronts elevated? Having elevated speakers is recommended for surrounds and rears, so why not for fronts?

So if your Front Centre speaker is elevated to where you need it, then the presence speakers are only for ambiance, yes? And if so, wouldn't there be plenty of ambiance already using eight speakers, like in this model?

Okay, 8.1 is still one extra speaker, but wouldn't it cover all the bases? Why isn't this model of 8.1 the standard? Why wouldn't it work? What makes traditional 7.1 better?

Just curious.

cheers,
supervij
I don't think you are correct about sound emanation from the rear is converted to coming from the front in the brain. I hear sounds from the rear as being in the rear. Rear localization may not be as accurate as to the front but I can certainly tell if it is from the rear, overhead to the rear, etc.

Why not 8.1? Not sure but how many standards will we have? Right now, 5.1 is one and the 6.1 is an option or a simple add on.
If anything, the next leap would be 10.2. Dr. Floyd Toole has shown 4 subs to be better than 1 or 2. :D
 
M

MDS

Audioholic Spartan
mtrycrafts said:
I don't think you are correct about sound emanation from the rear is converted to coming from the front in the brain. I hear sounds from the rear as being in the rear. Rear localization may not be as accurate as to the front but I can certainly tell if it is from the rear, overhead to the rear, etc.
Supervij was referring to the psychoacoustic phenomenon known as 'back to front reversal'. It's not that you can never perceive a sound coming from the rear as actually being in the rear, but rather that in some circumstances sounds that emanate from the rear are instead perceived to be coming from the front. It is one reason that some believe that the 6.1 format is fundamentally flawed. Having one single speaker exactly on-axis behind you can contribute to the reversal effect.
 
supervij

supervij

Audioholic General
mtrycrafts, what does the setup look like with 10.2? I mean, how are the speakers positioned? I guess I just can't imagine where one would put all those speakers. The square diagram I had in the first post to me seems to have all the bases covered. Where else do you need sound coming from?

5.1 is a standard, yeah. 6.1, as MDS mentioned, is a flawed standard, hence the need for 7.1. But I have heard about (theoretical) 9.1, 11.1 and 13.1 (not to mention the desire/need for two subs for any setup), and I'm having a hard time visualizing the locations of all these speakers. I'm having a harder time understanding the justification for having all of them. What more do you need from outside of those eight speakers in the square? Something from just outside that square? Seems a little extraneous to me.

cheers,
supervij
 
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racquetman

racquetman

Audioholic Chief
supervij said:
mtrycrafts, what does the setup look like with 10.2? I mean, how are the speakers positioned? I guess I just can't imagine where one would put all those speakers. The square diagram I had in the first post to me seems to have all the bases covered. Where else do you need sound coming from?

5.1 is a standard, yeah. 6.1, as MDS mentioned, is a flawed standard, hence the need for 7.1. But I have heard about (theoretical) 9.1, 11.1 and 13.1 (not to mention the desire/need for two subs for any setup), and I'm having a hard time visualizing the locations of all these speakers. I'm having a harder time understanding the justification for having all of them. What more do you need from outside of those eight speakers in the square? Something from just outside that square? Seems a little extraneous to me.

cheers,
supervij
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/articles/hccarticles/techarticles/200201NextFrontier/200201NextFrontier.php
 
supervij

supervij

Audioholic General
alandamp, thanks for that link! It was a very interesting read. The reporter indicates that it does sound better, but look at that arrangement! Who has the room for that?! My living room would be a disaster if I tried to implement anything like that, not to mention the wrath I'd endure from my girlfriend.

This kind of setup may be ideal for someone with a large, dedicated home theatre room. But most of us are using our living rooms. And having those ten speakers, plus the two subs, in our living rooms is just not practical.

But hey, maybe the 8.1 I proposed isn't practical for a lot of living rooms. I'd have a tough time making it work for mine. My 6.1 already takes up just a little bit too much space. But the 8.1 I described still seems to me to make sense.

I notice in Tom's diagram that he's got eight floor speakers, just like in the square I drew in the first post. He just added those two high speakers to trump me! :D

cheers,
supervij
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
MDS said:
Supervij was referring to the psychoacoustic phenomenon known as 'back to front reversal'. It's not that you can never perceive a sound coming from the rear as actually being in the rear, but rather that in some circumstances sounds that emanate from the rear are instead perceived to be coming from the front. It is one reason that some believe that the 6.1 format is fundamentally flawed. Having one single speaker exactly on-axis behind you can contribute to the reversal effect.

OK, so there is a kind of a dead spot in the back that does the reversing then? How about a dipole back there?
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
MDS said:
Supervij was referring to the psychoacoustic phenomenon known as 'back to front reversal'. It's not that you can never perceive a sound coming from the rear as actually being in the rear, but rather that in some circumstances sounds that emanate from the rear are instead perceived to be coming from the front. It is one reason that some believe that the 6.1 format is fundamentally flawed. Having one single speaker exactly on-axis behind you can contribute to the reversal effect.
Are you sure it's not from reflections? My room acoustics suck, and I can here my fronts behind me in stereo.

wait...I have a bose 3-2-1 Beater! :rolleyes:

SheepStar
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
alandamp said:
The magazine seems to be quoting Hollman(and in my first version of this reply, I actually believed that to be the case). But this is hard to believe. Some serious corrections are in order. I think that probably, the article author is ignorant but is pretending he knows something, and the random quotes by Hollman make it appear that the source of all information in the article is Hollman. The number of errors in the just the first part of the article were very high.

Traditional CD sampling is 44.1kHz, with a 16-bit word length, but this leads to a wave form that is severely staircased. Heard like this, CD audio would be terrible. But by using a technology called dithering, this staircase is smoothed out and the audio is cleaner and more enjoyable.
Anti-alias filters remove the 'staircase' appearance of the waveform. This 'staircase' is nothing more than the sample frequency itself. It is removed easily with modern anti-alias filters.

The digital filters which apply this dither smear the sound.
Dithering does not address[or have anything to do with] the 'staircasing'. Dither is used when encoding the analog to digital data[or when converting between bit depths] in order to increase the signal to noise ratio[thus eliminating quantization noise that would otherwise occur in low level signals in PCM digital audio].

But when you increase the sampling rate you can apply a far less severe filter, with less smear. Greater audio clarity is achieved.
It is alarming to see these erroneous conclusions made by such a noted audio expert[if this information is from Hollman], or even by a writer of an audio magazine[whom should do some fact checks before publishing]. I would challenge him to show a credible perceptual study showing greater 'clarity' by using a less 'severe' filter.


It's a good thing that most audio components that claim to deliver 24-bit dynamics can't manage it. 'A very good 20-bit system will always sound better than an inferior 24-bit one,' concludes Holman.
Actually, no analog audio electronic components, anywhere, will achieve 24 bit audio performance. So none would able to manage it. Even if they could, it would be impossible for any speaker[except for the insane set up; imagine a horn loaded line array] to actually use 24 bits. 20 bits is about the maximum achievable in the best analog audio electronics, under the best conditions, and this far exceeds the capability of nearly every audiophile speaker set-up in existance.

It's worth remembering that 24kHz is the upper limit of human hearing.
Actually, it's usually 20kHz. 24kHz may be the upper limit of some very exceptional adults.

Most of us can't hear more than 20kHz
If he is referring to adults, most of us can't hear more than 16-18Khz.
'And for 24kHz you only need to sample at 60kHz.' So would a 60kHz/20-bit sound system have been the better option for DVD-Audio?
Actually, for 24kHz you only need to sample at 48kHz. Nyquist theorem, anyone?

Holman has no doubt.
I am far from an expert on digital audio, but even I could spot these false statements from 2 miles away....

Is this magazine writer just spouting his ignorance, or was this info actually given by Hollman?

-Chris
 
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