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stau40

Audioholic Intern
I just started building my home theatre set up and so far have a Denon 3806 and Paradigm monitor 9's. I plan on buying my surrounds next weekend, but I am undecided as to what subwoofer model to buy.

I am planning on buying an SVS, and after talking to Tom he told me my two best options are the PB12-ultra/2 or a pair of PB12-plus/2. What are the benefits of having two subs compared to one other than the pair being louder? Will the bass still be tight with two subs? Will the pair hit harder? It will be used for 70% ht and 30% music.

The reason why I need a ultra or 2 plus's is the room size. The sub would be going in my basement, which is 40'*15'*7'. It is obviously concrete floors along with 2 concrete walls (40' each). It will be used for 70% ht and 30% music.

Is it a waste of money to buy two plus's considering my room?
Thanks in advance.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
2 subs offer lower extension, more SPL's, more "slam", it basically takes 1 subwoofer, improves it a bit in every area.

I think 2 PB-12Plus/2's would rock. This will give you ALL the SPL's you would need, and you would never have to upgrade. Is $ a concern? It sure doesn't seem like it :)

SheepStar
 
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stau40

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for the quick reply. I figure if I'm gonna blow over $2000 on a ultra, I might as well spend a little more to get what I'm looking for. I'm afraid if I buy a ultra, it won't be enough.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
In that size room, with concrete walls, I think I'd want the dual Plus/2 subs. The extra drivers and wattage will give you awesome bass that will fill the room. You should even get tactile bass with that kind of subwoofering. Check out the review of the Plus/2 here:

http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/loudspeakers/SVSPB12Plus2p1.php

Mark Sanfilipo called it an "Earthquake in a box". Granted his room is smaller, but with two, you'll be SET.
 
mkossler

mkossler

Audioholic
Edit: Whoopsie! Guess it helps to read and heed the post... thought we were talking about one double versus two single driver subs. D'oh! Well, I swear I had good intensions :)

-Matty

-----------------------------

Umm, sorry but I'm pretty sure that two subs will not be louder than one 2-driver sub, nor will two subs have the same SQ, if the amplifier in the 2-driver sub has the same output as the combined 2 subs. I think it's pretty well explained by IG/COF of Sound and Vision, in this thread:
Two drivers in one enclosure are not the same as "two subs". It is one sub utilizing the combined output of two drivers and a single high powered amplifier. This isn't car audio where simply cramming a bunch of drivers into the rear firewall will solve all your bass problems. Bass is an audio signal just like the midrange and the treble. Details like transient response, THD, group delay, phase, driver/enclosure alignment, tuning, frequency response, and such affect the accuracy and realism of the bass reproduction the same as those things all affect the midrange and treble.

So, don't be fooled by the archaic and short-sighted quick fixes often employed to make the neighbood rumble when building a car stereo when looking into accuracy and realism in a home subwoofer.

The PB12-Plus/2 is a single subwoofer. It produces 6dB more output than the smaller PB12-Plus which uses a single woofer identical to the Plus/2. They offer nearly identical frequency response performance, but the THD is cut by as much as 6dB by using two woofers on the Plus/2. The maximum output in increased by 6dB SPL. And the transient response is improved by having more motor mass with two drivers.

Whereas, using two PB12-Plus subwoofers will only increase the maximum SPL by 3dB over a single unit. The THD will only be cut by 3dB. The transient response will be better, but not nearly as much better as with the PB12-Plus/2.

These are all defined by the laws of physics. Hence my advice to use one better sub rather than two lesser subs if you want the best performance.



Of course, there is financial, or performance, point where this advice is not the best. If you are getting into series stereo bass with two excellent subwoofers, you wouldn't want a single larger sub and sacrafice the stereo bass. There are always exceptions to most rules of thumb.
Hope it helps.

Cheers,

Matty K.
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
Two subs would allow you to deal more effectively with room modes (depending on your room's problems), if you spend a lot of time on placement.
 
hifiman

hifiman

Audioholic
You really need to be asking this question directly to the manufacturer. Go to the SVS site to contact them with your question. I'm sure they will be very helpful to you.
 
mkossler

mkossler

Audioholic
Josuah said:
Two subs would allow you to deal more effectively with room modes (depending on your room's problems), if you spend a lot of time on placement.
Hmm, this is true, but how much work is actually involved? Here we go again, hope I'm not breaking any rules I don't know about.. again from IG/COF (sorry AH folks, I wish I knew the authorities here as well, say the word and this is the last quote/link I'll post like this):
Bass is nondirectional, and in most normal-sized rooms are merely exciting room modes. The room modes based purely on the 3 primary dimensions will be excited the same way regardless of the having 1, 2, 3, 4, or more subwoofers scattered throughout the room.

Now, in some cases in certain room the frequencies between and above those primary modes can be smoothed out if two or more subwoofers are placed perfectly to balance out propagation of the bass energy. In my experience, lots and lots of expermentation is required to get two subs to have a flatter response than one, and in nearly every case adding a second subwoofer at random actually hinders the flatness and RT60 of the room.

So basically, it is a double edged sword. Adding a second has the potential of smoothing the room response and the decay of the bass, but there is a greater likelihood the second sub will make things worse rather than make things better.
Again, cheers -

Matty K.
 
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stau40

Audioholic Intern
I have contacted Tom at SVS. He is the one that suggested an ultra, but he thinks two plus would be better considering my room. I have learned it's best to receive a second opinion when talking to someone about their product.
 
MACCA350

MACCA350

Audioholic Chief
Not sure on the prices over there, but have you looked at the Velodyne DD series, I only suggest this because you are looking at the higher end of SVS's subs and these DD's will not disappoint if your aim is depth with accuracy and unmatched configurability and integration.

cheers:)
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
That's a pretty narrow and long basement. What is your seating position? What's behind the seating area, assuming it's less than 15' from the display/front mains? Room modes are tough enough in a room such as that. I'm assuming you're adding carpeting and drywall, which should help a bit.

Colocating dual subs is tough enough, making sure not to cancel out any Hz. Most of the time, dual subs either have to be stacked, or placed on the front wall on each side of the display, near the mains. If your display is on the 15' wall, you're going to be limited to the display, main speakers, and one large SVS sub. I don't know how 2 will fit unless you're using a small display.

Have you considered adding a wall - say 20' back? It's hard to picture such a long and narrow HT room. If you do, one Plus/2 would be more than enough for that specific space.
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
Yeah, maybe I should have emboldened the "lots of time" part.

As for the Velodyne DD series subs, the trade-off there seems to be distortion versus SPL. The DD series will prevent distortion at the expense of disallowing higher SPL at lower frequencies. Whereas the SVS subs will provide that higher SPL, but distortion will rise above the standard metric of 10%. So although the Velodyne might also go down to 18Hz, it will only provide 85dB or 90dB there, even if you ask it for 100dB. The SVS sub will give you that 100dB, but with distortion.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
josuah, the velodyne DD-15/18 does 15hz +-3db (ground plane) so it will do a lot more in room
 
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stau40

Audioholic Intern
The room already has carpeting in it. The display is in the corner of the 40' wall and 15'wall. Space is limited in this corner because I already have my tv, towers, and stand in that corner with no room left (Door is next to the stand).
My only two real options for sub placement are behind the tv in the corner or along the 40' wall about 4' from the tv. The seating position is about 10' away from the tv (L couch).
I know the room is not ideal for home theatre, but thats where the 60" tv is and where we do our drinkin and playing cards at:) . I've been thinking about other places to locate the sub, but there really isnt a good option.:(
Thanks
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
mike c said:
josuah, the velodyne DD-15/18 does 15hz +-3db (ground plane) so it will do a lot more in room
Depending on the room placement and the seating location. It could have NO extension beloe 30hz if improperly setup.

SheepStar
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
stau40 said:
The room already has carpeting in it. The display is in the corner of the 40' wall and 15'wall. Space is limited in this corner because I already have my tv, towers, and stand in that corner with no room left (Door is next to the stand).
My only two real options for sub placement are behind the tv in the corner or along the 40' wall about 4' from the tv. The seating position is about 10' away from the tv (L couch).
I know the room is not ideal for home theatre, but thats where the 60" tv is and where we do our drinkin and playing cards at:) . I've been thinking about other places to locate the sub, but there really isnt a good option.:(
Thanks
EW! Get that TV out of the corner. Put in on the 15foot wall! :)

SheepStar
 
S

stau40

Audioholic Intern
15' wall has a door smack dab in the middle of the wall. Believe me I would if I could.
 
R

Ron Temple

Senior Audioholic
stau40 said:
How much is the DD15 and 18?
Lots...a great deal on the 15 is $3000. Used maybe less. Never priced the 18.
 
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