Which is more Dynamic, ACI Protege or Ascend 340SE?

[Steve42]

Anybody have any thoughts on which of these speakers would be more dynamic for HT? For sake of argument, say power to drive them to reference type levels would not be an issue. Say they were both used with a beefy 200-250W amp. And consider that they would have a fairly large room to fill, say around 4,000 cubic feet. Which could get the closest to reference type levels with the least amount of audible compression and most dynamic capability? Also, both would be using a cross-over of 80Hz and being used with a subwwofer.

Related question:
I hear that the Proteges 5.5" drivers are crossed over at about 200Hz to the midrange driver. And I would imagine because the 340SE does not have a dedicated midrange driver that their 6.5" drivers are probably crossed over somewhere around 2kHz to the tweeter. So if the dual 5.5" drivers of the Protege handle the freq. of 80Hz to 200Hz and the dual 6.5" drivers in the 340SE have to handle 80Hz to around 2kHz (assuming both are being used with a subwwofer crossed over at 80Hz) how will this effect dynamic capabilty comparitively? On the surface one would think that even though the dual 5.5" drivers are smaller, that they may actually have the capacity to be more dynamic because they do not have to cover as broad of a frequency range as the dual 6.5" drivers.

Thoughts?

 

[craigsub]

For Home theater, Both will deliver in excess of 105 dB in the room. Overall, they are going to be very close in dynamics ... The Protege's will have the edge in the midrange, while the Ascends will have the advantage in the Bass department.

Of course, for HT, you will run a subwoofer, so the bass won't be a factor.

Realistically, with a good amp, either will work very well.

 

[Steve42]

Thanks for the input Craig. While you were posting your response I edited my post to reflect using a subwoofer with a 80Hz cross-over. I also added a bit regarding the driver differences and their cross-over frequencies.

Thanks

 

[Tomorrow]

I should be receiving my Proteges shortly. I have a ~5,000 cu.ft. room to fill. While I haven't heard the Ascends, I'll be providing a report on the ACI's. It looks like I'll be upgrading a bit to run them on a Yammy RX-V2500, but I think Craig has run his on as little as a 50 wpc amp. I will be using them with an Hsu STF-3.

To be honest...my goal is to find an affordable Aerial clone. The elegance and dynamic performance of Aerials is to be much coveted. I've heard the 7B's and want to approach that rarified entertainment level again. From what I'm told (and believe), there is much in common between Aerial and ACI speakers. I'll know more soon.

Eager RJ

 

[Steve42]

Thanks RJ.
I too, have heard that the ACI's compare very well to Aerials. Someone over on the ACI forum said he compared the Proteges to some Aerial speakers and found them to be very similar.

 

[craigsub]

RJ - Having heard the Aerial LR3 x 4 and CC3B center along with the SW-12 subwoofer, totalling $14,800 with stands (5.1), and then the Essence/Emerald package with the Velodyne DD-18 (7.1) for $8200 ... I can tell you that you will be pretty happy with the Protege's.

ACI has a knack for delivering a tremendous product.

By the way, speaking of the Velodyne, I have a couple Maestro XL's on the way. Look for a comparo between the DD-18 and a single Maestro with R-Des ... figure sometime late May for things to get started.

I am not sure why ACI is leaving the old Maestro for the new XL ... but it will be interesting to find out.

 

[Steve42]

Craig,

Interesting to hear about the Maestro's and the DD-18. You still thinking about checking out a Earthquake MKV-15 sometime?

 

[craigsub]

Craig,

Interesting to hear about the Maestro's and the DD-18. You still thinking about checking out a Earthquake MKV-15 sometime?

Yes - I sent Earthquake an e-mail requesting purchase info, as we don't have a dealer near here. I never heard back.

 

[Steve42]

You might want to just call them direct. You will get through to them without problem during business hours. I had a question about their warranty before I bought one, and got right through to the manager.
If not I could PM you the contact info of an authorized dealer.

 

[craigsub]

Steve - Thanks. I will try them directly, and will keep you apprised.

 

[Tomorrow]

Look for a comparo between the DD-18 and a single Maestro with R-Des ... figure sometime late May for things to get started.

LOL, you are such a glutten for punishment. You know the dawgs are gonna be nippin' at your heals with the "Oh yeah, BUT?!!" comments.

Craig, I can't wait for the Proteges.........

 

[craigsub]

Even before the test begins, I can tell you that the DD-18, with its latest software upgrades, is absolutely the best sounding subwoofer we have.

In room bass is palpable to 14 Hz, and I mean you can FEEL it in room. It also handles every delicate bass track with ease. We were watching War of the Worlds (again) ... in the basement scene with Tim Robbins (playing a whack job, quite the stretch THERE ... lol), the background bass in all our ported subs is a "thud" ... this is bombs going off, tri-pods stomping, etc ...

With the Velodyne, the bombs are much cleaner, and everything is more visceral.

This is going to be a contest against a GREAT subwoofer (the DD-18) and the replacement for a great subwoofer (the Original Maestro) ..

All my other subs - the Axioms, Hsu, and SVS are outclassed by the DD-18.

 

[Johnd]

DD18. That's a nice sub, Craig (dyslexia?), so I'll have high expectations and I'll be one awaiting your review.

I'm partial to Paradigm servos. If you would only do a comparison with it (servo 15 v.2 or sig) some day....

 

[craigsub]

I did do a side by side with the Servo V.1 and the Maestro about 18 months ago ... And also did a side by side with a DD-15 and a Servo V.2 this winter. They were pretty much a draw, but this was in a store, and only with about a 1/2 hour of listening.

You are right, a Servo V.2 would be a pretty good test.

One thing I have learned with subs like the DD-18 - no amount of graphs in the world can explain why they are so much more articulate than their ported counterparts. You usually spend more in the SPL per $$$ in a sealed sub, but it sure is worth the $$$$.

 

[AMG_Roadster]

Yes - I sent Earthquake an e-mail requesting purchase info, as we don't have a dealer near here. I never heard back.

I had the same issue. Never got a response to my emails. When I called the person I talked to was very helpful. One of their sales managers called me back and provided a dealer's name and number to purchase from as there is no dealer in my area.

Can't wait to see another subwoofer test. Hopefully the next thread will stay on topic and not be locked down.

 

[jhan1000]

All my other subs - the Axioms, Hsu, and SVS are outclassed by the DD-18.

Craig, that's sacrilege!

I'd be interested to hear how (if any) the Maestro XL is different from their old version. Is it just cosmetic, or have they changed their drivers and/or amplifiers?

Personally, I would love to get a DD-18, however this purchase will have to wait a couple of years until we actually have grass in the backyard and furniture in the house.

 

[craigsub]

Craig, that's sacrilege!

I'd be interested to hear how (if any) the Maestro XL is different from their old version. Is it just cosmetic, or have they changed their drivers and/or amplifiers?

Personally, I would love to get a DD-18, however this purchase will have to wait a couple of years until we actually have grass in the backyard and furniture in the house.

There is definitely a new amp - and from what I have been told, the overall unit will deliver about 3 dB higher SPL than the old one.

When you consider the new Maestro/R-Des combo will be about $2600 and the DD-18 is available for about $3500 "street price", this seems a pretty fair test.

I am also anticipating a lack of problems with the next review thread. The usual suspects will likely not be interested in this, as a certain subwoofer company will not be part of the review/comparo.

 

[---k---]

How are you defining dynamics? This sounds like that AVS thread.

I can't speak for the ACI speakers. I'm sure they are great, they are also twice the price.

Anyway, I had a friend over a while back when I was demoing speakers. He brought his SPL meter which can hold values for the min and max levels. Then we played the same Mahler passage on each speaker, subtracted the min spl from the max spl, and there you get dynamics. IIRC, we were testing in room with volume ranging ~55db and 90db.

Ascend 340SE: 32db
Paradigm Studio 40: 33db
DIY MTM (judged the best of the bunch): 31db

Those measurements weren't supper accurate, the meter was being held by hand. I would say that the dynamic range was close enough in all of them that they could be considered the same. I think when people start talking about dynamic range differances with speakers of such similar size and design, they are full of crap. They might be hearing differances, but I don't think dynamic range is the correct descriptor. I think that people who talk about dynamice range are really refering to is max output capabilities before breakup occures.

My room is about 3000cu ft, and has an open stairway to the upstairs. I listen to movies at ~-10. I think my receiver and room is holding me back from approaching referance more than the speakers.

In my opinon, if you have the cash for the ACI speakers, get them. I'm sure you will be very happy. If you would like to spend a little bit less, get the Ascends. Again, I think you will be happy with them. If not, they arn't that expensive to ship back.

 

[Tomorrow]

How are you defining dynamics? This sounds like that AVS thread.

I can't speak for the ACI speakers. I'm sure they are great, they are also twice the price.

Anyway, I had a friend over a while back when I was demoing speakers. He brought his SPL meter which can hold values for the min and max levels. Then we played the same Mahler passage on each speaker, subtracted the min spl from the max spl, and there you get dynamics. IIRC, we were testing in room with volume ranging ~55db and 90db.

Ascend 340SE: 32db
Paradigm Studio 40: 33db
DIY MTM (judged the best of the bunch): 31db

Those measurements weren't supper accurate, the meter was being held by hand. I would say that the dynamic range was close enough in all of them that they could be considered the same. I think when people start talking about dynamic range differances with speakers of such similar size and design, they are full of crap. They might be hearing differances, but I don't think dynamic range is the correct descriptor. I think that people who talk about dynamice range are really refering to is max output capabilities before breakup occures.

My room is about 3000cu ft, and has an open stairway to the upstairs. I listen to movies at ~-10. I think my receiver and room is holding me back from approaching referance more than the speakers.

In my opinon, if you have the cash for the ACI speakers, get them. I'm sure you will be very happy. If you would like to spend a little bit less, get the Ascends. Again, I think you will be happy with them. If not, they arn't that expensive to ship back.

LOL, that didn't take long. Who did that song, Who Let The Dawgs Out?!

And this sounds a bit like an AVS POST. (Seems like many of the March '06 AH enrollees strolled over from that forum to try to clone it here. It's all your fault, Craig. LOL!) --k--, your passive-aggressive style and that offensive post has an AVS Stamp Of Approval all over it. I'm not sure that calling people "pieces of crap" maintains correct scientific protocol for a proven definition, or endears you much to the AH community.

Tell ya what, I'm no audiophile...you can throw speaker measurements and specs at me all day and I'll smile kindly and thank you. But the bottom line is it's what's between the ears that makes or breaks a speaker. I heard Aerials and rated them above all other speakers I've EVER heard, definitions of experience not required. Not being able to afford Aerials on a disability pension, I began a search for that Aerial-like presentation in a more affordable package. And I'm certainly not in a position to be throwing my money around willy-nilly...just because.

Now, I've never heard Ascend and Aerial mentioned in the same breath. Have you? But a couple of people who I admire and trust actually have heard Aerials and ACI's and favorably compared them. So I'm giving them a try. You're right about only one thing. If I don't like 'em, I'll send them back.

You keep doing your notsupper(sic)accuratemetermeasurements and I wish you the best in coming up with a great, demonstrable, accurate, home-measurable definition of "dynamic". I'll just listen to these speakers, if you don't mind.

 

[---k---]

Wow!

I didn't find my post to be passive-aggressive nor offensive. I guess if you did find that offensive, well, Pot meet Kettle.

And btw, you might want to find out who was making the dynamic range measurements I gave.

OP: I'm assuming you saw this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7528421&&#post7528421
Make sure you skip the crap and see Mike D. comments at the end. It may help you.

I'm done here now.