Which has better power - Denon AVR1801 or Pioneer SC-1227-K?

[allanite]

Denon AVR1801
Fully Discrete, Equal Power Five Amplifier Channels, 70 Watts Each
70 W + 70 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08 % THD)
105 W + 105 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7 % THD)

Pioneer SC-1227-K
125 W x 7 (1kHz)

It seems to me 125W is better than 105W but is it actually that the Pioneer SC-1227-K has more power than the Denon AVR1801?

 

[markw]

Without the same specs displayed for each, that's tough call. The Pio is quite shy on details while the Denon is more forthcoming. I've always respected a company that goes into depth when quoting specs as opposed to the only one that the ill-informed think about.

What I see here is that the Denon will put out 105 watts into two channels. The Pio claims 125. Sadly, both quote at 1khz which is useless for "real world" operation, but it DOES provide an impressive number to dazzle the masses.

More importantly, the Denon will put out 70 watts all day long into each of it's five channels. If you think the Pio will put out 125 watts under those same conditions, I've got a bridge to sell you. That's something that's conveniently left out. Also, please note that the PIO doesn't specify at what impedance and distortion level. The Denon does.

But, you can ret assured that the audible difference between the two will be non-existent.

 

[3db]

I hate that GD 6 ohm rating as well. Technics/Panasonic uses that a lot when they were producing AVRs.

 

[allanite]

PSB Image 5T front speaker.
After I replaced the Denon AVR1801 with the Pioneer SC-1227-K (seems to be the future shop version of Pioneer Elite SC-63), I find that the vocals and instruments start to become clearer. The PSB Image 5Ts seems to have come alive.
Not sure if it is the power or the nature of the class D amplifier.

 

[highfigh]

PSB Image 5T front speaker.
After I replaced the Denon AVR1801 with the Pioneer SC-1227-K (seems to be the future shop version of Pioneer Elite SC-63), I find that the vocals and instruments start to become clearer. The PSB Image 5Ts seems to have come alive.
Not sure if it is the power or the nature of the class D amplifier.

The Elite line is Pioneer's step-up from the regular models an they should be expected to sound better but the amplifier class is really for reducing the power supply size/weight. They have to ship these all over and that's expensive. Also, with more and more pressure to use less energy, Class D helps them to comply.

Are you playing the music at high volume levels? If so, and especially if your current receiver has a subwoofer output jack, adding a sub will make a lot more difference than buying either of these receivers because bass is what makes us think the sound has "impact", "fullness" or overall loudness. There's a difference between limited-range sound levels and broad range sound levels- not only will the music sound louder with a subwoofer, it will also remove a lot of the burden from your receiver's amplifier by not requiring it to amplify the low frequencies. It's also better because the speakers won't need to produce those frequencies and if they have small woofers, they really can't, so there's no reason to send these notes to small speakers when a sub will be there to reinforce the sound.

There's a difference between loudness and intensity-

Loudness-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness

Sound intensity-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_intensity

 

[Goliath]

What I see here is that the Denon will put out 105 watts into two channels. The Pio claims 125. Sadly, both quote at 1khz which is useless for "real world" operation, but it DOES provide an impressive number to dazzle the masses.

Bench testing as a whole is not predictive of "real world" operation so it's useless for 'real world operation'.

More importantly, the Denon will put out 70 watts all day long into each of it's five channels. If you think the Pio will put out 125 watts under those same conditions, I've got a bridge to sell you.

In what real world condition is an amplifier required to output maximum power into all channels concurrently with typical program material? The ACD test criteria is perhaps the most unrealistically pessimistic test condition for an audio amplifier ...'useless for real world operation' etc.

That's something that's conveniently left out. Also, please note that the PIO doesn't specify at what impedance and distortion level. The Denon does.

Sure, so the Pioneer may provide similar distortion vs power measurements. Even if the Denon produced numerically better results in pathological conditions, that does not necessarily translate to audible real-world differences in a home, listening to music, driving real speaker loads as people use them etc.

But, you can ret assured that the audible difference between the two will be non-existent.

Agreed, assuming both are not clipping.

 

[Goliath]

Denon AVR1801
Fully Discrete, Equal Power Five Amplifier Channels, 70 Watts Each
70 W + 70 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08 % THD)
105 W + 105 W (6 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.7 % THD)

Pioneer SC-1227-K
125 W x 7 (1kHz)

It seems to me 125W is better than 105W but is it actually that the Pioneer SC-1227-K has more power than the Denon AVR1801?

Doubling the power from 125W to 250W, in idealised conditions, would result in a 3 dB difference in maximum output.

March over to your amplifier, turn the volume up 3 dB and let me know if you think it's a major difference. Assuming the differences were accurate 125W vs 105W = less than 0.9 dB difference, again, in idealised conditions. Not worth the time even discussing.

Since you likely will not be listening at maximum power while listening to music (not pure tones, as on the bench) none of this will matter.

 

[markw]

Bench testing as a whole is not predictive of "real world" operation so it's useless for 'real world operation'.



In what real world condition is an amplifier required to output maximum power into all channels concurrently with typical program material? The ACD test criteria is perhaps the most unrealistically pessimistic test condition for an audio amplifier ...'useless for real world operation' etc.



Sure, so the Pioneer may provide similar distortion vs power measurements. Even if the Denon produced numerically better results in pathological conditions, that does not necessarily translate to audible real-world differences in a home, listening to music, driving real speaker loads as people use them etc.



Agreed, assuming both are not clipping.

Boy, you sure like to go on about nothing, don't you? I was merely pointing out that the lack of specs on one side makes a valid comparison useless. Do you disagree with that? So, why do you attack me on the "all channels driven" spec as if I invented it?

Now we can go on and on about the meaning of those specs in real life, but by not mentioning them totally invalidated one side while the other can at least claim honesty in their disclosure.

BTE, from your ignoring it, I take it you see quoting a power at 1kz as a valid spec. Interesting.

But, I'll give you credit for realizing the point I was trying to make was valid.