Where should we draw the line with cables?

[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'>This is the first site I came upon that seriously questions the worth of high buck cables, and I'm glad for that. It's nice to be able to hear the other side of the story for a change. My question is where should one draw the line with cables? I don't believe in wasting money on exotic cables, but I also don't think one should use the &quot;free patchcords&quot; and &quot;Home Depot&quot; wire ethier, at least not for higher quality systems. It may not make any sense to use cables costing close to what your components cost, but why put used tires on a Jaguar, if you know what I mean? As far as cables making hardly any difference in sound as  Audioholics points out a lot, I had my own negative experience with cables. After reading that so many of the guys in the audio mags seemed to use Kimber cable, I when out and bought some. I was using Monster cable before, and after hooking up the Kimber interconnects and cables to my NAD amp I Immediatly noticed a harsh, edgy sound. I couldn't believe my ears! I switched back and forth between the Monsters, and the Kimbers a few more times, just to make sure I wasn't hearing things, and I wasn't. I'm confident that I could tell in a blind fold test which cables were being used, it was that much different. I don't know if there was a bad synergy or if the Kimbers were defective, but I spent an enormous amount of money for nothing. Of course the stuck up hi-end dealers won't take speaker cables back once you get your measured lenths cut and stuff. (One of the reasons why they love to sell you rip off cable.) I really felt like a fool after that, and I'll never buy any exotic cable again, unless you consider what I just got today to be exotic... I just bought me a pair of Z1 Monster speaker cables for about 100 bucks, including the screw on banana plugs which were separate. (far, far cheaper than the bi-wired, top of the line Kimber cable with no connectors that I bought) I may not have noticed a change in my already great sounding system as of yet, but there really well made, they look cool, and they give me the option to change any kind of connectors I want with ease and I shouldn't ever have to buy another pair, and for that they were worth it.  

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[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'>I guess from the lack of replies I was already supposed to assume that all cables were rip offs except the very cheapest possible, and that what someone might think they hear may be false and they should only trust measurments. Quite a few people here seem to be cheapos and do-it-yourselfers. That would explain a lot. If I could or wanted to build my own cool looking and easy to use cables I wouldn't be buying any myself either. If I could build my own car that would be super cheap too. I appreciate you guys keeping people informed so they don't get ripped off, there isn't many who are doing it, but you sure take all the fun and magic away from audio sometimes. Why don't we all just go by cheap gear and forget about it, and not even have anything to discuss?  I'm not being sarcastic or anything. Audio equipment is getting cheaper and better all the time, and I may be a fool for wasting my money on stuff that doesn't really matter and holding on to a dying hobby, but at least I thought it was fun. I'm not so sure anymore. Am I fooling myself into hearing what I think I want to hear? Mabye I thought those kimber cables compared to my monsters sounded like crap because I was expecting more and was pissed that I got ripped off, and there really was no difference? I've heard $500 speakers next to $1000 speakers that sounded exactly the same to me. I don't trust myself anymore. Mabye I think that high end piece of equpiment sounded better because I paid a lot for it. Mabye you guys are right about some of the stuff you say, mabye not. Can someone tell me if anything really does matter in higher end audio?</font>

 

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Sorry if we managed to take the &quot;fun&quot; out of this hobby for you. &nbsp;Our objectives in our cable articles is to bring back sanity to the industry where measurements, common sense, and ethics seem to have gone out the door nearly two decades ago and very few audio publications really look at what is going on here. &nbsp;We don't discourage people from buying expensive cables. &nbsp;After all, if the cosmetics and product appeal makes one happy, then they should go for it. &nbsp;However, when a cable vendor markets a fallacy based on half engineering truths, and slaps on a battery or RLC network on the speaker cable, I have a BIG problem with that. &nbsp;Unfortunately there are no consumer agencies protecting consumers against this type of fraud since it flys below the radar screens of the FTC (they got bigger fish to fry!) and most consumers never actually question these claims either because:
1) they lack the knowledge of basic electronics
2) they believe all of the subjective reviews floating around
3) they just don't care
&nbsp;

That being said, I have recently measured some high end cables that actually measure well, and the companies that produced them aren't touting any snake oils. &nbsp;So there is hope after all! &nbsp;

Remember, Not all cable vendors are snake oil vendors, and not all snake oil vendors are cable vendors

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[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'>I thought the $200 or so I've spent on my wires and A/V interconnects was nothing compared to what some people spend. The TAS guys would laugh at my &quot;inferior junk&quot;. I don't believe the $200 could have gotten me any better sounding components or speakers than what I ultimately chose but it could've got me some great music/movies and a couple bottles of scotch so mabye some of you guys are right!

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[Rip Van Woofer]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...but you sure take all the fun and magic away from audio sometimes. Why don't we all just go by cheap gear and forget about it, and not even have anything to discuss?</td></tr></table>

Even though the purely electronic components have pretty well reached commodity levels of performance and even though there is little or no magic in wire, there is still plenty of fun, exploration, and mystery left in our little hobby.

After all, me and some of the others here who are old enough to remember audio before the Stereophool/Absolute Sound brand of BS engulfed everything still managed to have plenty of fun back in the day.

And you still can. Sure, buying (say) Bryston separates won't give you any genuine sonic benefits over a Pioneer reciever. But knowing that the level of engineering and build quality in the Bryston is state-of-the art and will probably last till you're in your dotage is nice. Pride of ownership and confidence in its quality and performance under even difficult speaker loads (hey, what if someday you go to an all-electrostatic 7.1 system? Could happen!) is a perfectly legitimate reason for buying big buck gear. Speakers are still far from perfect, and still highly variable. You can upgrade and A/B and experiment 'till the cows come home. And unlike wire, it will make a *real* difference.

Room acoustics is a fascinating and involving study. Learning about your room/speaker interface and trying things out can waste ...er, give endless hours of tweaky pleasure!

Multichannel is still evolving. DVD-A and SACD are still slugging it out. If the technology (and more importantly, the lawyers) permit, they will be replaced by something like an audiophile-quality iPod, with a single processor that decodes whatever you throw at it. Owning silvery plastic disks for music will seem as quaint as 78 rpm shellac records are to us. Keeping up with the bleeding edge of technology is nearly a hobby in itself!

Satellite radio has me excited, too. Not only do you get CD quality sound, but I've heard that in many ways it's a &quot;back to the future&quot; medium that's like radio was in &quot;the good old days&quot; with hosts who actually enjoy and know music and play what they think is cool, not what some suits compiled in a focus-group tested playlist. A Sirius or X-M reciever &amp; subscription is at the top of my audio to-buy list.

And after all, music (which is the point of all this, ne'est ce pas?) is a continuing source of inspiration and mystery, whether it's Bach cantatas or hip-hop.</font>

 

[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And you still can. Sure, buying (say) Bryston separates won't give you any genuine sonic benefits over a Pioneer reciever.</td></tr></table>   After thinking about it I'd have to say I highly disagree with you on that one. If all stereo components sounded the same than why don't all guitars or other musical instruments sound the same? They're all just electronics with wooden bodys right? You don't have to have electrical knowledge to know that a Fender sounds a lot different than a Gibson, or a Stradivarius vs a high school violin (it's just wood right?), and no serious musician would play some piece of crap just because it was cheap. To a lesser extent this applies to audio equipment as well. I once had a regular mass market Kenwood reciever that I replaced with a separate Carver THX amp and preamp. After hooking it up there was a noticeable and better difference in sound, I heard it even before I had a chance to sit down and really listen. I may not trust my own ears all the time, but my non-audiophile brother, who wasn't paying attention to me hooking my stuff up or expecting anything (blows your placebo/psychological theorys out of the water), also noticed the difference in sound quality. Later on, when I changed preamps to a high quality Rotel unit, the sound was noticeably different, and better again, and no amount of scientific measuring is going to tell me otherwise. I know you guys are trying to stop the insanity and I mostly agree with you on nonsense like cables and tweaks, but I wouldn't want someone to come away with the impression that components don't really matter either. I'm looking for the truth, and the truth seems to be that we can't paint everything black and white. Some subjectivism may be true, some science is true, but neither may tell the whole story. I don't know the extent of your audiophileness Mr. Van Woofer, but if you've been listening to the same amp for 30 years, as I think you stated in one of your other posts, than I'd recommend listening to something else once in a while, not that I'm knocking your amp or anything. Do you do A/B comparison tests? Have you ever done them blindfolded with a friend to help you? I've never heard Bryston, but I'd be willing to place a small wager that the Bryston stuff would indeed sound better than the mass market Pioneer, and if they didn't it would be Brystons fault and not mine. The money I'd lose would be worth it for exposing a fraud!  

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[ED27]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

gene : That being said, I have recently measured some high end cables that actually measure well, and the companies that produced them aren't touting any snake oils.  So there is hope after all!  

Remember, Not all cable vendors are snake oil vendors, and not all snake oil vendors are cable vendors

Gene....which cables have you tested?  I bought into a lot of the hype that surrounded the cable market but after doing extensive listening tests of my own, I came to the conclusion that there were no audible differences in my system.  I've tried various brands (i.e. Straightwire, Monster, MIT, DH Labs, Audioquest).  In addition, I was surprised to see very poor soldering jobs from a couple of the manufacturers.

I need to cleanup some of my cable clutter so I'm in the process of making my own cables from Canare and Belden stock.  I'm curious to see how your measurements match up to the cables I picked.</font>

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

<font color='#000000'>Good golly, Mr. Vivaldi! Didn't mean to put a bee in your bonnet!

The comparison of musical instruments and amps is, as I'm sure you'll realize, not quite valid. Not even for electric guitars. Pickups, being small microphones, are highly variable for one thing. Not to mention the varying acoustic and mechanical properties of an electric guitar's or any instrument's construction and design. I'm a musician myself, a percussionist. I know a good drum or cymbal from a bad one, believe me. On the other hand, an amp is a purely electronic device.

My belief is based on the fact that decades of research in electronics, psychoacoustics, and related disciplines have failed to find reliable evidence of audible differences in any two amps -- in fact, any two purely electronic signal paths -- that have flat frequency response across the entire audio band, low distortion, low output impedance, and low noise, (which pretty much describes every competently designed solid state amp these days) in a properly done blind test at matching levels.  (Even back in the early 70's it was pretty much a given that all good amps were pretty much alike in sound -- but not all amps back then were necessarily good!) It's the matching levels that trip us 'philes up, even when we try to a/b test. Trouble is, matching two amps to within that tiny tolerance is a tricky, time-consuming affair even in the lab with the proper equipment. Small level differences down to about 0.15dB (0.1 is preferred!) are perceptable, and the louder amp even at that small difference is percieved to be &quot;better&quot;. This phenomenon is well known and documented.

So we mere mortals are easily fooled when we plug in our shiny new amp, load a favorite disc and breathlessly press &quot;play&quot;; if it's a tad louder of course it sounds &quot;better&quot;. Even to the disinterested party in the next room. Not to mention the fact that we spent a fair chunk of change on it and are flush with the excitement of our new toy. Lots of bad mojo at work if you're trying to be unbiased!

My mantra is: people are easily fooled, even by themselves. Science is the best defense we have against this. Even if it isn't perfect!

Actually, I replaced my old amp this past year. The new(er) amp (actually, I bought it used) sounds nice. It might even have sounded better. Hey, I can't deny there's been progress since 1972!  But frankly, the main difference was that the new one is 100w/ch and the old one was only 60. So I didn't have to turn up the volume as much. Might be a tad cleaner. But my new speakers made a hell of a lot more difference*. And anyway, I'm not a hermit. I have heard a fair number of other systems besides mine! But yeah, I'm not into equipment churning. I keep stuff a long time. Drive my cars into the ground, too. I'm admittedly a cheap b******.

On the other hand, I know what live music is supposed to sound like and can still hear fine differences in sound both live and recorded. So I ain't deaf yet. My wife would beg to differ but that's just &quot;selective hearing&quot; at work. A survival adaptation of the male of the species

Of course, this finally becomes as much about world view and personal philosophy as anything, like believer vs. agnostic, vegetarian vs. omnivore, Mac vs. Windows. So, recognizing that, can we all just get along?

------------------
*Boy, talk about bias: I built them myself. I'd probably have a hard time saying they were crap unless they made crackling sounds and gave off smoke! But they are actually awfully nice even when I try to be objective. No, really. Even &quot;She Who Must Be Obeyed&quot; says so.</font>

 

[A. Vivaldi]

<font color='#000000'>You didn't put a bee in my bonnet Rip, I just like to bitch a lot! Seriously though, I just get frustrated when I have one group taking advantage of my obsessive/compulsive audio desease by trying to rip me off, and another group on the opposite end telling me that nothing but speakers and science matters. My comments were not solely directed to Mr. Van Woofer but to the group as a whole, even if it really didn't seem like it. As far as the psychological stuff brought up a lot around here, why did I feel the Kimber cables made my system sound worse than my cheaper cables as I stated in my original post when I paid much more for them? I was expecting them to sound better. Is this a reverse-psychological effect? Mabye I was kicking myself in the butt for wasting so much money on the Kimbers I made them sound bad? Who knows. One blind test I did do that involved the same amp/preamp and volume level was between my dvd and cd player. At the time I had a high quality Sony XA3-ES cd player and a second generation Toshiba dvd player. While I felt the Toshiba played dvds superbly, when I compared  redbook cds between the two units the Toshiba sounded downright awful, very thin and weak. I always brought someone into the room so they could listen and tell me what they thought as I didn't trust myself, and my cheapskate cousin agreed with me that the Toshiba sounded like crap. How could this be, if it was just crunching numbers? I was actually hoping that the Toshiba would sound the same as the Sony so that it would confirm that I wasted $600 on the unit. (I like to punish myself) I was happily wrong. To this day I'm leary of using a dvd player as my only means of audio reproduction. I currently have a Sony DVP-NC685V sacd/dvd and it sounds good, but I may have just got used to it and don't realize what I may be missing??? Do you think if someone believes they really hear a difference that may be all that matters, whether they're right or wrong? If I think something really does sound better, than it does, and that may be worth the price for some people. The only thing I have against this wonton waste of money is if one dosen't have that much money to waste, a topic that never seems to come up in the audiophile world. They would have us believe everybody is rich! Even though I'm single and childless, I've wasted lots of money and gone into debt over my audio lusts, and I don't want that to happen to any other uninformed persons. I find it strange that there isn't many opposing views to percieved or real audiophile nonsense. I'm glad there are people like you out there who seriously question these things. I found your website by typing in &quot;do audio cables really make a difference&quot;  in yahoo because deep down inside I didn't think they did (or do they?)  I also believe from personal experience that there's some truth to both subjectivism and science. I'm not so insecure as to always deny what I hear. Psychological aspects can work both ways. Mabye some of you guys don't hear what's there because you were recovering audioholics like myself and just don't want to? I've tried to convince my stepdad (who also has one of the worst mis-matched and badly placed surround speaker systems I've ever saw or heard, and couldn't convince him to change it) that certain wines taste better in certain glasses. They do indeed, but he will have none of it, but at least he finally gave up his 2 pound, half inch thick rim cut glass goblet in favor of something more sane so mabye there's hope for all of us? After all, even I realized there's much more to life than audio!

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[Rip Van Woofer]

<font color='#000000'>I feel your pain! I am of modest means myself and yes, the fact is that the audiophile hobby is largely the province of the well-to-do; hence the mags, marketing and &quot;high-end&quot; products are pitched to that demographic. Appeals to &quot;prestige&quot; (snobbery) and &quot;connoisseurship&quot; thus abound, to flatter the moneyed -- in particular, the nouveau riche -- that they possess more refined taste and senses than us working slobs and that ownership of the Van Schlockberg X-1000 is affirmation of it. Heaven forfend that we should enjoy nearly the same sonic perfection as they with our mere Yamaha recievers and the mid-line PSB speakers we scrimped and saved for!

And then there's the voodoo that underlies so much of it that drives rational people crazy.

Of course, the question naturally occurs: if these folks are rich, then they must be pretty smart to have gotten there, right? Surely an entire industry can't be built on nonsense. They (and for that matter, even we in the educated middle classes) should be smart and educated enough to see thru most pseudoscience so it can't be all bullshit, no?

Alas, it seems that the &quot;more money than brains&quot; phenomenon is quite widespread. Or at least that expertise in some areas -- even technical and scientific ones like medicine -- does not preclude abject ignorance in others. Folly does not discriminate based on credentials or class. Wealth is still often built upon agressiveness and luck as much as (or more than) brains. Common sense and critical thought are still fairly scarce commodities, and do not always correlate with education or accomplishment (I know a few PhD's who are absolute ignoramuses outside of their specialty).

If you want an informative and entertaining (often hilarious) read somewhat related to all the above, check out a book called &quot;The Natural History of the Rich&quot; by Richard Conniff.

Interesting about those Kimbers of yours, though. I inherited some Kimbers myself from a 'phile friend who thought they sounded &quot;harsh&quot;, too. Hmmm...! Only thing I can think of is that in one of the three paramaters affecting audio cabling (resistance, capacitance, and inductance), the Kimbers are out of whack in one of those areas. It is a fact that many &quot;exotic&quot; cables sometimes to more harm than good because they are seriously skewed in one or more of those areas. Some exotic cables have been known to destroy amps! So, yes, there can be audible performance differences in cables -- but with exotic cables designed by a semi-technical dilettante (of which there are many in high-end &quot;boutique&quot; makers of audio gear) it's often for the worse. Of course, some 'philes will hear it as an improvement! Maybe it makes up for the roller-coaster frequency response of their beloved single-ended triode tube amps, or the high frequency rolloff of their &quot;smooth sounding&quot; speakers or something. Then it's called &quot;synergy&quot;.

On my system the Kimbers seemed to have no effect, btw. My 'phile friend owns Apogee planar speakers that are known to be difficult loads so that might have been a factor. At any rate, I'm back to good ol' zipcord.

dang, I'm thinking too hard. Time to put on some music!</font>

 

[pam]

<font color='#000000'>Hi

It seems that this cable issue has generated a lot of reaction.

If some dealer wants to sell the cable, they must be sure of their product. So they should be able to lend you a cable for a few days.

For my part, I have bought reasonable cables (Cobalt which BTW looks quite nice) for my front speakers. For the other speakers, I will use 10 or 12 gauge cable. I am not even sure about the Banana plugs because I rarely unplug my speakers but I like the idea of Banana plugs so may be I will spend an extra 30$ because it looks neat.

Once this is done, I will start to do some testing with speaker cables and interconnects. If the cable makes it obvious that I get better sound, I will buy one after testing.

If I am happy with the new cables, I will buy it. After all, even if I am wrong, placebo is some time better than most of the chemical that are tested.

One thing I understand from reading all these discussions: Do not buy a cable without testing it because some people who are much more skilled than me are saying that it may not be worth the spending. If you feel it is better for you, who can deny?

Take care</font>

 

[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>i have been going through the above debate very carefully as i am in the process of acquring cables for my new system (cadence bookselves with roksan amp and a nad cd player). &nbsp;I am convinced i will start first with the cheaper monster cables and test and experiment my way upto more expensive ones.</font>

 

[ED27]

<font color='#000000'>I would advise not waste any time or money in Monster Cable interconnects and video cable.  I've seen too many inconsistencies in solder joints.  You can have one cable where the solder joint is fine on one end and not the other.  Then there are cables that are not acceptable at all.  If you look at the cable guide in the main part of this site, you'll know what to look for in a quality cable.

Also, you can achieve excellent results from making your own cables from Canare and Belden stock (that's what Cobalt and Better Cables do but charge way too much).  The tools can be a little pricey but are very easy to use and money better spent IMO.

For an alternative check out this site:

www.bluejeanscable.com

They have much better pricing than Cobalt or Better Cables for essentially the same cables.</font>

 

[Dan Banquer]

<font color='#000000'>Do I need to do a DIY interconnect article? and a DIY video cable article? All in favor say aye, all opposed say nay.
                     d.b.</font>

 

[ED27]

<font color='#000000'>Aye!

I'm a huge supporter of DIY projects.</font>

 

[Rip Van Woofer]

<font color='#000000'>Need? Nay. DIY anyway? Yea!

Nice thing about DIY (besides fun) is you can make them to custom lengths. Cuts down on the &quot;spaghetti jungle&quot;.

It's like the reason I tie my own flies for trout fishing. The fish seem so much bigger when I catch them on my own flies!

Hey, I'm addicted to placebos. I could quit, but what difference will it make?

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[Guest]

<font color='#000000'>I recently returned my Monster cables and interconnects and got Acoustic Research stuff instead. I saved a lot of money, they were easier to work with, and I've heard no difference in my systems performance as of yet. Thank you Audioholics, but don't try to get me to go cheaper than AR, that is where I draw the line! lol. &nbsp; &nbsp;

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[pam]

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>

Dan Banquer : <font color='#000000'>Do I need to do a DIY interconnect article? and a DIY video cable article? All in favor say aye, all opposed say nay.
                     d.b.</font>

<font color='#000000'>Aye, please do.</font>

 

[mustang_steve]

<font color='#000000'>definately.

DIY is almost always the way to go for cables.

I bet if more people made their own cables, a part of the &quot;snake-oil&quot; guys would most likely vanish.

Once you learn how a cable is made, it's easier to see it as what it is, and not some mythical object of the gods.


As far as science, and claims....as far as I care, audio is a varible frequency electrical signal...and anything electric can be measured. &nbsp;It's the speaker end that it gets all difficult to effectively measure, and will be rather subjective.</font>

 

[zumbo]

<font color='#000000'>I used to work for a cable company who made cable for cable tv. Now, I am not sure if it is the same, but I would think it is.

Every single cable produced was graded electronically. I did not work in any technical department, but I did see the grading system.

In the testing department, each cable had a different score &amp; the equipment could read where, in the strand, the cable went down in quality.

My point is, I believe you can have a bad egg in any cable. I have had a bad RCA cable that was identical to the one that was good. Both were Phoenix Gold.

I probably overpaid for my Tara Labs, but the dealer gave me a super deal on my speakers &amp; threw in a $50 sub cord! So I called them back &amp; ordered all other cables from them. The quality of the cables are top notch. I am happy!

Today!

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