Where do people come up with this idea?

Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
so recently i moved my system into a larger room which meant finding the bes placement for the sub, theres a myth floating around that you can place the subwoofer anywhere in the room because bass can not be located. well first thing i notice is no matter the crossover frequency i can obviously easily tell where the subwoofer is, another thing i noticed about this myth is that if you don't place the sub the same distance from the wall as the front speakers you get a bad phase difference that causes the sub to sound weak and held back, messing with the phase switch does no good. so really unless you keep the sub towards the middle of the front soundstage the same distance from the wall as the front speakers it sounds bad. why do people claim you can place the sub anywhere?
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
There is a reason why people go to such extremes to get there subs integrated, which means using EQ's and they are pretty important to get the blending right together with the best possible location.

Another reason that people invest in multiple subs as well.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Heck, I have 4 subs in my great room and I have spent hours running sweeps and EQ'ing them for the best possible balance.... First I start out with 1 sub and run sweeps with REW, adjust phase for best output then EQ that sub for flattest response. Add second sub into the mix, sweep for phase, then EQ. Add 3rd subs same procedure... then finally do the 4th.

Its a pretty darn good amount of work, but the results are spectacular and once its done, its all set and I forget about it.

I'll have to be revisiting all this as soon as my new boxes show up....
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I have to agree with yep, I could always seem to tell where the bass was coming from, regardless of the crossover. My knowledge of the sub's placement might have skewed my perception in some way though. I also wonder if the way the room was interacting with the subs sound created higher frequencies which gave the sub's position away too. Oh well, looks like we are just going to have to buy more subs! rats!
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
I don't know why someone told you that a sub can go anywhere. I wouldn't take to much advice from them about audio...:eek:
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
alot of people have claimed subs arent localizable (spelling?) if you keep it in the front soundstage its not too bad its hard to tell if it's left or right i mean you can but not as directly, if it leaves the front soundstage its just bad sounding, really bad. i've found you also must keep it at the same distance from the walls as speakers in order to avoid phase and cancellation issues. if i had lots of money i would use a sub for each channel and place them right at each channel. but unfortunately i dont atm. i've never had eq problems, just phase and position issues.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
I think it has a lot to do with the quality of the sub itself. An inexpensive sub is going to be a lot harder to intergrate, where with a good sub it should be a lot easier and it's still going to take some work. Alex stopped by and rearranged my sub and did the whole calibration on my system and it sounds awesome. Location is the key though.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
ive used two different subs, one was way better then the other, it was a KEF sub and i had the exact same issues described, both of the intergrate just fine when placed right though.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
so recently i moved my system into a larger room which meant finding the bes placement for the sub, theres a myth floating around that you can place the subwoofer anywhere in the room because bass can not be located. well first thing i notice is no matter the crossover frequency i can obviously easily tell where the subwoofer is, another thing i noticed about this myth is that if you don't place the sub the same distance from the wall as the front speakers you get a bad phase difference that causes the sub to sound weak and held back, messing with the phase switch does no good. so really unless you keep the sub towards the middle of the front soundstage the same distance from the wall as the front speakers it sounds bad. why do people claim you can place the sub anywhere?
That's why it's a myth- it's not true. It will take some time but moving the sub around is the only way you'll find its best location, although some sub amps have a variable phase control and that makes it a lot easier.

If you download the free version of TrueRTA, you can see when the phase cancellation increases or decreases. If you have a calibrated mic and a good sound card, it will help- if you use that RTA software, shift the frequency minimum so it shows whether the dip or peak is on the bands or just close to it. I used it to set the phase control and find the best main speaker location with really good results.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
yes a variable phase control helps alot, my receiver has a time delay control for each speaker where you set distance for the speakers, i couldn't really get it right though.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
yes a variable phase control helps alot, my receiver has a time delay control for each speaker where you set distance for the speakers, i couldn't really get it right though.
It's all trial and error but setting the delay by ear is frustrating and annoying and at best, it's just a learning experience. Seeing the changes makes it a much more efficient process. You leave the mic or computer where you'll be sitting and make the changes.
 
zhimbo

zhimbo

Audioholic General
, theres a myth floating around that you can place the subwoofer anywhere in the room because bass can not be located.
There's some truth to the idea - below a certain frequency, we can't localize the sound. This is just true, neuro-physiological fact. It can be shown in controlled conditions, and the psychophysics of why is well understood. It's a bit squishy where the transition is, but the common crossover setting around 80Hz is in the ballpark.

This is why a well integrated sub doesn't need to be centered exactly on your TV, or co-placed under/on your front speakers in a dual setup.

This is NOT the same thing as "a sub can be placed anywhere, it doesn't matter". Subs can add high frequency distortion which is localizable, a sub can interact with the room in ways that add "boominess", the sub can transmit vibrations to the cabinet it's up against, and all sorts of things happen in real-life that won't happen listening to carefully controlled sine wave sounds in an acoustically controlled room.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i've always been able to locate my sub no matter the crossover, sure it's not as precise located as the speakers, but i can certainly tell its to the left or right of my mains, but like i said not with precision therefore its not much of a big deal, but to me there is a limit, if i place the sub on a different wall then the mains i certainly know it's there and it is quite unnatural sounding. btw what exactly are the psychoacoustics behind it?
 
adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Placement is crucial to the proper balance of the sub regarding the flattest possible response, but generally- bass can't really be localized. If you can shut your eyes and tell where the sub is, its improperly configured or not working right. Most of the time, it simply means that you're running your sub too hot, or that theres a significant peak somewhere above 60hz or so.

As far as the psychoacoustic part of it... think of light, a laser is much more localized than a florescent bulb and a diffuser. Even with reflections, the smaller waves make it much easier to determine the direction of origin.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
subs not hot, and its in a very good place the is acoustically treated, where i have it now it actually sounds the best i've heard ever, the room im in is the greatest room acoustically i've seen i can walk around and have nearly the same exact bass in all spots of the room, even with that i still put bass traps in it because i had nothing better to do with 8 traps. the room is vertically trapezoid shaped which seems to make a good difference acoustically and the carpet is heavy and all the walls are braced well on the studs, you can knock anywhere and you won't hear much of a hollow sound.
 
cwall99

cwall99

Full Audioholic
Have you tried the subwoofer crawl technique? I think it's documented somewhere on here.

I just picked up a new Earthquake MkV 12, and have yet to seriously start integrating it into my system. Just screwing around with it right now, and trying to get a sound I like for both music and movies.

It's just that with a 90 pound subwoofer, you don't wanna be moving it all over the place. Earthquake, in their owner's manual, recommends (if you have the room and only one subwoofer), placing your sub immediately behind your listening position.

Great. It's just not practical in our situation.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
There's some truth to the idea - below a certain frequency, we can't localize the sound. This is just true, neuro-physiological fact. It can be shown in controlled conditions, and the psychophysics of why is well understood. It's a bit squishy where the transition is, but the common crossover setting around 80Hz is in the ballpark.

This is why a well integrated sub doesn't need to be centered exactly on your TV, or co-placed under/on your front speakers in a dual setup.

This is NOT the same thing as "a sub can be placed anywhere, it doesn't matter". Subs can add high frequency distortion which is localizable, a sub can interact with the room in ways that add "boominess", the sub can transmit vibrations to the cabinet it's up against, and all sorts of things happen in real-life that won't happen listening to carefully controlled sine wave sounds in an acoustically controlled room.

Yes. A poor quality subwoofer will in normal conditions produce harmonic distortion that are multiples of the input signals, and those multiples are often high enough frequencies that the subwoofer can be located by sound alone. The crossover setting will not change this fact. And even a good subwoofer, if overdriven, will produce such distortion, so pretty much any subwoofer can be located by the sound alone under the right conditions.

To properly test the matter, one would need to be led into the room "blind" without knowing where the subwoofer is. Probably the easiest way (though the most expensive) would involve purchasing a dozen or so subwoofers and putting them in various places in the room, but only actually using one of them at a time, with someone hooking up a different one when one is out of the room, but with wires running to all of them. But even then, one must not be able to see the actual woofers, or one can tell from sight which cone is moving on loud passages.

If one is really locating where the subwoofer is purely by sound alone, then either one has improperly placed the subwoofer (e.g., put in on something that is not solid, like a TV cabinet that vibrates, etc.), improperly set it up (e.g., set the crossover too high), it is being over-driven (so one needs a better subwoofer that can play as loud as one requires without such distortion), or it is a cheap piece of junk subwoofer. Since many people set their subwoofer level unnaturally high (to get an extra bass boost) and listen at very high volumes, they need an incredible subwoofer to have something that they cannot locate by sound alone.

Also, the THX standard of 80 Hz was selected with the idea that one would be listening to movie soundtracks, not to test tones that are limited to subwoofer frequencies. So the question is, can one locate the subwoofer by sound with actual music and movie sound, or is it only when one is playing a test tone for the subwoofer? If only the latter, then there is no real problem.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
i can't hear where it is coming from but i can FEEL where it is coming from, especially at high volumes.
 
S

STEEDA

Audiophyte
Have you tried the subwoofer crawl technique?.
LOL.... That usually does the trick for me. My sub is placed quite a ways outside of my Mains (soundstage) and it sounds Great! It's actually not directly visible while in the room and no one can tell that the bass is NOT coming from my Mains/surrounds!

I've never heard of or read claims that a sub enclosure can be placed anywhere and not have its position affect its performance. If anything, I read/hear quite the opposite. There are many threads discussing "proper" Sub Placement and how critical proper positioning can be for tight/solid bass AND seemless integration!

J-
 
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