What's this impedance matching thing anyway?

[Ski]

Hello, just joined and I am looking for answers. Oddly enough I am an electrician by day and I understand that a reduction in impedance means a increase in amps, but how does this compute when trying to create a nonstandard setup. Case in-point: I am trying to connect a ambient home speaker setup. I have one volume control to control several rooms with 1 pair of speakers per room, for a total of 6 speakers per volume control (some have less 4 and 2). I have a total of 9 volume controls through the house. The sales dude said that I needed impedance matching volume controls, but will these work when I have 1 pair of inputs and 3 pairs of outputs per controller, then how do I make the connection back at the amp. with 9 volume inputs is it as simlpe as using a wirenut and a pigtail? others suggested a speaker selector, but with my audio room located on the second floor, I don't want to have to go upstairs every time I want to listen downstairs. What I really would like is a volume controller with built in IR so I can change music from a remote. Several companies make a volume controller with built in IR, but they are not impedance matching controllers, Hmmmmmmm. Is it possible to combine the speaker outputs from the volume controller and then the inputs in a series/parallel configuration to offset the need for an impedance matching controller? My ambient audio does not require a huge amp draw as it is only for ambient music and not wall shake'n experiences. I have an ONKYO SR703(B) Reciever and I plan on using zone 1 for the theater room and zone 2 outputs for the house audio. realizing that I need an amp for this, how should I size the amp off of the reciever? I don't think I am trying to accomplish something that has never been done before, I just wish I payed a little more attention in class when they discussed weinie wire (low volt stuff) Thanks for any help or comments you have.

 

[markw]

Well, I'm not a pro but I'll try to simply explain the audio basics you're up against

Simply put, each time you add another set of speakers to an amplifiers output, you decrease the load "impedance" seen by the amplifier.

Amplifiers can only handle a minimum impedance of just so much. Generally, four ohms is pushing it. Lower than that and you risk shutting down the amp, either temporarily or permanently, depending on how lucky you are.

a handy formula you can use for determining the load on an amp is to take the product of two speakers rated impedance and divide it by the sum of the two speakers rated impedance.

(R1 * R2) or (8 * 8) or 64
-------------------------, which will result in an impedance of 4 ohms.
(R1 + R2) or (8 + 8) or 16

Now, if you add another 8 ohm speaker to this setup, you'll have this scenario.

(R1 * R2) or (4 * 8) or 32
-------------------------, which will result in an impedance of 2.6 ohms.
(R1 + R2) or (4 + 8) or 12

This shows the effect of three pairs of 8 ohm loads. I think you can do the math from here.

Now, I'm not an electrician and don't know too much about those volume controls and how many speakers you can hook up to each one but your statement about using nine volume controls gives me confidence that you can pretty much plan on a very early death to any receiver you use for the purpose. ...and I don't think it wil be covered under warranty.

I don't think you'll be able to accomplish this as cheaply as you think. You want to convert a 12' rowboat into a 120' yacht.

I'd advise you simply bite the the bullet and consult a local pro in this area. Even doctors have specialties. There's more than just running wires here. ...a LOT more.

 

[df4801]

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/learningcenter/home/multiroom_diagrams.html

look at diagram E in above.

 

[markw]

maybe I'm missing something, but...

http://www.crutchfieldadvisor.com/learningcenter/home/multiroom_diagrams.html

look at diagram E in above.

..where does it show the volume controls and the multiple speakers hooked up to them?

 

[df4801]

Maybe I am missing something, but where did I say it did?


I just pointed him in a direction for him to do more research on his own. A lot more helpful than spouting off formulas trying to make yourself look educated.

 

[markw]

Oh, I see.

Maybe I am missing something, but where did I say it did?

You give half an answer and walk away. Just like you did with the kid and his $300 system, eh?

Do you always make promises but not deliver? Or do you post bogus information on purpose to try to look like you know what you're saying? You DO know that unsubstantiated facts are ,well, useless. Impresive at first but, when followed up on and found false, turn out to be worse for ones reputatiion than having said nothing at all.

You DO know that sub is no longer available, doncha? And I'm still waiting for you to tell us where he can pick up those speakers for $50/pair. If you were refering to that post in "deals" you DO know that these tend to be time sensitive, doncha? You DO know that that price you so proudly quoted is no longer valid, doncha?

So, it looks to me like virtually everything you said in that post is bogus. Are you proud of that? 100% bogus info?

...looks to me like you left a heckuva lot of important details out here also. Did you even read the post? It doesn't appear so.

Actually, it looks to me like you're the one trying to look intelligent here. Sorry, it ain't working.

Posting to a web site is all well and good if it's germaine to the situation and you can apply it there but, if it's just pointing for the sake of pointing to something you "think" may help, but it really doesn't, then it's worthless.

You're just another poser who doesn't have the chops and tries to fake it. If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS, eh?

...I think I know what "df" stands for now.

 

[df4801]

markw, What a blowhard! LOL

as for the other post on speakers,
dayton sub at parts express, (yes, its available) since you are so big into links, here it is ... http://www.************.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-633
polk speakers at outpost, (see link in Deals section)
I assumed people know how to shop the net to find the best prices. Maybe you havent learned how yet.

as for the above poster, if sending him to a good site with lots of info on multi-room audio is bad, then ??????? I'm still scratching my head on what your gripe is on that one.

You are the type of arrogant a-holes that NJ is known for.
I can just picture you now, let me quess...
Probably late 40's, early 50's, hate your job, divorced, not many friends (at least not close ones), and you come on these sites trying to boost your self esteem by "sounding" intelligent and degrading others.

What a joke you must be!

 

[markw]

So, now you wanna get personal, eh?

markw, What a blowhard! LOL

as for the other post on speakers,
dayton sub at parts express, (yes, its available) since you are so big into links, here it is ... http://www.************.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-633
polk speakers at outpost, (see link in Deals section)
I assumed people know how to shop the net to find the best prices. Maybe you havent learned how yet.

as for the above poster, if sending him to a good site with lots of info on multi-room audio is bad, then ??????? I'm still scratching my head on what your gripe is on that one.

You are the type of arrogant a-holes that NJ is known for.
I can just picture you now, let me quess...
Probably late 40's, early 50's, hate your job, divorced, not many friends (at least not close ones), and you come on these sites trying to boost your self esteem by "sounding" intelligent and degrading others.

What a joke you must be!

maybe it is, maybe it isn't : http://www.************.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?DID=7&PartNumber=300-632

Oh, do you mean this link from the deals section? http://shop1.outpost.com/product/3292811?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Now, if the kid knew how to surf the net for good prices he wouldn't be asking here, now would he? So, this is what it takes to get you to share information? You dangle stuff in front of the kid and leave him hanging fore the particulars? Yeah, you'll do well here, DF.

Now, how about telling the guy how to wire those volume controls and speakers? You DO know how to answer that, doncha? ...or are you telling me that site tells all he needs to know?

Have fun, kid. I was playing with this stuff when you were just a wet stain on yer daddy's trousers. And ,yes, I DO know what I'm talking about. ...and my previous posts will attest to that.

As for you, well... so far, not much knowledge but lotsa attitude. You're always welcome to prove your knowledge by adding to the facts at hand by explaining something or another in greater depth, but, as you've so aptly proved, any child can post a link without having any clue to what's really going on.

Now, if you're done following me trying to put me down around I think yer mommy's calling you. Yer diapers need changing. Come back when you have some real knowledge, not just what you read on the web.

 

[jonnythan]

The 300-632 is the older, discontinued model that has been replaced by the 300-633... hence a different, higher part number.

 

[markw]

good point.

The 300-632 is the older, discontinued model that has been replaced by the 300-633... hence a different, higher part number.

The initial google turned up the discontinued one. Now, had he initially provided a link, it would have been a non-issue. ...but that would have been too much trouble.

 

[df4801]

markw,
I would like you to go back and re-read a thread I started many months ago about multi-room audio.
(you know what I am talking about)
Not only were your responses degrading, but also erroneous. Telling me how I needed an amp, speaker selectors, etc.
What a bunch of b.s.!

Thank goodness someone else pointed me in the right direction. Now I have a flawless 4 room audio system, without an amp, without a speaker selector box, without costing much and it does everything I wanted it to.
It became obvious to me then that you were a blowhard and really didnt know what you were talking about.
I quess some things dont ever change.

 

[markw]

Ah yes, you're the DF I spoke to earlier.

markw,
I would like you to go back and re-read a thread I started many months ago about multi-room audio.
(you know what I am talking about)
Not only were your responses degrading, but also erroneous. Telling me how I needed an amp, speaker selectors, etc.
What a bunch of b.s.!

Thank goodness someone else pointed me in the right direction. Now I have a flawless 4 room audio system, without an amp, without a speaker selector box, without costing much and it does everything I wanted it to.
It became obvious to me then that you were a blowhard and really didnt know what you were talking about.
I quess some things dont ever change.

Well, since you want to bludgeon me with it, I would like to re-read it too. At least be man enough to post a link to that thread so both sides can be seen. IIRC, I initially recommended you get an impedance matching speaker selector. But you choose to believe that your beloved 5 o(or 6) channel stereo mode sends identical stereo signals to each of the channels you've cleverly divided between various rooms, right?

Tell me, after listening to it for this period of time, do you still think that?

Yeah, you're a DF all right. You may be quite satisfied but if you can't tell a DSP processed signal when it's staring you in the face I doubt you're qualified to offer advice here, much less criticize those who do know the score.

I thought this guy wanted it done right. If he wants to take your advice, then offer it to him. Don't just point to a web site, kid.

Go ahead, kid, Tell him what he should do. we're waiting...

and, please, a link to that other thread so we can all see what your pouting is all about?

 

[markw]

Here ya go, DF.

Is this the post you're referring to?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16917

Or this one?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17432

Are you really proud of your showing on these threads? I have no regrets for my participation in them. ...and I'll still stick with my answers. ...and your multiple references to my divorce only amplify what a really swell guy you are.

If anything, I took too much time to try to break it down into leeetle bite sized thoughts for you to wrap your teeeny weenie widdle bwain awound, but you still couldn't comprehend what was being said. ...and, from your input here today, it's quite obvious you still don't. And, yeah, I did run out of patience with you. As these two threads (not to mention this one) will attest to, you more than deserved it. ...and deserve it here, also.

Now, if you would be so kind as to share with us how you did eventually accomplish your goals? We're all willing to share information here but I guess you're above all that, right?

So, c'mon, DF. Time for you to put up. Show us what you know. Inquiring minds want to know...

Now, grow up, get a life and quit being a hemorrhoid.

 

[df4801]

Some of my favorite markw quotes from that thread,

mark said:
"To put it in a simple English as possible, yes, you DO need that switchbox I mentioned in the second post of your last thread."

actually mark, no I DO NOT.

mark said:
"If you didn't understand the explanation I gave you in my first post in that thread, then perhaps this project is beyond you. "

No, it was obviously just beyond those whose help I sought

mark said:
"Now, if you would be so kind as to share with us how you did eventually accomplish your goals? We're all willing to share information here but I guess you're above all that, right?"

Well mark, it was actually quite easy once someone who knew what they were talking about decided to help me.

Take a stereo receiver, (HK 3480), hook it into a connecting block, then run the wires to 4 impedance matching volume controls that each control a pair of speakers.
There you go, exactly what I asked for. A 4 room audio system for a single source with each room independantly controlled. Each pair of Klipsch speakers has enough power that I cant even turn it up past 1/3 volume without it being too loud. You could probably run 8 rooms with this simple setup.

And all for under $1K!

Now wasnt that easy mark?

Maybe you should look into the educational area on Crutchfield's website. They have all kind of info like this for newbies. You would be in a better position to help some other members if you knew the basics first.

 

[markw]

Wow. A connecting block and volume controls. good thinking

And all this from a guy who didn't want to invest anything in the system, even a measley $40 switchbox when he was crying for a cheap way to do this. Nothing like changing your story midstream. Reread those posts. Are you proud of yourself for lying your way out of this?

Those "connection box and impedance matching volume controls" does essentially the same thing as the switchbox, dumbarse. Someone just got it through your thick skull that you were gonna have to spend some bucks, which, as these reposts show, you were either unwilling or unable to do. I guess your wife finally broke down and let you spend some money after all.

Also, these reposts show that you had no clue about impedance matching and that, my pompus friend, was plainly laid out so that even a moron could understand it. ...but not you.

Now you can tell this guy how to wire his system, right? Lemme know what you come up with for his remote control situation.

Go ahead. He's waiting...

 

[df4801]

If you would read my posts before, I said, "Hoping to spend under $300-350 on the receiver", and "I want an easy and economical way to do this myself.
What didnt you understand about "easy and economical"?

Where do you get that I didnt want to invest anything?
You making things up again?
$300-350 just for the receiver should have been a clue to you what I wanted to spend.

And if you dont think that under $1K is cheap and economical for what I did (receiver, 8 speakers, 4 vol. controls, and a connecting block), then I quess I feel bad for you and your financial situation. I thought this was going to cost much more. By the way, the connecting block was more expensive than the stupid speaker selector that you recommended. I'll let you go to crutchfield's site to read about the differences.

Where in all of your so called help to me did you even mention such an "easy and economical way" to do what I ended up doing? You didnt because you didnt even have a clue!
In the future, it would be more helpful if you just responded, "I am really not sure", or better yet, just dont respond at all and save audioholics some web space.

Being from NJ (sorry about that by the way), it is likely you are a flaming liberal. So as Bill O'Reilly tells the lefties, I'll let you have the last word.

 

[racquetman]

Well, this has been a fun thread so far. A little entertainment for the masses. Unfortunately not much is being accomplished as far as the thread is concerned.

Obviously you guys don't like each other very much. However, hijacking the thread and trying to make each other look bad isn't accomplishing much.

df4801, markw just tried to help ski understand what he was up against, and you went ballistic on him. As markw said, you didn't offer any useful information on the subject, you just went on a personal rampage against him. If you have personal issues with markw, just send him a p.m. and go at it that way. You're just making yourself look bad by hijacking a thread to rip on someone.

Anyway, that's my take on things. If you think I'm an idiot also, df4801, then I guess commence ripping on me as well.

 

[df4801]

alan,
No I dont think you are an idiot.
But you obviously didnt read the posts in order to see who went ballistic on who first.
I thought the link I posted for ski might be of assistance.
Maybe it wasnt, but I'll let ski decide for himself.

Is your post helpful to ski?

 

[AVRat]

Welcome Ski,
Wow, my head aches trying to figure out what you are proposing. If you could break it down a little more it might be less confusing. Do you have a budget in mind, the equipment list will not be cheap.
It seems a multichannel amp or multi-amps would be preferred in your situation. Niles, Xantech, and Speakercraft offer VCs with IM/IR.
Smarthome.com and parts express.com are also good places to look for gear.