Whats so important about a flat response anyhow?

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cameron paterson

Audioholic Chief
Everyone talks about a flat frequency response with a DSP.... Every room is different there is no way to get a flat response. Why even bother Its going to sound a certain way in your room regardless. Just let audyssey do its thing and forget it! Am I wrong here? I do understand the use of a DSP for a subwoofer if its sealed to get it to dig deeper.
 
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Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
You’re oversimplifying things, and coming to the wrong conclusion. The literature from automated software makers, such as Audyssey, makes it seem like it they can make any speaker sound wonderful at the push of a button. It’s the audio equivalent of making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear – making Madonna sound like Lady Gaga. No software can do that.

Although there are plenty of good sounding speakers, there are probably more that generate distortion or harsh sounding resonances – essentially unwanted noise. They are poorly designed or built, and no amount of electronic equalization can correct that. The sources of noise must be eliminated or minimized by proper speaker design.

The goal is to make a speaker with a flat frequency response, low distortion, with little or no noise or resonance. This sound should also be as widely dispersed as possible. Flat frequency response should be heard both while directly in front of the speaker (on-axis) and while off at a fairly wide angle (off-axis). Widely dispersed sound is responsible for generating convincing sounding images of musicians. All of this results only from good speaker design. No software can correct for poor speaker design.

Assuming we start with good sounding loudspeakers, the sounds we hear are a complex combination of sound coming directly from the speaker and sounds that reflect off of floor, ceiling and walls. The behavior of these direct and reflected sound waves varies widely depending on the speaker’s and listener’s location in the room. The direct and reflected waves can add together if they are in-phase with each other, or cancel each other out when out-of-phase. This behavior also varies widely depending on a sound’s wavelength. At some wavelengths direct and reflected sounds can arrive in-phase at a listener, and at other wavelengths they can arrive out-of-phase. This isn’t so simple that a computer algorithm can sort it all out.

Most methods of electronic equalization that I've heard can improve on-axis sound, but at the expense of the off-axis sound. With speakers that have both on-axis and widely dispersed flat frequency response, I’ve noticed that Audyssey tends to “suck the life out of their sound”.

Automated software, such as Audyssey, can do a decent job with bass management and general set up a system of surround sound speakers directly from test signals and input from microphones. This shows some promise. But when it comes to equalizing a speaker’s room responses across the full audio spectrum without stomping on off-axis responses, those results have been mixed so far. With some rooms, some speakers, and some listening preferences room EQ can work to some people's satisfaction, but with other speakers, rooms, and listener preferences, it works poorly. I think of automated room EQ, at best, as a work in progress.
 
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cameron paterson

Audioholic Chief
Thanks for the good read. I really just want to learn. I didn't realize there was so much too it. Sorry about posting so many questions.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for the good read. I really just want to learn. I didn't realize there was so much too it. Sorry about posting so many questions.
It was a good question, and I thought it deserved (what I hope) is a good answer.

Don't apologize for asking questions. The only bad question is the one you want to ask but don't :).
 
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MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Flat response is a notion that works perfectly for the marketers and lets them off the hook. "How could it be our speakers that measure perfectly!" They also work perfectly in anechoic chambers, which is about the complete opposite in all but dedicated listening/theater rooms, and an era that had more practical sized/shape rooms.

Do I agree with speakers with a flat response? Mostly yes. But not entirely until our music sources quality matches it. The room and such I can deal with and I am not going to waste any energy trying to correct a crappy acoustic space with speakers, EQ and room treatments.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Flat response is a notion that works perfectly for the marketers and lets them off the hook. "How could it be our speakers that measure perfectly!" They also work perfectly in anechoic chambers, which is about the complete opposite in all but dedicated listening/theater rooms, and an era that had more practical sized/shape rooms.

Do I agree with speakers with a flat response? Mostly yes. But not entirely until our music sources quality matches it. The room and such I can deal with and I am not going to waste any energy trying to correct a crappy acoustic space with speakers, EQ and room treatments.
I agree that the marketing departments need to learn to write what's true rather than what they want to sell, but the last part is just a case of giving up and not bothering to make the sound better when it can be done as easily as moving some furniture a few inches. You might be surprised by the positive changes that can come from putting a book case in a spot that causes problems. If you have decided that the system isn't important, then it's hard to disagree but if sound is something that will need to be better or even great, making the room work IS important and worth the effort.

Life is too short for bad audio. If a bad room is going to be allowed to damage the sound, there's absolutely no point in buying good equipment, other than any possible improvement in reliability.
 
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cameron paterson

Audioholic Chief
Do you think this tile ceiling I have is bad for sound? There is nothing above them just the upstairs floor. No insulation or anything. The walls are particle board...
 

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MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I agree that the marketing departments need to learn to write what's true rather than what they want to sell, but the last part is just a case of giving up and not bothering to make the sound better when it can be done as easily as moving some furniture a few inches. You might be surprised by the positive changes that can come from putting a book case in a spot that causes problems. If you have decided that the system isn't important, then it's hard to disagree but if sound is something that will need to be better or even great, making the room work IS important and worth the effort.

Life is too short for bad audio. If a bad room is going to be allowed to damage the sound, there's absolutely no point in buying good equipment, other than any possible improvement in reliability.
In other words, before spending $50k on room treatments, $20k on speakers and subs, I'd build a more suitable room or remodel an existing one. When I bought my home, acoustically friendly spaces were a consideration. If I built a home, it would definitely be one of the first. These days, most people have better acoustic spaces by way of an enormous walk-in closet than anywhere else in their home.

I didn't mean so much in "giving up". I meant more along the lines of not being afraid to add some fluffy furniture to the room instead of the skinny/shiny artsy stuff that is trendy these days.

Room for 10 people, with furnishing for 3.5, is just bass-ackward.
 
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MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Do you think this tile ceiling I have is bad for sound? There is nothing above them just the upstairs floor. No insulation or anything. The walls are particle board...
Actually, it's not bad, but insulation would be even better. They actually call that an "acoustic" ceiling and is actually used for sound control in large commercial spaces. Especially where a lot of the mechanicals are stashed above it, like they are in many basements. I mean, can you hear your upstairs plumbing or air ducts through the ceiling?
 
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cameron paterson

Audioholic Chief
So if I ran insulation on top of the tiles it would sound better? Would poly fill work? Would poly fill be cheaper? No cant hear air ducts or plumbing
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Actually, it's not bad, but insulation would be even better. They actually call that an "acoustic" ceiling and is actually used for sound control in large commercial spaces. Especially where a lot of the mechanicals are stashed above it, like they are in many basements. I mean, can you hear your upstairs plumbing or air ducts through the ceiling?
For controlling ambient sound and speaking, but definitely not for loud music, sound effects and dialog- that stuff is useless above 85dB for mid-range and it does nothing for bass unless it's thicker, heavier and possibly backed up by fiberglass batts.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
So if I ran insulation on top of the tiles it would sound better? Would poly fill work? Would poly fill be cheaper? No cant hear air ducts or plumbing
You don't want to use poly-fill. It's flammable and the smoke is noxious. Think like a fire- what materials won't burn?
 
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MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
For controlling ambient sound and speaking, but definitely not for loud music, sound effects and dialog- that stuff is useless above 85dB for mid-range and it does nothing for bass unless it's thicker, heavier and possibly backed up by fiberglass batts.
That's why I said, "not bad" and certainly better than exposed floor joists and mechanicals. You would notice an improvement with the addition of the grid ceiling. Is also why I said; "insulation would be even better." Just have to make sure the ceiling was installed professionally and there are enough suspension wires. I used to install those ceilings for a living, along with metal framing, insulation and drywall. I spent a year installing sound (really horrible stuff) blankets on commercial buildings such as hospitals. I actually worked for a company called "Sound Control" installing drywall and resilient (R-channel) channel for sound proofing.
 
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cameron paterson

Audioholic Chief
So what should I put up there? Regular insulation? The kind with one side paper the other side insulation? And just lay it right on the tiles?
 
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cameron paterson

Audioholic Chief
Thanks for the link! Shouldn't be too hard. First i'm gonna paint the tiles a matte black for the projector before I add insulation.
 
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