What to buy, pre-amp or integrated amp?

[DelsFan]

Hey guys! I've been into two-channel for twenty or so years and have some older stuff I'm thinking about upgrading. Right now I am using, with some success:

Linn Genki CD player (newish, really good)
Transparent Audio interconnects
Quad 405II amplifier, 100 wpc into 8 ohms (late 1980's)
Kimber 8TC speaker wire (newish)
Thiel CS2 speakers (late 1980's) 4 ohms, 87db sensitivity

I'm currently running the CD player directly to the amp, using the variable output of the CD player. I know there are better (newer technology) speakers than the three generations old Thiel speakers I have, but they are still good speakers. If I go to efficient (expensive) bookshelf speakers then I'll want a subwoofer - a pain for two-channel audio - so I'm keeping the Thiels, for now. On a loudness scale of 1-10 I probably only listen at 6 at the most (just loud enough to be told to turn it down if the spouse is around). I listen to some old rock and roll (Kansas, YES, Go-Go's, Queen) but mostly softer stuff (Diana Krall, Norah Jones, Madeleine Peyroux, Van Morrison, some classical).

My question:
I've been considering scrapping the Quad amplifier and getting a good (great) tube integrated amp - currently heading the list is the Cary SLI-80, 80wpc into 8 ohms, 40wpc in triode mode. But I'm worried it won't handle the bottom end so well on the Thiels. [And I know it wouldn't play the Thiels at high volume, but really loud is not of import to me...]
The other option is to get a (really) good tube preamp (Conrad Johnson or Cary) and just insert it into my present system. This option would give me a little more (solid state) power than that provided by the Cary tube integrated (by keeping the Quad in the loop) and I should still hear the opening up of the soundstage (amongst other things) by adding the tube preamp.

Budget for tube integrated or tube preamp is between $1500 and $2000, used.

Your thoughts?

 

[Seth=L]

Yes, cut back on cable costs by getting Bluejeans cables or maybe monoprice.

 

[pearsall001]

You have some pretty nice gear there. Exactly what don't you like about the sound? The Quad is a classic (if it ain't broke don't fix it) the Linn fits the bill nicely, Transparent cables are an excellent cable at down to earth prices, the Kimber 8TC are also excellent cables. It looks like the only thing left are your Thiel CS2's. The best bang for the buck when you get into the upgrade mode is to look into new speakers. Not that yours are a slouch in that department. At least auditioning speakers can be a whole lot of fun & can be the ticket you're looking for to breath some new life into your system. Decisions, decisions.

 

[Seth=L]

Hmm, what kind of music are you listening to on your Thiels?

 

[DelsFan]

"Hmm, what kind of music are you listening to on your Thiels?"

Mostly nice old people's music. (Diana Krall, Norah Jones, Madeleine Peyroux, Van Morrison, some classical).
A little country, anything recorded well. Lots of vocal and instrumental music.


You have some pretty nice gear there. Exactly what don't you like about the sound?

While what I am using now provides pretty good music, I believe there are some inherent deficiencies in going directly from a CD player to a power amp. (Right now there is no preamp processing the signal in my setup.) Of course when I say deficiencies I'm speaking in the high end sense of listening - what I have now sounds better than anyone else I know with an a/v receiver, regardless of its price.

I'm told adding a pre-amp will do something good (I forget what though); but I know adding a tube preamp or tube integrated will be the bomb for vocals and soundstaging... Tubes are the way to go for delicacy and "air", nothing sounds like them - the only problem is inefficient speakers at high volumes and I'm not too worried about high volumes. And bass suckout if your tube amp doesn't have the horsepower to power your speakers.

I'm leaning towards getting the tube preamp (requiring another set of interconnects) as I know the Quad amp will power the speakers just fine.

But, I'll be glad to hear any of your opinions.

 

[Nick250]

I'm told adding a pre-amp will do something good (I forget what though); but I know adding a tube preamp or tube integrated will be the bomb for vocals and soundstaging... Tubes are the way to go for delicacy and "air", nothing sounds like them - the only problem is inefficient speakers at high volumes and I'm not too worried about high volumes. And bass suckout if your tube amp doesn't have the horsepower to power your speakers.

I'm leaning towards getting the tube preamp (requiring another set of interconnects) as I know the Quad amp will power the speakers just fine.

But, I'll be glad to hear any of your opinions.

The only opinion that matters is yours after you have a listen in your setup at home. There is no other way to tell. At the moment you seem to have a pretty strong bias to like the change. Try to keep an open mind on your purposed changes.

Nick

 

[DelsFan]

Well, here's the poop.

I've loved tubes for years, and my wife won't even go listen with me at the stores any more ("you know they sound good, I know they sound good, what's the point?"). So I know I want tubes, it's just whether to get the preamp to go with my 100wpc (old) solid state Quad or get a (up to date) tube integrated and worry that I'll loose bass response.

Also, I'm moving to Belgium in three weeks, for three years, so I either jump now or... tough luck. Stereo stuff is pretty expensive in Europe so now would be the sensible time for me to upgrade.

And yeah, I'll have to convert the unit to 220v but on many units the changeover is dead simple.

Maybe I'll just purchase the first good deal I see and live with whatever that is!

 

[zildjian]

You might want to call up or email the guys at Thiel and talk to them about tube amplifiers powering your specific speaker model, even though that model is long out of production, they should be able to tell you about it's performance w/ tube amplifiers, somebody there has to have made that combo at some point, might be worth a 10 minute try.
Gary Dayton is the tech guy there in Lexington, I've talked to him a few times, nice guy, email him or call at service@thielaudio.com or 859-254-9427.

 

[Ampdog]

DelsFan,

About tube sound ....mmmmmmmm Are you talking about the sound of a specific amplifier (system) you have listened to, or a general conviction?

The reason for my question is that as an EE for 50 years, having done both tube and semiconductor designs, I am not in agreement with the general views about differences there. You have to be careful of reported experiences however enthusiastic, and keep in mind that hearing is subjective.

Having said that and reading that you are quite enthusiastic about tube amplification, then be happy and go that way. I am not clued up re the commercial market scene, but there can be some quite mediocre products out there both tube and semiconductor wise. You have a good amplifier as said by others.

About your original question: There should be no difference between separate or integrated pre/power amplifiers, again when properly designed. The difference is largely in the appearance! With tubes though it is cumbersome to mount a heavy integrated unit where you can reach the knobs. For that reason the (heavy) power amplifier is often separate and cable-connected to the pre-amp.

I have possibly not helped to solve your problem - only that I hate it when unsuspecting folks are influenced by what often contains a large element of urband legend. But as said, if you simply fancy tubes more, that can be sufficient reason - it is your money!

 

[indcrimdefense]

i recently heard a cary sli80 integrated with my speakers (sig 8) at the dealer, and the treble/mid's were lovely, but there was a noticeable lack of body & bass compared to my cary 500MB amps. from talking to another dealer who i trust, in his opinion the sli80 is the worst in cary's tube amp or integrated line, at least when compared to their tube monoblocks.

the best tube pre-amps i have heard within close to your price range for used are the cary slp 98 & the mac 2200?, unsure of the exact model of the mac. hope it helps.

 

[fmw]

I'm a recovering audiophile. I sold the expensive (Audio Research) tube stuff years ago and listen on what most audiophiles would call Mid-Fi equipment. I'm happy as a clam. I finally decided that it was the music that really mattered, not so much how my equipment sounded. Also, I thought the high end audio industry had gone off the deep end when people started "hearing" power cords and little wooden discs placed on the components. Subjective flights of fancy overtook common sense.

I've been at audio for while like you have (over 50 years for me.) I remember upgrading from mono to stereo. In my own experience what matters most is room acoustics and speakers are in second place with analog vinyl playback in third place. Everything else for me is trivial for the most part.

This just leads up to my recommendation. Keep what you have. It is good quality equipment. Changing something other than room acoustics or speakers might make you feel better but it isn't likely to produce a meaningful difference in sound. If you are looking to update to new digital technologies such as home theater or SACD or something of that nature then some new equipment would be called for. If something breaks then replace it. The constant drive to upgrade that infects audiophiles is basically a senseless (and expensive) thing. Been there done that. Good listening.