What Should I do to Improve my Sound? Amplification Questions!

N

Nanoprobed

Audiophyte
Hey everyone hows it going?

So this is my system and with my current set-up my main speakers are not being used to what I believe could be their full potential. Here's the thing, I've already sunken a lot of money into my system over the years and with my new plasma I just bought, I'm pretty tapped and cannot afford anything too expensive right now.

My Setup: (Not Bi-Wired)
Dahlquist QX-10's towers 150W RMS (250W Peak)
Dahlquist QX60C Centre
Dahlquist QX-5s Rears
Dahlquist 15" powered Sub
HK AVR-520
Panasonic TCP54V10 54" Plasma
PS3 /HD Box etc.

I bought the Dahlquists a few years ago because they were the best speakers I could afford! They actually are pretty damn good speakers IMO but with my setup are being wasted. I have a pair of smaller Dahlquist bookshelfs in my other room running off an HK AVR-230 and I get almost the same bass from them as I do from my QX-10s with this setup.

What should I do? I don't know anything what the external amplification options there are out there these days. Is there any good options under $400-500 Cdn that A. will really bring my main speakers alive, and more importantly B. Not detract from the sound? I like my speakers bright, clear and loud.


Think it's worth Bi-Wiring them?


Thanks for listening guys.


Jon
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
That missing bass may well be a room issue, not an amplification issue. Take a walk around your room with some bass heavy material playing. Is the missing base there in some spots, but not others? If this is the case, play with speaker placement and room treatments.

If its just missing, it could be that your speakers are not as capable as you thought at the bottom end. In that case, I would look at a sub. Actually, a sub could also help you with bass suck out [room issues] by giving you more flexibility in the placement of your bass sound source.

If, on the other hand, you get noticeable distortion when you crank your system, only then do you have an amplification/power issue.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
The best and most inexpensive thing anyone can do to improve the sound of any system is room acoustics. Simply hangting acoustic panels will do the most to tame high frequencies, tame bloating of bass and give you the best sound you ever heard. No equipment upgrade will do more than simply treating the room that the gear is in.

Once this simple step is done, you may realize that you don;t need any new gear.
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
The single most important upgrade I made to my system a few years back was adding separate amplification. I never knew what I was missing until I added a 205wpc Parasound 1500A 2 channel amp to my then 15 year old Polk RTA-8T speakers.

At the time I got the amp because I was considering upgrading my speakers. I had an increase in bass, clarity in the instruments, & vocals. Just a major improvement across the board. Needless to say, the speaker upgrade went on indefinite hold.

I now have a 5 channel 405wpc Sunfire amp on all of my speakers & it sounds terrific! And NO that is not too much power. The speakers will only take what they need to operate to their full potential. And I don't have to worry about damage since I never even come close to pushing them to reference levels, which would damage my ears in my livingroom.

All speakers, including the rears sound better when they are powered to their full potential. I always recommend getting at least 200wpc amplification because this amount is usually enough that everyone hears a clear & distinct improvement. An amp with this amount will also drive your current & future speakers with ease. You can keep it through all other upgrades to your system.

Check out Outlaw Audio & Emotiva for new amps at good prices. Also check out Audiogon for Rotel, Sunfire, Adcom, Nad, B & K, Parasound amps.

Just take your time & save up money so that once you have it you can get what you truly want. Don't just buy something to make do, because you will end up being disappointed & be wishing you hadv'e waited. No need to spend money twice.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1260054515&/Rotel-RB-993-3-channel-200-wat
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1258642122&/Rotel-RMB-1095-5-channel-200-W
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1257949412&/Rotel-RMB-1095-200x5-HT-amplif
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1260451306&/Sunfire-Cinema-Grand-200watt-5
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstran&1258676529&/Parasound-HCA-1500A-power-amp
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampsmult&1259978418&/B-K-Components-Reference-7250-
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Hey everyone hows it going?

So this is my system and with my current set-up my main speakers are not being used to what I believe could be their full potential. Here's the thing, I've already sunken a lot of money into my system over the years and with my new plasma I just bought, I'm pretty tapped and cannot afford anything too expensive right now.

My Setup: (Not Bi-Wired)
Dahlquist QX-10's towers 150W RMS (250W Peak)
Dahlquist QX60C Centre
Dahlquist QX-5s Rears
Dahlquist 15" powered Sub
HK AVR-520
Panasonic TCP54V10 54" Plasma
PS3 /HD Box etc.

I bought the Dahlquists a few years ago because they were the best speakers I could afford! They actually are pretty damn good speakers IMO but with my setup are being wasted. I have a pair of smaller Dahlquist bookshelfs in my other room running off an HK AVR-230 and I get almost the same bass from them as I do from my QX-10s with this setup.

What should I do? I don't know anything what the external amplification options there are out there these days. Is there any good options under $400-500 Cdn that A. will really bring my main speakers alive, and more importantly B. Not detract from the sound? I like my speakers bright, clear and loud.


Think it's worth Bi-Wiring them?


Thanks for listening guys.


Jon
Adding more powerful amplification is a plus if you listen at moderate to high SPL levels regularly. But at average SPL levels that most people listen at, it's not going to make much if any difference. What SPL level do you often subject yourself to?

Room treatments are critical for almost any speaker system. (There are highly controlled directionality systems that makes it less important - but these are in the minority). Do not over look this issue. Investing a few hundred dollars into treatments will probably yield your best improvement.

If you are determined to add more amplification, pro amps are often the best value. Most home amps offer LESS performance for MORE money. My main system, which will easily best most audiophile systems at any cost, is based on all professional amps now. At one time, I did use 'audiophile' amps, but that was my mistake. They offer no real improved performance, just improved cosmetics. There is no scientifically valid explanation to warrant high end amplifiers based on performance. Now, if you just want the cosmetics and pride of ownership, these are valid reasons.

-Chris
 
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lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
Adding more powerful amplification is a plus if you listen at moderate to high SPL levels regularly. But at average SPL levels that most people listen at, it's not going to make much if any difference. What SPL level do you often subject yourself to?

Room treatments are critical for almost any speaker system. (There are highly controlled directionality systems that makes it less important - but these are in the minority). Do not over look this issue. Investing a few hundred dollars into treatments will probably yield your best improvement.

If you are determined to add more amplification, pro amps are often the best value. Most home amps offer LESS performance for MORE money. My main system, which will easily best most audiophile systems at any cost, is based on all professional amps now. At one time, I did use 'audiophile' amps, but that was my mistake. They offer no real improved performance, just improved cosmetics. There is no scientifically valid explanation to warrant high end amplifiers based on performance. Now, if you just want the cosmetics and pride of ownership, these are valid reasons.

-Chris
Automation is vital to most of us with wives. I've yet to determine a good way to automate my pro amps.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Automation is vital to most of us with wives. I've yet to determine a good way to automate my pro amps.
It's relatively easy to use relays to activate them from the 12V activation on many recievers/pre-amps. There may even be special power strips with a 12V trigger input available that would be suitable.

In any case, I can hardly see the difficulty even if you have to 'manually' push the power buttons... LOL. Wow, has society become the epitome of lazy, or what? :)

-Chris
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
fredk hit the nail on the head. I really do not think that you have any equipment short-comings. From what you described, it seems to me that you likely have room acoustics issues.

People often go on the hunt and spend lots of money on new speakers, new amplifiers, new cables, etc. All in an attempt to get better sound. In the end, everyone eventually realizes that good audio is an equal partnership between the gear and the room.

There is a very good possibility that simply moving your seat will result in large improvements to your sound. Many people have their seat pushed right up against the back wall. Or else they happen to be sitting in a bass null, where it just so happens that the echoes from the room's walls are creating a cancellation of sound.

So - ways to improve your room's acoustics:

1) Focus on proper placement. Try to place your seat so that it is 1/3rd of the way into the room. In other words, if your room is 15 feet long (from the front wall to the back wall), place your seat so that your head will be 5 feet from the back wall and 10 feet from the front wall. Also try to place your primary seat so that it is basically centred width-wise (the actual "ideal" is to be 6" to either side of dead centre width-wise).

Place your front speakers so that they are at least 2 feet away from any wall. And place them so that they are not exactly the same distance from the front wall and the side wall. In other words, do not place them so that they are 2 feet away from the front wall and 2 feet away from the side wall. Make those distances different - 2 feet away from the front wall, 3 feet away from the side wall, for example.

Do the "subwoofer crawl" to find the best location for your subwoofer. Move your seat out of the way and put your sub in the location where your primary seat would be. Put on some bass test tones (this test tone CD is a great tool). Now, go to the various spots in your room where you would be able to put the subwoofer. These spots will likely be along the walls, but simply check the sound at each location where you could reasonably put the sub. Squat, kneel or crawl so that your head is at approximately the same height as when you would be seated. Pick out the spot where the bass sounds clear, even and undistorted. Once you find that spot in your room, put your subwoofer there, move your seat back into position, sit in your primary seat and enjoy the better bass :)

Getting a second subwoofer can greatly help to make the bass response even and flat across all of your seats - not just your one, primary seat. If you get a second subwoofer, the best spot for it is typically symmetrically across from the first subwoofer.

Decoupling your subwoofer is also very important if you want to avoid hearing distortion created by your room. All subwoofers physically shake. And when they do, the floor also physically shakes along with them. When the floor shakes, so do the walls and the ceiling. And this is why you can hear the bass throughout the entire house, even if the higher frequencies are inaudible! What you need to do to avoid this is to physically separate the subwoofer from the floor, and this is called, "decoupling". Essentially, you are placing a "shock absorber" in between the subwoofer and the floor so that the physical shaking of the subwoofer never reaches the floor beneath it. You will still get some room shaking, purely from the sound output. But it will be much less severe than when the subwoofer is coupled to the floor and it will only happen at the few resonant frequencies of the room, rather than at virtually all frequencies.

I highly recommend the Auralex SubDude or Auralex GRAMMA for a decoupling device. They are extremely effective. There are alternatives though that aren't quite as effective, but still help a great deal, such as those foam sanding blocks that you can easily buy at Home Depot for just a few dollars :)

2) With placement out of the way, you can further improve your acoustics with passive room treatments. I subscribe to the idea that you want the sound coming from the front of the room to be very direct and free from reflections. I also subscribe to the idea that you want the sound coming from the front to "wash over" you and then "disappear" behind you. Meanwhile, you want the sounds coming from beside you and behind you (your surround speakers) to be diffuse.

So I subscribe to the fairly common practice of using absorption panels on the front wall and absorption panels on the side walls at the first (and sometimes second) reflection points as well as absorption panels directly behind you. On the ceiling and on the side walls directly beside you and behind you, I recommend diffusion panels. And, naturally, I recommend bass traps in the corners. You can also run bass traps along the wall-to-ceiling and wall-to-floor edges if you want to control the bass even more effectively.

3) Finally, after placement and room treatments have been tended to, you can use active equalization (EQ) to really dial in the final frequency response and get nearly ruler flat response at your listening position. Personally, I do not see active EQ as a "cure all" or a means of making a bad acoustic environment into a good one. Rather, I see active EQ as a means to get that last, tiny little bit of performance out of your system after you have taken all the steps above to make your room and placement as good an acoustical environment as possible :)
 
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WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai
Automation is vital to most of us with wives. I've yet to determine a good way to automate my pro amps.
Depending on the number of amps, one or two old Adcom ACE-515's will do the trick. They are switched on and off by your receiver's switched convenience outlets. They also delay the amp turn on for 10 seconds, and on power-down turn off the rest of the system 30 seconds after the amps are switched off.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
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N

Nanoprobed

Audiophyte
It must be the room

I think you guys are all right.

cfrizz: You know what I tend to agree with you on not cheaping out on components. I have always been a proponent to buying in the best quality to price ratio within my budget (after factoring the law of diminishing returns). In this case I just thought I could get away with it but I guess I'll have to save a few bucks first and get something better. As far as audiogon goes, I've heard really good things but I'm wondering what's the chance of getting scammed? I know every seller has a given rating but in the case of ebay, ive seen guys with great ratings (hacked/faked), selling shoddy equipment or simply scamming buyers. Is the audiogon community better?

fredk, First Reflection: I think you guys are spot on. My media room is unfortunately fairly small. I only have around 12X12 feet to play with, fitting in a couch, my 54" plasma, the speakers and everything else! As far as the acoustics go the wall directly behind the TV and the front soundstage is very well insulated, the two side walls are semi insulated, and the wall behind me is a window covered by an (unused) roll down projector screen! (Laugh I know) Unfortunately because of the size of my TV, my back couch has to be directly up at the windowed wall.

Fronts are about 1.5 ft from front wall, 3 feet from one side wall, and 4ft on the other side (as there is a door on that side) As far as the subwoofer goes I really hate the spot it's in but Im not sure I can do about it. It's to the left of my couch and I would rather have it coming somewhere from the main soundstage but I can't because my tenant is on the other side of the wall and the bass would drive him nuts. (although this floating decoupling subwoofer idea... I'm thinking the cheap hardware store solution, will that work?)

The one reason why I was very adamant in actually upgrading the power to my mains was the problem with the subwoofer bass. As you mentioned in your response, it does shake the room and the result is boomy, which is good for maybe only rap. My main concern was getting clean bass which i thought the amplification would have solved. I'm going to try some of those bass trapping options and maybe the acoustic panels as well. I'll start with the decoupling haha.

Still got two questions: Does Bi-wiring do anything? (I can't get a straight answer on this) (Bi-amping maybe, but like in my case (without extra amplification) is there even a point?)

And an amplification question... lets say you go out and buy something nice like this 200X5 amp that cfrizz posted:
(wont let me post link... bastards!)
Will my system sound better at lower volumes than it does right now? Obviously I know it's going to let me crank it up with less distortion but at regular listening volumes, lets say that being twice or three times of someone speaking, is there a justifiable improvement?

Thanks for the info guys -- good to know I'm not alone in wanting to achieve perfection in sound -- Now only if I won the lottery....


Jon
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
The bass problems that you described have nothing to do with amplification.

For one thing, a 12 x 12 room is kind of a nightmare for bass response. Any time you have dimensions that are equal or evenly divisible, you're going to run into major bass nodes (peaks and nulls).

Bothering your neighbor and having the room shake are definitely signs that you need to decouple your subwoofer! Certainly give the foam sanding blocks a try - it's a cheap solution. If you really want to reduce room shaking and bothering your neighbor to a minimum, I still recommend springing for the $50 Auralex SubDude or GRAMMA, but the foam sanding blocks will give you a healthy taste of what decoupling can accomplish. Maybe convince you to use the SubDude in the future ;)

If you can pull your seat away from the back wall even just 1 foot, that will help. Bass traps, in your room, will definitely be a help as they will decrease some of the bass node issues (though not solve them).

You can also get some absorption behind your seat if you opt for panels that use a free-standing system. GIK has options for stands. I'm using one myself so that I can place a panel in front of one of the French doors at the back of my room. Works like a charm :) I can get perfect placement of the panel and still easily move it out of the way if need be.

At lower volume levels, increasing your amplifier power won't accomplish a thing. The only way it would make a difference is if your current amplifier has some serious noise issues and is producing a noise floor that is obscuring detail. A lot of people go from a cheap receiver to a proper amp and notice a great improvement in detail, but this is the result of reducing the noise floor, not a case of the Wattage actually making any difference. At lower volume levels, you'll often be using less than 1 Watt per channel and typically not more than 10 watts per channel.

So amplifier wattage output is rarely the problem. Only during really loud output - as has been mentioned. But noise floor issues are a different matter. Cheap amps often have quite a high noise floor, so they obscure low level detail. The amps in Harmon Kardon receivers are pretty decent though and while there might be a very small improvement with a dedicated amp, I really do not think that amplification is the source of any of your audio woes. From your description, I'd wager any short-comings in your audio are mostly from your room. After that, a speaker change/upgrade would get you far more noticable results than an amp upgrade. In a room as small as yours, it's HIGHLY unlikely that you need more amplifier power ;)
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
I definitely heard an improvement in my speakers at a lower volume. There is greater clarity, lyrics are easier to hear/understand, where as before with my receiver everything sounded a bit jumbled. I was amazed at how many lyrics I ended up going "Oh is that what she/he is saying?":eek::D

I would trust sellers on Audiogon over Ebay. Naturally, do your research on the person you are considering purchasing from. I purchased my Sunfire Prepro from Audiogon.

Biwiring is useless since you are still trying to get more power out of the same receiver amp that can't handle it now.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
The bass problems that you described have nothing to do with amplification.
+1 on this and the rest of his post.

Do an experiment. Park yourself in your couch and listen to something bass heavy. Then park yourself in a chair in front of that position and repeat the sequence. Do the sam in the middle of the room. Do you notice a big difference in the bass response?

P.S. Geez FirstReflection! I feel like I'm doing tag team audioholic wrestling with you. Your turn, tag up... :D
 

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