what dimension, shape and material is the ideal listening room?

R

Roo

Audiophyte
Hello All,

I am moving house so have the opportunity to buy / adapt / build the ideal listening room and welcome all sugesstions regarding size, shape and / or building materials.

My system has Paradigm S8 speakers and I hope to add a sutiable sub, so I imagine I need a reasonably large room - minimum 20' x 15' (6m x 5m) with a ceiling preferably raked from 8' to 10' (2.4 to 3m)? But I am also wondering what might be a minimum sensible size for a dedicated listening room? And any thoughts about sound insulation from the rest of the house? Happy wife, happy life and all that! ;-)

Also ideal would be for the side walls to flair outwards, with a very solid wall behind the speakers - double brick / concrete with curved corners in the room behind the speakers, no windows, thick carpet, and heavy curtain or similar sound dampening on the side and rear walls?

My intention would be to place the speakers about 8' - 10' (2.5m - 3.0m) apart, about 3' (1m) in from the back and side walls with the seating position 10' - 14' (3m-4m) back from the front wall.

The ideal set up is for listening to classical music but I also want to use the room for some hard rock and large TV experience - but these come behind my main priority which is classical music.

I'd be most grateful for all and any ideas / links to resources / or whatever.

Many thanks.

Roo / Rupert ;-)
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
This is not easily answered, nor is it cut and dry. I can say from experience, my 20x12x8 room gives me a very flat response.

Ideally, you wouldn't want any parallel walls, but unless one is building a room from the ground up, this is hard to find. Small room are worse than big rooms, and square rooms, or rooms that have similar dimensions that are close to square, are the worst.

The biggest problem with rooms is bass. Frequencies >300hz are easily managed with room treatment. Depending on the room, the dimensions can either help or harm the low frequency response. Room dimensions equal to 1/2 or 1/4 of the wavelength will be amplified by the room boundaries, for example, a 20'x15' room will have modes at 28hz and 37hz, 28hz being amplified by the length, and 37hz being amplified by the width. The distance of the sub from the wall, and the distance of the seating to either wall, will determine the amount of gain, for example, if you were to place the sub in the corner of this room, and seat yourself along the side wall, you would experience a large peak at around 40hz. Ideally, you would place the MLP at around 38% of the distance from the front wall or rear wall, which would achieve the flattest response.

So how can it help the low frequency response? Let's say you have a subwoofer that begins rolling off at 30hz, and front speakers that start rolling off at 60hz. Now let's say you place them in a 28'x15' room. At 28x15, the fundamental room modes are 20hz and 38hz. Assuming the room is closed, and the walls offer excellent rigidity, the response of your speakers should theoretically be extended to 40hz, and the sub down to 20hz. I say this from experience.

My front speakers have an anechoic -3dB point at 66hz, in my 20x12 room, this is extended to 50hz -3dB. I have a similar set if speakers in an 18x15 room, giving me a response down to 38hz -3dB.

How can it hurt? My bedroom is 12'x11', with modes at 46hz and 51hz. Since both room modes are close in frequency, this gives me a nasty 10dB boost at 50hz, making the bass sound boomy at one note.

Speaker and seating placement is equally important. Moving the subwoofer out and away from room boundaries will reduce the interaction at the room modes, whether or not this is ideal is entirely dependent on the room dimensions and subwoofer in question. Placing the couch directly against the back wall, and the sub in the corner of the front wall, will give a boost of 6-12dB at the room modes, which is likely to sound boomy. Directly in the middle of the room, both the reflected sound and direct sound meet with equal power, causing what I lime to call a "bass vaccum", at 38% from the front or rear wall, the level of the direct and reflected sound is more or less equal, leading to the flattest response.

As you can see, " ideal" dimension depend entirely on the speakers in question, and the seating arrangement. A pair of small satellite speakers that roll off at 80hz may sound great in my tiny square bedroom due to room gain, but a sun with a deep extension to 20hz will sound boomy. Small room and square rooms especially have problems with flutter echo at high frequencies, but like I said, this can be easily treated. To tame the room modes at frequencies below 100hz requires massive bass traps, since the absorbing material must be as thick as 1/4 wavelength to properly absorb it. It's impractical to place rigid fiberglass panels 6' out from the walls to tame a 50hz room mode. You're better off using multiple sub's on the middle of each wall and EQ to tame it.

Brick&concrete will help with room boundary gain, and also contain some of the sound in the room since it's far more rigid than drywall, but will also give very loud reflections at high frequencies. I would place drywall over the concrete, and then treat the walls accordingly. Place the listening position at 38% from the front/rear wall, and the speakers 22°-30° apart. Use diffusion at the first reflection points and absorption on the rear wall/ceiling.

I would also look into adding a center channel and surrounds. Even if your music is encoded in 2ch, Dolby surround or Prologic II does a fantastic job of pulling the ambiance out if classical. Stereo is flawed and can never properly recreate the 3D soundstage of classical music. Floyd Toole has spoken a lot about the shortcomings of it. Many "purists" refuse to use matrix upmixing, but Dolby surround does not add anything that isn't already in the music. When classical music is recorded in a large auditorium, the reflected sou d arrives at the microphone later than the direct, Dolby surround analyzes the signal in both the frequency and time domain, to properly reroute that reflected sound to the surrounds, where it should be. The lack if a center channel causes comb filtering, and requires the listener to sit directly in the sweet spot for the imaging trickery to work, with Dolby surround, the imaging stays regardless of seating position.

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk
 
R

Roo

Audiophyte
As you can see, " ideal" dimension depend entirely on the speakers in question, and the seating arrangement.

My speakers are Paradigm S 8 and you can find the specs here:

https://www.paradigm.com/products-archived/series=signature/model=signature-s8/page=specs

I'm afraid I don't understand the term 'roll off' - certainly not as it might relate to technical specifications.

Can you expand on this point a little please in relation to the Paradigm S 8s?

Thanks again.

Rupert
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
For insulation from the rest of the house, I would suggest a detached structure (with a breezeway connecting them). You could use the second level of a detached garage.
Also might consider underground if you are in a noisy area - getting your background noise level down can be challenging.
Companies like GIK Acoustics will come and provide custom measurement & installation for room treatments, or you can take your own measurements and provide room dimensions and they will tell you what treatments to use and where to locate them (no charge for analysis if you do all of the legwork at your home). Of course, that is after the room is completed. However, you might start a dialog with them and see what they have to offer in the way of room design suggestions.

PS - where are you located?
 
R

Roo

Audiophyte
Thanks Kurt!

Why a second level of a garage? I was thinking of converting the garage itself.

I now live in Australia but I am moving to the west of Ireland - so the surrounding area will be nice and QUIET. ;-)

Rupert
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks Kurt!

Why a second level of a garage? I was thinking of converting the garage itself.

I now live in Australia but I am moving to the west of Ireland - so the surrounding area will be nice and QUIET. ;-)

Rupert
Well, while I'm not one of them, most people use their garage to put cars in!

No more Kiwis or Emus...blissful silence at last!:cool::)
 
music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
Dude, Cardas has your back! You just need to have a room that is has Golden section proportions. Something close to 15.7 w x 23.6 l x 10.1 h. Place speakers as prescribed by Cardas also in golden section positions relative to side, back and ceiling, and yourself similarly, and you are in for harmonic bliss.. Don't expect to use the room for much else though.


Or, dude, get an anechoic chamber!

Except while it is ideal, for most people listening to most music it would likely also seem unnaturally dry and flat. Useful for measuring speaker response.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
This is not easily answered, nor is it cut and dry. I can say from experience, my 20x12x8 room gives me a very flat response.

Ideally, you wouldn't want any parallel walls, but unless one is building a room from the ground up, this is hard to find. Small room are worse than big rooms, and square rooms, or rooms that have similar dimensions that are close to square, are the worst.

The biggest problem with rooms is bass. Frequencies >300hz are easily managed with room treatment. Depending on the room, the dimensions can either help or harm the low frequency response. Room dimensions equal to 1/2 or 1/4 of the wavelength will be amplified by the room boundaries, for example, a 20'x15' room will have modes at 28hz and 37hz, 28hz being amplified by the length, and 37hz being amplified by the width. The distance of the sub from the wall, and the distance of the seating to either wall, will determine the amount of gain, for example, if you were to place the sub in the corner of this room, and seat yourself along the side wall, you would experience a large peak at around 40hz. Ideally, you would place the MLP at around 38% of the distance from the front wall or rear wall, which would achieve the flattest response.

So how can it help the low frequency response? Let's say you have a subwoofer that begins rolling off at 30hz, and front speakers that start rolling off at 60hz. Now let's say you place them in a 28'x15' room. At 28x15, the fundamental room modes are 20hz and 38hz. Assuming the room is closed, and the walls offer excellent rigidity, the response of your speakers should theoretically be extended to 40hz, and the sub down to 20hz. I say this from experience.

My front speakers have an anechoic -3dB point at 66hz, in my 20x12 room, this is extended to 50hz -3dB. I have a similar set if speakers in an 18x15 room, giving me a response down to 38hz -3dB.

How can it hurt? My bedroom is 12'x11', with modes at 46hz and 51hz. Since both room modes are close in frequency, this gives me a nasty 10dB boost at 50hz, making the bass sound boomy at one note.

Speaker and seating placement is equally important. Moving the subwoofer out and away from room boundaries will reduce the interaction at the room modes, whether or not this is ideal is entirely dependent on the room dimensions and subwoofer in question. Placing the couch directly against the back wall, and the sub in the corner of the front wall, will give a boost of 6-12dB at the room modes, which is likely to sound boomy. Directly in the middle of the room, both the reflected sound and direct sound meet with equal power, causing what I lime to call a "bass vaccum", at 38% from the front or rear wall, the level of the direct and reflected sound is more or less equal, leading to the flattest response.

As you can see, " ideal" dimension depend entirely on the speakers in question, and the seating arrangement. A pair of small satellite speakers that roll off at 80hz may sound great in my tiny square bedroom due to room gain, but a sun with a deep extension to 20hz will sound boomy. Small room and square rooms especially have problems with flutter echo at high frequencies, but like I said, this can be easily treated. To tame the room modes at frequencies below 100hz requires massive bass traps, since the absorbing material must be as thick as 1/4 wavelength to properly absorb it. It's impractical to place rigid fiberglass panels 6' out from the walls to tame a 50hz room mode. You're better off using multiple sub's on the middle of each wall and EQ to tame it.

Brick&concrete will help with room boundary gain, and also contain some of the sound in the room since it's far more rigid than drywall, but will also give very loud reflections at high frequencies. I would place drywall over the concrete, and then treat the walls accordingly. Place the listening position at 38% from the front/rear wall, and the speakers 22°-30° apart. Use diffusion at the first reflection points and absorption on the rear wall/ceiling.

I would also look into adding a center channel and surrounds. Even if your music is encoded in 2ch, Dolby surround or Prologic II does a fantastic job of pulling the ambiance out if classical. Stereo is flawed and can never properly recreate the 3D soundstage of classical music. Floyd Toole has spoken a lot about the shortcomings of it. Many "purists" refuse to use matrix upmixing, but Dolby surround does not add anything that isn't already in the music. When classical music is recorded in a large auditorium, the reflected sou d arrives at the microphone later than the direct, Dolby surround analyzes the signal in both the frequency and time domain, to properly reroute that reflected sound to the surrounds, where it should be. The lack if a center channel causes comb filtering, and requires the listener to sit directly in the sweet spot for the imaging trickery to work, with Dolby surround, the imaging stays regardless of seating position.

Sent from my 5065N using Tapatalk
Damn! After this answer I feel like I owe you money and the answer wasn't even meant for me.

If it's not too much, could you tell me the formula for calculating the modes according to wall length?
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Smaller rooms start to become less problematic with traditionally arranged and ample padded furniture. It's when they start following open floor plans and the sterile aesthetic is where things start to go south. Add to that, nearly floor to ceiling glass at every opportunity, hard flooring etc. If you have a room with parallel walls, add 'comfortable' sofas against them and ship the Euro-Scandi style back to Ikea and forget the leather.

Overstuff the room to where it's the most inviting place to take a nap no matter how you land, intentionally or not.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
Smaller rooms start to become less problematic with traditionally arranged and ample padded furniture. It's when they start following open floor plans and the sterile aesthetic is where things start to go south. Add to that, nearly floor to ceiling glass at every opportunity, hard flooring etc. If you have a room with parallel walls, add 'comfortable' sofas against them and ship the Euro-Scandi style back to Ikea and forget the leather.

Overstuff the room to where it's the most inviting place to take a nap no matter how you land, intentionally or not.
MrBoat
Good thoughts. As usual, you can lay out in a simple paragraph what it seems to take the experts pages to accomplish. @yepimonfire wrote a nice overview of the problems and concerns with rooms. I read most of the same points he illustrated when I was investigating setting up my dedicated listening room. All the points may be true. But, if you let that dissuade you from using or creating a dedicated room based on its ratios I think you may be making a huge mistake.

I have a dedicated listening room and on paper, according to the experts, its the worst possible type of space: its a perfect cube. That's supposed to be the audio equivalent of setting your systems up in a salvage yard. My nearfield setup is in a perfect cube of a room and its the best sounding system I've ever owned. A fair number of AH members helped me make it work but the bottom line is you can make any misshapen space work if that's what life has dealt you.

Perfect room? Doesn't exist IMHO. I watched a video by the guy who owns PSA audio. He built a demo room specially for demo'ing his audio gear and then filled it with 100's of thousands of dollars of super high end gear . He "spared no expense" as the guy from Jurassic Park would say. After he got it all put together he still ended up spending a kings ransom on room remediation to make it sound good. Perfect room? Even though he spent the dough, he still ended up with remediation.

I took delivery today of "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychocoustics of Loudspeakers and Room" by Floyd Toole, 3rd Edition. Someone on the AH forum recommended it since his 3rd Edition was just released. It is available from Amazon now. It looks fantastic. I bet after reading it, I'll be able to write even longer responses to questions and topics like this. I think Floyd Toole is amazing.

 
music4cities

music4cities

Junior Audioholic
When you say Cardas... You don't mean the overpriced cables?
Joking I was. Cardas is filled with special new age style magical thinking. Some of their basic stuff is not totally hookum, just well made. Good binding posts for example. ovwrpriced magical wooden blocks on the other hand.... The golden section obsession is hilarious in particular. There is nothing mystical about it or a natural law. But it's happens not to be too terrible as a general proportional guide for rectangular rooms -- not too square and not too elongated -- and ones in which you have some options for speaker placement. Though if you follow cardas's guide to speaker placement you can't use the room for much else. Lol.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Damn! After this answer I feel like I owe you money and the answer wasn't even meant for me.

If it's not too much, could you tell me the formula for calculating the modes according to wall length?
1131(feet per second) / dimension(in feet) = modal frequency (I have no idea what yepimonfire did)

Higher order reflections are logarithmic, so modal frequency x2/x3/x4. It is important to know those because untamed room modes below transition can effect the upper bass and mid range frequencies, and will be shown in measurements. Sound doesn't reflect once and lose energy.

That was Ch.13 of the 2nd edition 'Sound Reproduction'.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
MrBoat
Good thoughts. As usual, you can lay out in a simple paragraph what it seems to take the experts pages to accomplish. @yepimonfire wrote a nice overview of the problems and concerns with rooms. I read most of the same points he illustrated when I was investigating setting up my dedicated listening room. All the points may be true. But, if you let that dissuade you from using or creating a dedicated room based on its ratios I think you may be making a huge mistake.

I have a dedicated listening room and on paper, according to the experts, its the worst possible type of space: its a perfect cube. That's supposed to be the audio equivalent of setting your systems up in a salvage yard. My nearfield setup is in a perfect cube of a room and its the best sounding system I've ever owned. A fair number of AH members helped me make it work but the bottom line is you can make any misshapen space work if that's what life has dealt you.

Perfect room? Doesn't exist IMHO. I watched a video by the guy who owns PSA audio. He built a demo room specially for demo'ing his audio gear and then filled it with 100's of thousands of dollars of super high end gear . He "spared no expense" as the guy from Jurassic Park would say. After he got it all put together he still ended up spending a kings ransom on room remediation to make it sound good. Perfect room? Even though he spent the dough, he still ended up with remediation.

I took delivery today of "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychocoustics of Loudspeakers and Room" by Floyd Toole, 3rd Edition. Someone on the AH forum recommended it since his 3rd Edition was just released. It is available from Amazon now. It looks fantastic. I bet after reading it, I'll be able to write even longer responses to questions and topics like this. I think Floyd Toole is amazing.

I think in my case, having a music only, 2, and 2.1 system tends to simplify things. Whereas, I only have to deal with a somewhat variable and specific (yet not equilateral) triangle throughout the room. I don't entertain a lot. The few people I do share with will fit in this sweet spot, or, I can pinpoint it for when I am in a critical mood, based on near field, or expanded near field tactics and before nulls and cancellation effects. Or at least a true stereo experience.

I think this option exists for a lot of people. Just not so much in a cut and dry, dedicated theater arrangement but, at least as a plan B with their main speakers.

The friend I audio with IRL, has the extreme opposite setup to mine, that employs all of the modern science and enough invested that would comparatively pay off years of my mrtg. The major difference (besides his being 7.1) just with the listening, if we were to forget all the expense comparisons and efforts being, his seemingly at times is hanging by a thread between great and disastrous. One measurement or patch away from total meltdown or indecisiveness. He ends up 2nd guessing what he is hearing a lot. From audiophilia, to perhaps. . . .audiophrenia.

Still, per my listening habits, if I were to build a music room, it would be patterned after this one I have now, and just scaled up a bit perhaps. 4 different types of speakers have worked well so far in this room. Of the 4 different types, it is the waveguide types that have taken the least amount of effort, and offered a much broader and adjustable sweet spot.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
That was Ch.13 of the 2nd edition 'Sound Reproduction'.
The 2nd edition is the one I started reading, but I didn't get to Ch.13. I'm reading it cover to cover.


Thank you for the formula. I know it is important and I'm slowly preparing to finish the system I imagined. This will come in handy.


Joking I was. Cardas is filled with special new age style magical thinking.
Do I feel silly...
Sorry for that. Your second sentence almost made me think we could be friends. If you don't allow "special new age style magical thinking" elsewhere, you're almost there.


Perfect room? Doesn't exist IMHO.
Let's just stop here for a moment and not do injustice to yepimonfire. He wasn't talking about a perfect room. Quite the opposite. He was talking about what to be wary of in imperfect ones. I think that if one would change the language slightly to make it more precise and less referential, knowledge would take hold easier and flourish more abundantly. People would have to stop thinking that it is their systems they are trying to make sound good. It is their rooms they are trying to make sound good. There's a beautiful word in my language "ozvučiti" (you'd read it like this; oh-zwoo-chee-tee). It means to imbue something with sound. To add an attribute of emitting sound to something that previously didn't posses this attribute. Think of it like this; power-empower / sound-ensound, "ensound" would be a proper translation of "ozvučiti".

Systems are a mean of ensounding your room. The room will play in the end.

This is why knowing what certain surfaces do to sound is important. If your room will cancel out a needed frequency, you have to try and do something about it.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
People would have to stop thinking that it is their systems they are trying to make sound good. It is their rooms they are trying to make sound good.

This is why knowing what certain surfaces do to sound is important. If your room will cancel out a needed frequency, you have to try and do something about it.
Keep reading. I've re-read the book several times, and specific chapters a multitude. And am ready to do it all again with the new edition. It's a TON of information. Smaller domestic living spaces have boundaries that are equal in size to many of the wave lengths being reproduced, vs larger auditoriums where reverberation time helps determine what, where and when is being heard.

With bass frequencies, acoustic phase is key and is reflected in the measurements as to whether a predicted room mode is a peak or a null. For example, 4 corner subs can make the corners sound great, leaving the LP out of phase at certain frequencies. Understanding where the LP is in the room vs the pressure sources lets you know whether a sub is in the wrong place. That's not a fundamental problem with the room, that is just a reality and is something that has to be dealt with.

There's some included images of examples of room treatment, but it's based on measurements taken for those rooms. Measurements are the key, and Floyd dedicates a whole page to what happens with out correct AND comprehensive measurements. And Listening Position measurements are only a single piece of the puzzle.
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Keep reading. I've re-read the book several times, and specific chapters a multitude. And am ready to do it all again with the new edition. It's a TON of information. Smaller domestic living spaces have boundaries that are equal in size to many of the wave lengths being reproduced, vs larger auditoriums where reverberation time helps determine what, where and when is being heard.

With bass frequencies, acoustic phase is key and is reflected in the measurements as to whether a predicted room mode is a peak or a null. For example, 4 corner subs can make the corners sound great, leaving the LP out of phase at certain frequencies. Understanding where the LP is in the room vs the pressure sources lets you know whether a sub is in the wrong place. That's not a fundamental problem with the room, that is just a reality and is something that has to be dealt with.

There's some included images of examples of room treatment, but it's based on measurements taken for those rooms. Measurements are the key, and Floyd dedicates a whole page to what happens with out correct AND comprehensive measurements. And Listening Position measurements are only a single piece of the puzzle.
Toole said he recommends the book to be read as a whole so I'm going by that. You're tempting me to jump chapters.:) I must resist, but can't wait to find this.

At first I took your 1131 feet/sec to be the speed of sound, but searching through available articles I can find almost all other numbers but this one, so I have to ask no matter how obvious it may seem to you; is it the speed of sound or some sort of median taking several air temperatures into account.

Even so, just by roughly calculating one of the modes I detected the source of boomines in my room.
 
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