What am I hearing? (inefficient speakers)

[roll - gybe]

Hey guys,
I have some era D4s that I love. I give them good power and they sound great. There is one characteristic I am trying to nail down. Somthing I like.

The eras push a lot of air, and are very punchy in terms of drums and vocals. It seems to me that there is a natural quality to the way the air is moved. Kind of like how much energy went into the drum. It's not just a noise, it is an effort. The seem to be very "fast" as well - and I know that term is not legitimate.

By way of comparison, I have some Swan 6.1s and some Vandersteen 1bs - all are well fed with amplification. The effect I am trying to articulate is unique to the eras.

I might be describing something that has an official term. If so, please let me know what it is. Do I just like really inefficient speakers?

Hopefully this is like understanding that you like the hops, not beer!

 

[JCW]

I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to, but I'll give you one possible option. As you know on HD TVs there is a lot of talk about hz...how fast the screen refreshes itself. Well, certain stereo components have the same issue. I know old Peavey Amps (CS-800) would run forever under any circumstances, but they sounded like %^&*.

We finally discovered something (if I am remembering correctly) called the slew rate, or how fast it takes the input signal to get out the amp. The CS800 was a great live band amp (500 w/ per channel), but it sucked beyond comprehension as a hifi amp because it was so sluggish sounding with a horribly slow slew rate. However, Peavey claimed that is a big reason in why that amp never failed.

Thick coned speakers are slower to move than thinner coned speakers, but they hold up better (primarily woofers). Some car woofers are so thick it takes 500 watts to make them move, but guess what...you can't hurt them.

I think all of that transfers somewhere into the hifi world in equipment and speakers, but we don't dwell on it very often. I know my Crest Power Amp will light up my speakers to the point that the sound almost comes out too soon and it's very "exciting" sounding, where my regular Sony and Onkyo receivers sound good, but they are definitely slower in getting the signal out and the difference is hard to pinpoint but it's there and very obvious...clean, but slower and with less intensity.

This should really open up a discussion. Who's next?

 

[Jeff R.]

I can better answer your questions that would reference the hops and beer.

 

[Pyrrho]

Whether a particular speaker is efficient or inefficient tells one nothing about the sound quality (though it does say something about the amplification necessary for it). You should look to other matters for sound quality, such as distortion, frequency response curve, etc.

 

[no. 5]

Whether a particular speaker is efficient or inefficient tells one nothing about the sound quality (though it does say something about the amplification necessary for it). You should look to other matters for sound quality, such as distortion, frequency response curve, etc.

Absolutely.

If you want to know what audible characteristic you like about the speakers, you need to know what kind of acoustic characteristics they have.

 

[roll - gybe]

Good input. Let me point out that I am trying to identify an audible characteristic. I suggested efficiency as a guess, merely because I can compare the speakers to more efficient speakers in my actual room.

I believe this is something that I either cannot identify on a FR graph, or doesn't get charted.

The eras are tuned pretty low (50hz) for a small bookshelf. The quality that I enjoy is their lifelike percussion of air - if that makes any sense. Despite their small size I can feel the drumbeats (at any volume) much more so than any of my other speakers.

This is an audible and sensory quality. I am not sure what it is called in speaker language.

 

[JCW]

Since you referenced drumbeats and "feeling" the sound, I'm assuming you mean bass/kick drum...aka...low frequency. There are a couple of things that come to mind here. There are 2 main styles of speakers. One is a closed or air suspension cabinet and the other is a ported cabinet.

Ported cabinets generally produce more dynamic bass as the air pressure is released (forced) out the port. They are also typically more efficient, especially at lower volume. Sealed cabinets generally have tighter bass, but not as strong or evident feeling bass as in air pressure, etc.

The other thing is what frequency response the speakers have at different frequencies. The cabinets you like may be a lot more efficient at 50-100 hz, which is where the bass drum sound will be.

That's the end of my comments on your question.

Good luck finding your explanation!

 

[no. 5]

Good input. Let me point out that I am trying to identify an audible characteristic. I suggested efficiency as a guess, merely because I can compare the speakers to more efficient speakers in my actual room.

I believe this is something that I either cannot identify on a FR graph, or doesn't get charted.

The eras are tuned pretty low (50hz) for a small bookshelf. The quality that I enjoy is their lifelike percussion of air - if that makes any sense. Despite their small size I can feel the drumbeats (at any volume) much more so than any of my other speakers.

This is an audible and sensory quality. I am not sure what it is called in speaker language.

What you are describing very much sounds like a frequency response related event.

Since drumbeats can have acoustic energy low enough in frequency to be effected by room modes, it's possible that in room measurements of each speaker that was compared would shed more light on the issue.

I bring it up because the physical location of the radiating elements (i.e. woofers, ports, ets...) within the room will have an effect on what is heard; if two speaker cabinets are in approximately the same location, but their woofers, ports or passive radiators are not, the room modes at the listening position may be energized differently, causing a different low frequency "sound".

Also, if you are comparing frequency response curves, they need to be of sufficient detail to see anything useful, furthermore, a host of measurements may be necessary; if (by chance) what you are hearing is a form of compression, or an interaction with the amplifier, a single FR graph will not revel it.

 

[roll - gybe]

The ported vs. sealed point strikes up some thought...

The eras are ported, but the port is small, and although I can feel air forced out of the port, I have seen the designer say that the port is fairly inconsequential to the speakers performance due to how the cabinent is tuned.

Interesting. Maybe I will take up the discussion with him over at AVS. However, my goal is get somewhere general regarding my prefered characteristics... not just preferred brands...

no.5 I like those thougts. My feeling is that the room is not the factor. I have acutally moved the gear from my carpeted bedroom to my cavernous, wood-floored great room and experienced the same sensations. Something in the FR may still be in effect though, and if so, I would be interested in getting to the bottom of it.

Once I learned that I like my beer needed to have cascade hops, my beer drinking became much more sophisticated!

 

[j_garcia]

That's just it though, if the speakers of a particular line in a certain brand are what you like, that means you like what the designer is doing and what one guy/company's thoughts are on what sounds "good" is rarely going to be the same as another. You may not find the same combination in another brand, but I know what you mean. It is: What are the characteristics that you like? I'd say you need to listen to plenty of speakers and then you will likely be more able to pick out what it is that you are liking about them. For me, it is mostly about the midrange - it has to be clear and 3 dimensional. When I hear my current speakers it was instantaneous that I knew that these were what I was looking for so I bought them.

Speakers are not efficient, they are sensitive, and the two are not interchangable terms when discussing speakers.

 

[no. 5]

Something in the FR may still be in effect though, and if so, I would be interested in getting to the bottom of it.

For what it's worth, here are Stereophile's measurements of the Era D4. The somewhat exaggerated upper bass and elevated tweeter level may be at the root of what you like about the speakers.

 

[Davemcc]

I've spent some time listening to the D4 and I know exactly the effect you are referring to. The D4 really puts out some strong, natural sounding bass that you wouldn't expect from a speaker it's size. I read the Stereophile link no.5 provided and I think there is a reference to what is going on which reads as follows:

"However, there was a degree of upper-bass bloom that sounded not unpleasant. This also contributed to the illusion that the Design 4 was producing more bass than it actually was, and also subjectively balanced its slight excess of mid-treble energy. "

I think this is a deliberate (and successful) product of the designer's work voicing the speaker and tuning the ports. Something else in the back of my head that I'm not sure of has to do with woofer size. It seems to me that the woofer needs to move a lot of air to get the punchy bass of the D4. To do that with such a small driver, it's going to have to have some pretty good excursion on that driver. That might also play into the speaker's sound or tone.

 

[Pyrrho]

I've spent some time listening to the D4 and I know exactly the effect you are referring to. The D4 really puts out some strong, natural sounding bass that you wouldn't expect from a speaker it's size. I read the Stereophile link no.5 provided and I think there is a reference to what is going on which reads as follows:

"However, there was a degree of upper-bass bloom that sounded not unpleasant. This also contributed to the illusion that the Design 4 was producing more bass than it actually was, and also subjectively balanced its slight excess of mid-treble energy. "

I think this is a deliberate (and successful) product of the designer's work voicing the speaker and tuning the ports. Something else in the back of my head that I'm not sure of has to do with woofer size. It seems to me that the woofer needs to move a lot of air to get the punchy bass of the D4. To do that with such a small driver, it's going to have to have some pretty good excursion on that driver. That might also play into the speaker's sound or tone.

I am unconvinced. I have heard the same argument regarding the Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE (International version):

http://www.kellsieavdesign.com/Leisure2SE_Review.PDF

In my opinion, artificially boosting the upper bass in an effort to hide the fact that the deep bass is not being properly reproduced is only going to work with people who don't know what the low end should really be like. Simply put, extra upper bass isn't the same as actually having deep bass. I personally am happier with a speaker with a flatter frequency response than one that overemphasizes the upper bass in an effort to disguise the fact that the deep bass simply isn't there. (The U.S. versions of the Aurum Cantus Leisure 2SE do not suffer from this defect, and also manage to honestly give deeper bass.)

 

[R-Carpenter]

Well, You really can't expect deep bass from the speaker of this size and price range. Speaker designer will have an objective to make a design sound pleasing. By having a slight mid bass exaggeration this speaker will create a pleasant more life like musical experience to some and mud for others. It's a matter of personal preference. Surely, a flatter speaker will be more honest and fair in terms of sound reproduction, but will it stand out in the crowd from the commercial point of view?

 

[Davemcc]

In my opinion, artificially boosting the upper bass in an effort to hide the fact that the deep bass is not being properly reproduced is only going to work with people who don't know what the low end should really be like. Simply put, extra upper bass isn't the same as actually having deep bass.

It's not a question of deep bass. The D4 is a small speaker and only goes to 58Hz. It's intended to be used with a sub. But the bass that it does produce has a certain quality to it that, like the OP, I also find pleasing. The OP describes it as "The eras push a lot of air, and are very punchy in terms of drums and vocals. It seems to me that there is a natural quality to the way the air is moved." Whatever is the cause of this characteristic, at least he's not the only one to notice it.