well here goes nothing

M

marcoman22

Audiophyte
this would be an attempt at connecting 18 speakers, one television, one ipod, and one cable box.

i am not new to a/v but i dont know it all. my experience in working with a/v is having the av guy explain bits and pieces to me on the fly while he is doing the installation of corporate conference room systems. i get the jist of building a rack but would need specific guidance on certain things. what that will be i dont know yet it will be pretty much whats not working at the moment during the build or what i cant figure out from threads and internet research

i am new to this forum and would appreciate any help with any of this even a phone call may be easier to explain certain things. i work in IT so i can pretty much get it if explained just need some basic guidance.


so let me start by explaining what is existing in the build.

the house is wired with 18 speakers. more in some rooms than others.

**What kind of amplifier would i need and how many?
**I am going to guess i need more then one amp, how would those daisy chain or connect together.( i was looking at rotel amps)
**how would the cable box connect to the amplifier so most importantly we can watch football in all of its surround sound glory :)

thanks for any tips here i know its a lot to respond to but it will be much appreciated for a very beginner a/v guy.

:D
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
OK, well we will definitely need more info..
First where are the 18 speakers exactly? Pics would be the most help, but a room count would do to, for example, 2 in the kitchen, 2 in the dining room, 2 in the bedroom, 5 in the living room, ect...
Next is what does the wiring look like? 2 wires from each speaker to a volume control, wires just ran all to one location, ect... where do they go and come from and how many are there...

What I am imagining you have is a 5 channel surround sound in one room which would be a center, left and right front and a pair of surrounds towards the rear of the room, with a subwoofer rca cable in a corner somewhere... then a some rooms with 2 speakers in each.... ????

If that is the case you can do it many ways, the most cost effective way is to buy an AVR that supports 5.1 and zone 2 like this one DENON AVR-1911 7.1 Home Theater 3D Multi-Source/Multi-Zone Receiver | Accessories4less
then you will need an amplifier to power your zone 2 like this one Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier 300-812 then a distribution box to go to your enitre house system like this HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more! {there was another option on this too, I think BMX linked to it before but I can not remember}.. And if you want to be able to control the volume of your individual stereo spekers that are in each room you will need a volume control in each room, like one of these Amazon.com: Pyle Home PVC1 Wall Mount Rotary Volume Control Knob: Electronics... thats about the most inexpensive way I have seen to do it, and it seems to last the longest, I went the multi channel amp route with a $2000 12 ch amp from a couple of known manufacturers and had nothing but problems after a while {we use it quite often, I know others that have the multi ch amp systems with no issues BUT, they dont use them as often as us,... When building it this way you only have a few components that are all very inexpensive, you can buy 10 of these setups for what one multi ch amp can cost you.... So far I havent had one issue with a volume control, selector box or amplifier... I use an amp that is a little more expensive from Emotiva UPA200 and it works great, but I have used the apa150 and it is just as good, just a little less power, but normally you dont blast your whole house system...

Good luck and welcome to the forum..
 
tmurnin

tmurnin

Full Audioholic
Ive actually had the reverse experience from ImCloud. I had a Denon AVR-3313 w/speaker selector box on zone 2, but had constant problems with the Denon overheating when zone 2 was played for more than 2-3 hours. Switched to a Speakercraft 12-ch multi-zone amp (bought at a local closeout store for ~ $600) and have had no problems.

Are there already volume controls in the rooms where the speakers are? If not, you will either need to add them or be content with your AVR zone 2 volume playing all the speakers at the same volume.
 
M

marcoman22

Audiophyte
more info

Ok let me break that down for you and thanks for such a quick and info filled response.

in the TV room upstairs there are 8 speakers
2 speakers in the living room
2 in the kitchen
2 on the downstairs patio
2 on the upstairs patio
2 in the dining room

the wall mounted volume control knobs already exist so thats awesome you mentioned that.

the speakers wires run to one location. i didnt count them but there are quite a few and of course poorly labeled lol. what i did notice was that some have 4 wires coming out of one wire, is that a lazy way of running for a pair of speakers? or is that the standard? the wires are red green black and white inside of a purple housing sheath.

sorry i cant get pics its my cousins house and they arent home right now.

thanks again for the guidance here this is helping me diagram this all in my head.

one last question, will i be able to link the Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier multiple times or does the connection loop stop after one set of rca hookups. for example ipod to rca in to rca out to rca in(on next amp)

thanks a million! i love this forum already!


OK, well we will definitely need more info..
First where are the 18 speakers exactly? Pics would be the most help, but a room count would do to, for example, 2 in the kitchen, 2 in the dining room, 2 in the bedroom, 5 in the living room, ect...
Next is what does the wiring look like? 2 wires from each speaker to a volume control, wires just ran all to one location, ect... where do they go and come from and how many are there...

What I am imagining you have is a 5 channel surround sound in one room which would be a center, left and right front and a pair of surrounds towards the rear of the room, with a subwoofer rca cable in a corner somewhere... then a some rooms with 2 speakers in each.... ????

If that is the case you can do it many ways, the most cost effective way is to buy an AVR that supports 5.1 and zone 2 like this one DENON AVR-1911 7.1 Home Theater 3D Multi-Source/Multi-Zone Receiver | Accessories4less
then you will need an amplifier to power your zone 2 like this one Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier 300-812 then a distribution box to go to your enitre house system like this HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more! {there was another option on this too, I think BMX linked to it before but I can not remember}.. And if you want to be able to control the volume of your individual stereo spekers that are in each room you will need a volume control in each room, like one of these Amazon.com: Pyle Home PVC1 Wall Mount Rotary Volume Control Knob: Electronics... thats about the most inexpensive way I have seen to do it, and it seems to last the longest, I went the multi channel amp route with a $2000 12 ch amp from a couple of known manufacturers and had nothing but problems after a while {we use it quite often, I know others that have the multi ch amp systems with no issues BUT, they dont use them as often as us,... When building it this way you only have a few components that are all very inexpensive, you can buy 10 of these setups for what one multi ch amp can cost you.... So far I havent had one issue with a volume control, selector box or amplifier... I use an amp that is a little more expensive from Emotiva UPA200 and it works great, but I have used the apa150 and it is just as good, just a little less power, but normally you dont blast your whole house system...

Good luck and welcome to the forum..
 
M

marcoman22

Audiophyte
yes the volume control knobs exist in the kitchen ( not sure what speakers they control other ten the kitchen 2) and the outdoor pation has a volume knob.

thanks!!
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Ive actually had the reverse experience from ImCloud. I had a Denon AVR-3313 w/speaker selector box on zone 2, but had constant problems with the Denon overheating when zone 2 was played for more than 2-3 hours. Switched to a Speakercraft 12-ch multi-zone amp (bought at a local closeout store for ~ $600) and have had no problems.

Are there already volume controls in the rooms where the speakers are? If not, you will either need to add them or be content with your AVR zone 2 volume playing all the speakers at the same volume.
Sorry bud, but you don't have the same system as me, you are using your receivers amplifier section to run your zone 2, that is a no no, most avrs are good for 8 ohms on their zone 2, and only 6 ohms on their primary zone.... What I recommended to the OP and own myself is a separate 4 ohm stable amplifier running the zone 2, I would never connect a speaker selector to an avrs zone 2 output, I actually wouldn't even hook a se of speakers to it, just grab a separate 2020 amp or something if you want to run a separate zone, its much better....
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Ok let me break that down for you and thanks for such a quick and info filled response.

in the TV room upstairs there are 8 speakers
2 speakers in the living room
2 in the kitchen
2 on the downstairs patio
2 on the upstairs patio
2 in the dining room

the wall mounted volume control knobs already exist so thats awesome you mentioned that.

the speakers wires run to one location. i didnt count them but there are quite a few and of course poorly labeled lol. what i did notice was that some have 4 wires coming out of one wire, is that a lazy way of running for a pair of speakers? or is that the standard? the wires are red green black and white inside of a purple housing sheath.

sorry i cant get pics its my cousins house and they arent home right now.

thanks again for the guidance here this is helping me diagram this all in my head.

one last question, will i be able to link the Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier multiple times or does the connection loop stop after one set of rca hookups. for example ipod to rca in to rca out to rca in(on next amp)

thanks a million! i love this forum already!
OK first lets deal with his theater, 8 speakers where are they in the room? front center, front left, front right, left rear, left surround, right rear, right surround, rear center? is there a plug for a subwoofer?

Before I suggest how to run the rest of the speakers what is the Budget for the complete system? How I would do it is, 2 speaker selectors and a 3 zone capable AVR, then I would use an amplifier with either auto on or 12v signal control..... I would run the 8 inside speakers off zone 2, and then the 4 outside for zone 3.

As far as connecting multiple devices, like ipod, cable box, ect, all of that will be connected to your AVR and then you can choose what you want to play inside, outside, and in the theater, either 3 separate, all the same, 2 of the same, ect...

Lastly, your concern about the speaker wire, they are fine, each set of 4 wires powers 2 speakers from one room.... that is normal practice...
 
tmurnin

tmurnin

Full Audioholic
My fault for omitting something. I actually had zone 2 running off a Rotel 2-ch amp (8 ohm) which was then hooked to a speaker selector box. Still caused issues with the Denon.
 
M

marcoman22

Audiophyte
ok let me diagram this all out and get started. the budget you ask?? i am not sure but i wouldn't recommend them to spend a bunch of money on it since they are mainly going to use it for the home theater and outside speakers for music as well as the kitchen. i think i have enough info to get started. if it were my house i would go full tilt boogie hehe :D

you guys are awesome here and i am really impressed with this forum so far. thanks a million folks!
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
My fault for omitting something. I actually had zone 2 running off a Rotel 2-ch amp (8 ohm) which was then hooked to a speaker selector box. Still caused issues with the Denon.
HOW? that sounds pretty impossible, you are only using the preouts, how would that cause your avr to overheat, Im going to have to call impossible on that one, had to be ?? actually I don't know what it could have been, except your main speakers over heating your avr since your avrs amp section wasn't involved in the loop except to delivery a low output rca signal....

I have never heard that before but to get back to the ops system....


If they have a decent budget I would go with a
this avr for the home theater DENON AVR-3311CI 7.2-Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less
one of these for the inside 8 speakers HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more!
one of these for the outside 4 HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more!

then for the amplifier there are a lot of options...
You need 4 channels around 100 watts each... You can go with one of these UPA-500 Five-Channel Power Amplifier | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and use 2 channels for the inside 2 of the outside and then have one unhooked... or 2 -2 channels, like the apa150 or the UPA-200 | 125W x 2 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifi {these are what I use, great amps}...

This will allow you to run your home theater system on the main zone, run zone 2 for the inside 8 speakers, then zone 3 of the 4 outside speakers, with separate material on each or the same on all... Cost would be around $1200 depending on which amps you went with, but that is also going to control the home theater {which I am curious to the layout, because I am having a hard time figuring out how they have 8 speakers, 7 would make since because it could be 5 for ht and then 2 for whole house or 7 for ht alone {most people dont put whole house monitors in their theater}.. BUT 8 is weird, unless one is a sub?
 
M

marcoman22

Audiophyte
HOW? that sounds pretty impossible, you are only using the preouts, how would that cause your avr to overheat, Im going to have to call impossible on that one, had to be ?? actually I don't know what it could have been, except your main speakers over heating your avr since your avrs amp section wasn't involved in the loop except to delivery a low output rca signal....

I have never heard that before but to get back to the ops system....


If they have a decent budget I would go with a
this avr for the home theater DENON AVR-3311CI 7.2-Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less
one of these for the inside 8 speakers HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more!
one of these for the outside 4 HDMI Cable, Home Theater Accessories, HDMI Products, Cables, Adapters, Video/Audio Switch, Networking, USB, Firewire, Printer Toner, and more!

then for the amplifier there are a lot of options...
You need 4 channels around 100 watts each... You can go with one of these UPA-500 Five-Channel Power Amplifier | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and use 2 channels for the inside 2 of the outside and then have one unhooked... or 2 -2 channels, like the apa150 or the UPA-200 | 125W x 2 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifi {these are what I use, great amps}...

This will allow you to run your home theater system on the main zone, run zone 2 for the inside 8 speakers, then zone 3 of the 4 outside speakers, with separate material on each or the same on all... Cost would be around $1200 depending on which amps you went with, but that is also going to control the home theater {which I am curious to the layout, because I am having a hard time figuring out how they have 8 speakers, 7 would make since because it could be 5 for ht and then 2 for whole house or 7 for ht alone {most people dont put whole house monitors in their theater}.. BUT 8 is weird, unless one is a sub?
I will check to see if that th speaker is a sub or i miss counted. that would make more sense.
i will also have pictures later today so you can see what i am working with cable wise.
I am going for the setup ImcLoud listed above at 1227pm to keep it basic and cost effective.
i will get the go or no go today for sure and will have photos for reference throughout the build.

thanks again folks much appreciated.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
You have a basic setup that is 1 zone that is 7.1 surround, and then 5 rooms of distributed audio.

As a rule, the first thing you want to do is get really organized. That means that every single wire coming out of the wall gets a decent label on it which you can read 10 years from now. Also, put together a spreadsheet for the little details.

The cable with 4 wires coming out of the wall is industry standard. You have one cable, and the four conductors handle a stereo speaker pair in a room. It is likely 16 gauge or 14 gauge wire and it will have printed on the side '16/4' or 14/4' meaning the wire is 16 gauge with 4 conductors. This runs from the head end (where all the equipment will be) to the volume control in each of your five stereo zones. This is extremely common to see, and I fully expect that you will find that there are five 16/4 wires coming out of the wall... One for each of the stereo zones. Then the rest of the 2-conductor cables will be for the 7 channels in the TV room, and there should be one coaxial cable for the subwoofer. If this is NOT what is there, then you need to respond with details of what is there.

I would also pull off a volume control at some point to see if anyone was bright enough to wire some cat-5 to each of the volume controls so an actual controller could be put in place. Doesn't sound like it from what has been said so far.

If the setup is 7.1 + 5 stereo zones, then I would do what was said to begin with.

1. Get a surround A/V receiver which has enough inputs and power for the main TV room area and is at least a 7.1 channel, 2-zone product.
2. Get a decent amplifier for the distributed audio speakers (the 5 stereo zones).
3. Get a good 6 room speaker selector with integrated impedance matching.

Any sources you want to play into the distributed system must be connected with analog audio connections (red/white RCA jacks). While this seems easy enough, certain new products don't have analog audio connections on them anymore! Things like AppleTV fall into this category. They only have a digital optical and a HDMI connection on them and at this time, no receiver, to my knowledge, will decode audio off of HDMI to a second zone, so you will need to address that with us later if you run into that issue (there are some new solutions which help with this!)

So, let's use the Denon 1911 previously mentioned as an example.

1. Connect your cable box to the SAT/CBL input on the back of the receiver via HDMI.
2. Connect your cable box to the SAT/CBL input on the back of the receiver via red/white RCA audio connections.
3. Connect your Blu-ray Disc player to the BD input on the back of the receiver via HDMI.
4. Connect your Blu-ray Disc player to the BD input on the back of the receiver via red/white RCA audio connections.
5. Connect the rest of your sources in this manner. Any sources which do not need to feed into the distributed audio system do not need to be connected via RCA cables.
6. Connect your 7.1 audio speaker wires to the red/black 5-way binding posts on the back of the receiver. Use decent banana plugs to do this properly!
7. Connect the red/white "Zone 2 Output" RCA jacks to your dedicated whole house amplifier.
8. Connect the whole house amplifier outputs to the input connection on your speaker selector
9. Connect each pair of speakers in your whole house system to each of the audio outputs on the speaker selector. One speaker pair per output pair.

Turn on stuff/test/enjoy

Option 2 follow all the same advice, but instead of a speaker selector and a single amp, get a 12 channel amplifier with audio loop through.

Niles SI 1230 Systems Integration 12 Channel Power Amplifier 760514007376 | eBay

A model like this provided 30 dedicated watts to each speaker in the entire system and should do so reliably.

NOTE: Make sure all your amplifiers are in a well ventilated area. Do NOT put them into enclosed cabinetry unless that cabinetry has proper ventilation running through it.

I do have a preference for multi-channel amplifiers as I've had great luck with them and like the dedicated power. But, I've set things up with a single amp without issue as well.

I don't like the fact that the previously linked Dayton amp has a fan on it. I don't believe that fans should be on consumer grade equipment as it adds noise to the room that equipment is in. IF the equipment is in a separate room, such as a basement storage area, then this won't matter at all, but if the whole house amplifier is in the TV room, then when the fan is on, it will add noise to this room which is something I don't like. The above linked Niles amplifier is convection cooled, so there are no fans. But it must be well ventilated to suck head away properly.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I don't like the fact that the previously linked Dayton amp has a fan on it. I don't believe that fans should be on consumer grade equipment as it adds noise to the room that equipment is in. IF the equipment is in a separate room, such as a basement storage area, then this won't matter at all, but if the whole house amplifier is in the TV room, then when the fan is on, it will add noise to this room which is something I don't like. The above linked Niles amplifier is convection cooled, so there are no fans. But it must be well ventilated to suck head away properly.
I have a bunch of them daytons, including the carver and the original BPA1 emotiva units, its one of my favorite amps, I have NEVER heard a fan, I know its there, and I dont know if they ever come on, but I have never ever noticed one, and in one of my systems you may have seen pictures of it, I have 2 of them ran bridged as mono blocks to a set of 6 ohm jade 5s, and they are on wood blocks in front of the speakers, and that system gets pushed to pretty loud levels, and I have never heard the fans, even when the phone rings and I mute the system, no fan noise at all... IMO they are the best amps for the money, dollar per watt for anything over 50watts a channel, I can't think of one better... The other thing is they are built like tanks, they take a beating and keep playing, I know a guy running one at 4 ohms bridged to a DIY 10" dvc subwoofer, its on when ever his tv is on and its 5 years old, used every day and every night, and supposingly they are only rated at 8ohms when bridged, I've never heard him complain about the fan and it is on top of his sub next to his seating!!!

Don't get me wrong, I have heard some other equipment with fans, and the fans are audible when they come on, some have even added distortion to the system, but that isn't the case in the apa150, ma-202, or bpa-... I thin marantz even relabelled one of these, something like an ma-700?... Very good desing, very good product, even better price...
 
M

marcoman22

Audiophyte
thanks bmx trix when its all done i will post pics
 
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