Want to improve your bass…Try this.

[mardelgo]

Ok I will start saying that I know that there will be some guys,
that will say that this is wrong, that this is not the way, that
THX recommends…, bla, bla bla, before they test it, (I also thought the same), but just for ones, try this and give me your comments latter. Maybe this will not work or not will be necessary for every system, but If you have a system like mine,(middle end receiver (Yamaha rxv1400), a not extremely power sub (170 watts rms) and big front towers (Polk rti 12) you should try this.
Ok, this is my story: I like how my system sounds, but at the same time I always felt that It just didn’t had the impact (punch) of a good cinema. I though that maybe I need to spend a lot of money (separates or top of the line receiver) to feel the same.(For example in the theater I feel the explosions in my chest, but in my home I heard the sub BOOM).A few weeks ago I went to a friend house that have a better system that mine ($3000 Denon receiver and $600 velodyne SUB,) and guess what: I felt the same that in my house. Not enough punch. How can this be possible?. Well a few days latter another friend told me this: that select sub in the receiver to NONE, that select bass output to FRONT, and that connect the sub to the FRONT L/R PREOUT of the receiver. The Difference is AMAZING.For the first time I hearing mine Front speaker work (bass wise). My other friend (Denon-Velodyne) did the same and told me that now for the first time he sees his receiver doing some work, moving his JBL speakers.( I now what your thinking: the Speakers can’t reproduce low frequencies as good that the sub, that the receiver don’t have enough power, etc, because I thought the same, but now I hear my system like never before. I highly recommend you to try it. A very good movie that I used that almost every one here may have is Attact of the Clones,in the first part of the movie when Queen Amidala arrives and the ship explodes. It may be not the right way to connect your system, but for me is the “Better sounding way” Ps: sorry if my English is bad , I speak Spanish (Costa Rica) See you.

 

[nibhaz]

my intuition says bad…but kid in me says fun

hhhmmm...an interesting method of obtaining more bass, I imagine sound quality may suffer, in that I cant imagine how you would level match this setup in order to obtain a linear frequency response...but then again not everyone is looking for linear are they?....yes, indeed very interesting, I cant wait to see the post that follow...

 

[krzywica]

I did a similar setup to yours. But I did'nt find it necesarry to scrap the LFE I just turned my reciever (same reciever as yours) to bass out both and full range sound will be fed to your mains. It does make a huge difference if you have a low to mid range sub and great mains (I've got athena asf2's). Even though it's not the "prefered method" I think it sounds and feels much more dynamic.

 

[Doug917]

mardelgo,

I have a Yammy 2500 and felt it was lacking a little punch in the bass department. I adjusted the tone control to set the frequencies of 125Hz and lower up 3.5dB. The difference... amazing! The advantage to doing this is it does not muddy up the sound. I have listened to my system with the bass set to sub and mains and it loses sound quality. By adjusting the tone control instead, there is no loss of sound quality.

 

[newfmp3]

this is not much different then how people with STereo or just pro logic receivers or amps connect subs. I had this done as well on my old carver setup.


The problem with it is that it is harder to volume match, and now you are sending EVERYTHING through the sub, not just lfe, which is why it sounds louder.

I'm wondering if you have the sub calibrated right from the original setup. Anyways, don't matter, whatever you think sounds better is all that matters.

 

[Spiffyfast]

Cant you just use the low pass crossover on the sub, then you dont have to worry about those higher frequencies?

 

[j_garcia]

Cant you just use the low pass crossover on the sub, then you dont have to worry about those higher frequencies?

Yep. Using this connection method, you need to dial the sub in manually. The reason you get "more" slam is because you are doubling the output in the overlapped frequencies, most likely creating HUGE peaks at various frequencies. The negative; you are likely creating nulls somewhere else too... Neither is good.

 

[newfmp3]

Just get a good HSU or SVS sub and pound the #@$% out of your house

 

[Spiffyfast]

Just get a good HSU or SVS sub and pound the #@$% out of your house

always a good option , but why not 2..?

 

[MacManNM]

Yep. Using this connection method, you need to dial the sub in manually. The reason you get "more" slam is because you are doubling the output in the overlapped frequencies, most likely creating HUGE peaks at various frequencies. The negative; you are likely creating nulls somewhere else too... Neither is good.

This is absolutely true.

The correct way to achieve that bass you so long for, is to optimize your system. You are wasting power and sound by overlapping the sub and fronts. You can get that same hard-hitting bass by lowering the crossover frequency of your fronts, and matching your sub levels. You force the sub to play only the lowest portion of the music; this is where the greatest power is consumed. Also, frequencies above 50 Hz start becoming directional, by lowering this cutoff, imaging will improve. It seems that all of the receivers set up to do this differently, but the basic idea is to use both the front and the sub to play bass, the sub plays 45 and down, then the towers play 45 and up. I don’t recommend this if your towers employ drivers any smaller than 6”. This is even a stretch. If the -3db point on your speakers were, say 37Hz, then I would recommend something around 50. If they go down to 27 then set the crossover to 40. There will be room-to-room variation but I have found this to work really well. It also creates a dramatic improvement in music.

 

[gene]

You force the sub to play only the lowest portion of the music; this is where the greatest power is consumed. Also, frequencies above 50 Hz start becoming directional, by lowering this cutoff, imaging will improve.

Actually there are cases such as my T2 system where I acheived better bass integration running the satellite speakers large and overlapping the sub. Since they can handle the bass it is not an issue. Then in other rooms I did a T2 system install, they worked best set to small. It all depends on room dynamics, there really are no absolutes here.

As for setting subs to 50Hz or lower, that is usually not a good idea since many processors will truncate LFE to the subs if you do that. Also bass really doesn't become localized until above 80Hz. If you use a standard 24dB/oct slope like THX, you should be golden.

 

[MacManNM]

Actually there are cases such as my T2 system where I acheived better bass integration running the satellite speakers large and overlapping the sub. Since they can handle the bass it is not an issue. Then in other rooms I did a T2 system install, they worked best set to small. It all depends on room dynamics, there really are no absolutes here.

Measurements that I have made in the past suggest an excitation of modes in this configuration. I have measured changes of up to 11db compared to not overlapping the outputs. The room does have a lot to do with it.

As for setting subs to 50Hz or lower, that is usually not a good idea since many processors will truncate LFE to the subs if you do that. Also bass really doesn't become localized until above 80Hz. If you use a standard 24dB/oct slope like THX, you should be golden.

No receiver that I have ever done this with has truncated the low frequency output to the sub, it is supposed to cut the upper end of the sub spectrum though. The lack of directionality of bass is simply not true IMO. I personally can tell the directionality of a 60Hz signal coming from a sub, however; as the frequency goes lower, the location does become harder to pinpoint.

I recommend doing things this way because most HT subs sacrifice bass in the 35-50 regions in order to play the 25 and below (what I call effect bass).

 

[RLA]

Correct subwoofer placement is key to good performance.Selecting the correct subwoofer for the room is another consideration.
Get the mechanics correct first,then make adjustments for tuning.

PS If you are using the radio Shack SPL meter add + 5 dB for LFE
speakers at +75 or +80 ( if you are using internal or external tones) sub at
+80 or +85 DO NOT USE YPAO to calibrate subwoofer levels

 

[mtrycrafts]

Ok I will start saying that I know that there will be some guys,
that will say that this is wrong, that this is not the way, that
THX recommends…, bla, bla bla, before they test it, (I also thought the same), but just for ones, try this and give me your comments latter. Maybe this will not work or not will be necessary for every system, but If you have a system like mine,(middle end receiver (Yamaha rxv1400), a not extremely power sub (170 watts rms) and big front towers (Polk rti 12) you should try this.
Ok, this is my story: I like how my system sounds, but at the same time I always felt that It just didn’t had the impact (punch) of a good cinema. I though that maybe I need to spend a lot of money (separates or top of the line receiver) to feel the same.(For example in the theater I feel the explosions in my chest, but in my home I heard the sub BOOM).A few weeks ago I went to a friend house that have a better system that mine ($3000 Denon receiver and $600 velodyne SUB,) and guess what: I felt the same that in my house. Not enough punch. How can this be possible?. Well a few days latter another friend told me this: that select sub in the receiver to NONE, that select bass output to FRONT, and that connect the sub to the FRONT L/R PREOUT of the receiver. The Difference is AMAZING.For the first time I hearing mine Front speaker work (bass wise). My other friend (Denon-Velodyne) did the same and told me that now for the first time he sees his receiver doing some work, moving his JBL speakers.( I now what your thinking: the Speakers can’t reproduce low frequencies as good that the sub, that the receiver don’t have enough power, etc, because I thought the same, but now I hear my system like never before. I highly recommend you to try it. A very good movie that I used that almost every one here may have is Attact of the Clones,in the first part of the movie when Queen Amidala arrives and the ship explodes. It may be not the right way to connect your system, but for me is the “Better sounding way” Ps: sorry if my English is bad , I speak Spanish (Costa Rica) See you.

Did you level match your sub to the other speakers before the modification?
Maybe you need to increase the level to the sub?

 

[mardelgo]

Did you level match your sub to the other speakers before the modification?
Maybe you need to increase the level to the sub?

Yes, well first I used YPAO but I feel that was too low. So I add 2+ db (YPAO set it to -2). But the lack of bass is not the problem, in fact I don’t like a loud bass, is the type of bass. Let me explain: with my subwoofer I have bass, but is a boomy bass, a very low frequency bass (like all subs, that’s what they do, right?) and if I for example, turn of the sub there is almost no bass from the Fronts: so why any one will buy a BIG Front Tower speakers and don’t use it. That’s silly. And the lack of bass is from DTS and Dolby D, in PCM, Dolby prologic or normal stereo the sound and bass is fine. I heard a Denon Receiver (4803 or something like that) and it was the same. So my conclusion is that the problem is not the receiver or the Speakers (The friend that has the Denon has a JBL speakers that have a big woofers) is the way Dolby D a DTS are encode. Maybe they do so , because if you don’t have a big front speakers, or if you don’t have a powerful receiver, then yes, the only way is to send all the bass to the SUB. But why don’t use "my precious" towers (bass) if they sound so freaking good?( lot more dynamic and "fast" than the sub bass).

 

[Jaycan]

so why any one will buy a BIG Front Tower speakers and don’t use it.
This is the conundrum when you try to mix an audio system with a HT, and where, IMO, that strict THX guidelines are too restrictive. You are totally right. Buying large front towers is a waste if you are going to cross them at 80 Hz to satisfy the THX commandments. Personally, I have been following the Richard VAndersteen model of subwoofer management by NOT using the LFE out from the receiver. Rather I set the fronts to LARGE, sub to NONE, and run speaker level cables from my separate amp directly to the 2 subs speakers inputs. Then I calibrate with AVIA/DVE and SPL meter. This just blows away the typical THX setup. The only difference between my setup and Vandersteen's is that I do not use a first order xover between preamp and amp, since again, this would cut bandwidth to my main towers. And BTW, my main towers each have two 12 inch woofers and one 12inch passive radiator, a total of six 12" radiating surfaces, so they are a more than capable large HT front. This setup allows me to maximize my music listening experience, because it is so maddening when you setup for HT and then try and enjoy redbook CDs on the same system, and find that the calibrations requirements for both activities are different.

 

[gene]

The lack of directionality of bass is simply not true IMO.

Actually its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of fact as experts such as Dr. Floyd Toole and Thomas Holman (formerly of THX) have proven in their research. If you are localizing the bass when the crossover is set above 60Hz its likely either 1) pressure wave detection, or 2) you have the subs set too high and their out of band energy above 80Hz is being localized.

If you don't think some receivers/processors truncate LFE if the crossover is set below 80Hz, then you probably haven't messed with many products featuring the dual/triple crossover system? Unfortunately many of those do. To date, the only multi crossover systems we tested that haven't are from Denon and Integra Research.

Personally, I have been following the Richard VAndersteen model of subwoofer management by NOT using the LFE out from the receiver.

You can do this, but now you lose the ability to have level control via the preamp and provide distance compensation. You now have to make sure you place the subs in close proximity to the mains or you risk time alignment issues at the very lowest frequencies which can negatively affect bass performance. In addition, some processors actually cut LFE response going to the main channels - even with NO sub present - to avoid risking overload of the processor.

 

[newfmp3]

yeah, what gene said


Anyways, another thing that could "trick" you. When your using the sub plugged into the pre-outs, now the tone controls are also effecting the sub. Turn up the bass and treble and now your changing the sub.

Sub placement is very critical as well. My HSU was upstairs on a hardwood floor while waiting for the media room to be done. Upstairs, you could feel the bass much much more, granted the hardwood kind of screwed up the sound a bit.

Now, downstairs, I had run sub cables to three ends of the room through the walls beforehand. One was underneath the screen which was where I did not want to place the sub since it's bloody huge...see sig. Besides, a sub under the screen can shake the @#$@# out of the screen and make it rattle.

Anyways, downstairs was a subfloor system, insulated, and the thickest underlay and carpet I could find. Room accoustics came out perfect. But, the places I wanted to have the sub, I could barely feel it. I mean I could "hear it" but I wanted to feel it, like in my belly feel it. Sure enough, I stick it underneath the screen between the 80's, and all of a sudden I could "feel" and hear the bass so much better no matter where I was in the basement...even in another room it made a difference. So the guys are definitely right about placement

 

[mtrycrafts]

Actually its not a matter of opinion, its a matter of fact as experts such as Dr. Floyd Toole and Thomas Holman (formerly of THX) have proven in their research. If you are localizing the bass when the crossover is set above 60Hz its likely either 1) pressure wave detection, or 2) you have the subs set too high and their out of band energy above 80Hz is being localized.

If you don't think some receivers/processors truncate LFE if the crossover is set below 80Hz, then you probably haven't messed with many products featuring the dual/triple crossover system? Unfortunately many of those do. To date, the only multi crossover systems we tested that haven't are from Denon and Integra Research.

You can do this, but now you lose the ability to have level control via the preamp and provide distance compensation. You now have to make sure you place the subs in close proximity to the mains or you risk time alignment issues at the very lowest frequencies which can negatively affect bass performance. In addition, some processors actually cut LFE response going to the main channels - even with NO sub present - to avoid risking overload of the processor.

Some things are just not up for debate, as you indicate.

where is MrQ, the acoustician, just when you need him
With his background, he would have been a great asset here.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes, well first I used YPAO but I feel that was too low. (

You may want to cross check that setup feature with a test disc and an spl meter