Video Games as Art?



Audioholics Robot
Staff member
The eye of the beholder indeed. Rockstar Games recent non-release Manhunt 2 is being touted as "art" by Take-Two Interactive Software Inc. Chairman Strauss Zelnick according to an article by Reuters. Manhunt 2 is apparently so violent and bloody that it has been banned in both Britain and Ireland. But is that why it was really banned?

Discuss "Video Games as Art?" here. Read the article.


Audioholic Ninja
Nice peace. I have been following this story since the start and believe you are dead on. If instead of a ban there was no news about it the game would have never sold, especially because most retailers won't carry AO rated games. When rockstar finally gets to release Man Hunt they will make all their money back from original development as well as the edits they will have to make. Thank you media for only pushing rockstar to make more violent games and see how far they can push the limit ;).


Audioholic Chief
Video games are art. Roger Ebert doesn't think so, but anyone that's ever played a game like Ico cannot say games are not art. Like art, there's good and bad and different tastes. Heck, people have this same argument about *actual* art arguing whether it's art or not.

I don't think that's actually the point here though. Rockstar is arguing it's art to invoke first amendment protection from censorship. While i don't think it should be censored, it's a careless attitude that will have the government clamp down on games and grandstanding politicians trying to "save" your children.

The real problem is the perception that "games" means "kids". There are all types of movies -- movies for adults, movies for kids, movies for everyone. Why can't there be the same for games? Why must all games be squeaky clean family-friendly fare? Why are different standards being applied to different mediums of entertainment? As the gamer generation takes the reigns of government, i think the perception of games being "kiddy" will change. The average gamer is already over 30, and that number is increasing. I don't want a politician that's never played a game telling me what i can and can't play. Of course that won't stop people like Jack Thompson from trying.


Audioholic Intern
The problem here is most definitely the perception that videogames are for "kids" and that "kids" are the target audience for ALL videogames. This was probably quite true - back in 1985 - but everyone who was playing back then is now at least 25; and that's assuming there were 3 year olds playing back then! Point being, there are a LOT of gamers well over the age of 18 now - in fact, we're the bulk of the market!

As was already pointed out, when it comes to other forms of entertainment, there's a clear understanding that not all content is suitable for all ages. Movies & television in particular - so why not games?

What disturbs me the most is that governments and the console makers: Nintendo, Sony & Microsoft are effectively saying that they have no faith in the ratings system.

We have an AO rating, but using it is the same as a ban because the console makers won't allow it to be released with that rating! So I ask, what's the point of the rating in the first place?!

I actually agree with there being an AO rating. To me it makes perfect sense. In movies, we have R, NC-17 and X and XXX - all of them indicate that the movie is NOT meant for children, but there are differences between them - which is why they all exist!

The same is true of the M rating in videogames versus the AO rating.

Here's how it SHOULD work in my opinion:

The M rating should be very much like an R rating for a movie. It indicates that the game is intended for adults - that it is not suitable for children, but if a parent decides to buy the game for their child, there is no restriction on that. This is just like how if a parent wants to take their child to an R rated movie, that is ok. The M or R is a warning and anyone under age cannot buy the game or movie ticket for themself, but a parent is allowed to buy it for them.

The AO rating should be much like a NC-17 or even a XXX movie rating. The difference here is that a parent cannot buy this material for their child. Just like how a parent cannot bring a child into the theater for a NC-17 or XXX movie. No one under age is allowed - even if a parent says they think it's ok.

Since games are not viewed in a theater, the AO rating makes more sense if it is applied like the XXX rating when it comes to retail. What I mean specifically is that a retailer is obliged to refuse the sale of XXX content if they think it is being purchased for someone else. With an AO rated game, the retailer should be obliged to refuse the sale if they suspect it is a parent buying the game for their child - and with games, it's usually pretty easy to tell!

I say, the AO rating exists - so why not use it?! Why make it one-in-the-same as a ban? This effectively says the rating is pointless!

The fault here lies with Nintendo, Sony & Microsoft, not with the AO rating itself or the ESRB. I personally believe there is nothing wrong at all with having an AO rating - in fact, I think it makes perfect sense! I also have no problem at all with the ESRB issuing such a rating. Again it makes perfect sense, just like rating movies XXX.

I can play a XXX rated DVD on my Playstation or Xbox. So why then can I NOT play a AO rated game?!

The policies of Nintendo, Sony & Microsoft in this matter are the real issue here. The AO rating makes perfect sense to me - in fact I like the idea! I also have no issue with giving Manhunt 2 an AO rating - it very likely deserves it - and I've no problem with that! What I think is WRONG is that I cannot play it!

This is a slippery slope because of where it can lead. The term "art" is being used, but what is really at stake here is "freedom of expression" and that is NOT to be taken lightly! If we can effectively ban a game with an AO rating, then what about XXX movies? Are they going to be next? There are certainly some politicians and groups out there that would like to see them banned as well!

Are XXX movies "art"? That's basically the same question. What they are is a type of expression - and so are videogames.

Retailers? I think it's totally up to them. If they don't want to carry a certain product, they certainly don't have to. Best Buy doesn't sell XXX movies - they don't have to sell AO rated games - that makes perfect sense to me!

But imagine if Sony decided that their DVD players won't play XXX movies, or movies rated NC-17!

So again, the problem here is Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft. They control the hardware that plays the content and THEY are saying the AO rating becomes a "ban", rather than a choice and a warning. All recent videogame systems have a parental lockout feature that can block content based on rating. This works for games and for DVDs too for the systems that can play them.

Respect the AO rating. Retailers are free to decide for themselves. Those that do chose to sell AO rated content should be under the same obligations as those that sell alcohol, cigarettes or XXX movies - AO rated games should be "controlled" content. An AO rated game should have to be kept behind the counter and not be displayed along side M and lower rated content - just like XXX movies. Sales of AO games should obviously be limited to legal adults, but should go the step further and sales should be refused if it is suspected that the game is being purchased for someone else - again, just like alcohol, cigarettes or XXX movies.

Games can absolutely be "only for adults" and they are most certainly a form of expression. The ratings system is in place. The AO rating exists. Retailers can chose not to stock an AO rated item. And any retailer who does should be restricted in their sales, just like any other "adults only" content.

But what MUST NOT be restricted, is my right as an adult to play it! This is freedom of expression. This is first amendment rights!

The fault here is with Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft. Shame on them for instituting censorship and limiting freedom of choice!



Full Audioholic
It's a sticky subject, to be sure. Where does community responsibility stop and infringement of personal rights begin? Every person on the planet has differing views on the subject.

But if Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft don't want AO rated games on THEIR console's, they have THEIR right to that.

When you make your own console, you can have whatever games you want for it. It's that simple.

Maybe Rockstar should look into it?


Audioholic Ninja
It's a sticky subject, to be sure. Where does community responsibility stop and infringement of personal rights begin? Every person on the planet has differing views on the subject.

But if Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft don't want AO rated games on THEIR console's, they have THEIR right to that.

When you make your own console, you can have whatever games you want for it. It's that simple.

Maybe Rockstar should look into it?
No mainstream console will have A/O games its a rule that has been put forth and fortified by the fact that almost no retailer will sell games.

Rockstar should not make consoles. Software companies should steer clear of designing and making complex hardware, yes I am talking about Microsoft and the 360.


Full Audioholic
This mess is stirring up alot of emotion for people.
For the most part I agree with what's been said.

I see it like this. There are plenty of gore / gruesome movies out there...that get rated 'R'. Saw 1-3, Hostel, a couple of the hannabil, and Seven, to name a few. There is also plenty of violence and torture, implied, and actual on TV, movies, books, cartoons, music....AND in real life.

So, my question is:
What is the true reason the ESRB is making this game AO?

Is it because they are still pissed at rockstar for manhunt 1, and GTA San Andrea's?

It kinda seems like since most parents don't actually parent their kids when it comes to video games, the ESRB is trying to.

I hope Rockstar releases both versions of their I can by the uncensored one...hmm...maybe I'll let my 3yr old sit in my lap and watch while I play it. :rolleyes:

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