VERY frustrating system design -- help appreciated

[dimes]

VERY frustrating system design -- inwall help needed

YES IT'S A BIG POST. THANKS FOR THOSE THAT TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND HELP ME OUT.

Looking to design a nice 7.1 channel setup in my 20x20 family room. Major home renovation and I can rip apart walls with no problems.

Average Ceiling Height = 11' 4"

The front of the room has it's middle third bumped out a few feet with a fireplace. I've already decided on using a fairly small (26" - 32" lcd) above the fireplace on center and having a roll-up screen in front of the fire place for more serious viewing with the no fire going. There will be custom cabinetry matching the depth of the fireplace on both sides for housing componentry and the left and right speakers.

So now the problems.... WAF dictates I use only inwalls and incabinet speakers.

So what I need is sealed or front ported left and right speakers, timbre matched in-wall center, in-wall direct radiating rear and bi/dipole in-wall surrounds.

I'm fairly well convinced that in-wall speakers with backboxes make for a better finished product. I've searched the internet for how to best install in-wall speakers to eliminate wall vibrations and seal the stud/drywall enclosure. I've come up pretty much empty. Furthermore, when I asked a few custom installer "what do you do when you install an inwall speaker" the repeated response of "nothing" gave me little faith. Having no faith in the alleged local experts and concerned that I'd install in-walls san backbox and be dissatisfied and have to start over I thought backboxes were my best bet.

The original system I want for price/performance was deftech clr/2000 ($650 each) for left and right, deftech inwalls 65 ($429 pair) as center, deftech inwalls 65 as rears ($429 pair), deftech inwall BPZ/A bipolar surround for sides ($750 pair). This whole setup is in my budget and I've had good experience with using and recommending deftech in the past.

Then the fear of no backboxes took hold and I started searching again. The only inwall speakers with backboxes I've found are rbh, monitor and triad.
Of these, it seems that only triad has timbre matched mains suitable for incabinet (no rear ports).

Q1: The 1.5' hearth the fireplace sits atop dictates that a center channel above the tv would be really high and below the tv would make the tv really high. How crazy is it to use two center channels tight on the sides of the lcd? Main listening position would be 10 feet away from centers and mains would be about 5 feet away from center. A nice triangle. Using the projector screen the two center channels would be only a few feet apart centered in the screen. Two centers... Not optimal or the ultimate no-no? If two centers is ok wired in parallel or must I 2 channel external amp?

Q2: Is my fear of inwalls w/o backboxes warranted? The centers would be up against brick which would reflect sound very well. The rears are on an external wall so leakage into other rooms isn't such a big deal. If I put the sides on the side walls one would be up against another room and leaking would be a concern. I could put them in the ceiling although the roof lines make this less than ideal. If I make this call I can go back to my in budget ($3k msrp with no subs and two center) deftech system.

Q3: Do other manufacturers other than Triad make inwall w/ backboxes direct radiators, inwall w/ backbox bi/dipole surrounds and incabinet (no rear port; sealed or front port OK) mains.

Q4: Can anyone recommend mains that would approach the timbre of monitor audio silver inwalls? Then, if I forgo the bi/dipole side surround requirement I'd have another option using 5 matched monitor audio inwalls with mains of similar timbre (but still no rear port).

My local triad reps (2) have been less than stellar having absolutely no triads to demo and appearing fairly unwilling to get a pair for me to demo. Despite the fact that I'll be buying the above mentioned system, plus 5 in-walls for a master bedroom system, and 12 in ceiling for distributed audio. I'm unwilling to spend 3+ k for a low end triad system w/o a listen.

Thanks,

--dimes

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

dimes YES IT'S A BIG POST. THANKS FOR THOSE THAT TAKE THE TIME TO READ IT AND HELP ME OUT.

Looking to design a nice 7.1 channel setup in my 20x20 family room. Major home renovation and I can rip apart walls with no problems.

Average Ceiling Height = 11' 4"

That's a huge room. Are you sure you can't convince the wife to allow some really nice AV123 cherry towers and surrounds?
http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=speakers&product=3.1

So now the problems.... WAF dictates I use only inwalls and incabinet speakers.

So what I need is sealed or front ported left and right speakers, timbre matched in-wall center, in-wall direct radiating rear and bi/dipole in-wall surrounds.

You need to work on her a little longer. How about a truce... Granite countertops if you can have your HT?

I've searched the internet for how to best install in-wall speakers to eliminate wall vibrations and seal the stud/drywall enclosure. I've come up pretty much empty. Furthermore, when I asked a few custom installer "what do you do when you install an inwall speaker" the repeated response of "nothing" gave me little faith. Having no faith in the alleged local experts and concerned that I'd install in-walls san backbox and be dissatisfied and have to start over I thought backboxes were my best bet.

Unless you spend thousands, you are not going to achieve any real mid bass output with inwalls. If you must go with inwalls, you need to pick out drivers that excel in midrange and highs (directional tweeters), and depend on a sub that will reproduce some lower midrange, as well as solid HT bass. Inwalls are terrible for creating a large gap between their woofers and sub.

The original system I want for price/performance was deftech clr/2000 ($650 each) for left and right, deftech inwalls 65 ($429 pair) as center, deftech inwalls 65 as rears ($429 pair), deftech inwall BPZ/A bipolar surround for sides ($750 pair). This whole setup is in my budget and I've had good experience with using and recommending deftech in the past.

The only Def TEch speakers I recommend are the Super Cube Subs. I think the tweeters are a bit harsh, but they can be tamed with the proper pre-amp.

Then the fear of no backboxes took hold and I started searching again. The only inwall speakers with backboxes I've found are rbh, monitor and triad.
Of these, it seems that only triad has timbre matched mains suitable for incabinet (no rear ports).

The best you can do is demo, demo, and demo. Inwalls are inwalls, and there's not much you can do about it. Make sure you fall in love with the mids and highs. That's the best advice I can give you.

Q1: The 1.5' hearth the fireplace sits atop dictates that a center channel above the tv would be really high and below the tv would make the tv really high. How crazy is it to use two center channels tight on the lcd tv? Main listening position would be 10 feet away from centers and mains would be about 5 feet away from center. A nice triangle. Using the projector screen the two center channels would be only a few feet apart centered in the screen. Two centers... Not optimal or the ultimate no-no? If two is ok wired in parallel or use external amp?

I'd advise against two centers. That's a huge strain on your receivers center channel amp. With an directional tweeter inwall, you should be able to angle the tweeter down towards the listening position.

Q2: Is my fear of inwalls w/o backboxes warranted? The centers would be up against brick which would reflect sound very well. The rears are on an external wall so leakage into other rooms isn't such a big deal. If I put the sides on the side walls one would be up against another room and leaking would be a concern. I could put them in the ceiling although the roof lines make this less than ideal. If I make this call I can go back to my in budget ($3k msrp with no subs and two center) deftech system.

This has become a nightmare system. Are you sure you can't convince her of towers/bookshelves?

Q3: Do other manufacturers other than Triad make inwall w/ backboxes direct radiators, inwall w/ backbox bi/dipole surrounds and incabinet (no rear port; sealed or front port OK) mains.

My local triad reps (2) have been less than stellar having absolutely no triads to demo and appearing fairly unwilling to get a pair for me to demo. Despite the fact that I'll be buying the above mentioned system, plus 5 in-walls for a master bedroom system, and 12 in ceiling for distributed audio. I'm unwilling to spend 3+ k for a low end triad system w/o a listen.

Polk and BIC make some nice inwalls that can be installed with backboxes that feature directional tweeters. Have you looked into the BIC Muro 80's and 38's?

 

[AVRat]

That's a nice system you're looking to put together.

Personally, I believe the concern for backboxes is mostly unwarranted. There must be a reason why manufacturers don't offer/require them. However, if you'd like, you could add 2'x material above and below between the studs to create your own box. You could also try to seal the joints with caulking. You might contact Def Tech for volume suggestion. I recently played Peter Gabriel's "Play" DVD at reference levels with no backboxes and no wall vibrations. (See my system) I have tested my surrounds down to 32 Hz, but I do cross them over at 80Hz.

I don't see any problem with a dual center-channel setup since it's a mono signal, but you will need a 2-channel amp to drive them unless your receiver can handle it (Denon AVR-5805). How are you planning to power the system? BTW, are you planning for an acoustically transparent projection screen?

 

[brian32672]

Not sure if you needed recommendations, I briefed through the post.
But these seem to be good inwall speaker sets, including mains, surrounds, subs, etc..
http://www.psbspeakers.com/series.php?sId=12

 

[dimes]

Not sure if you needed recommendations, I briefed through the post.
But these seem to be good inwall speaker sets, including mains, surrounds, subs, etc..
http://www.psbspeakers.com/series.php?sId=12

psb does a nice job and the image line is well within my price range. problems: no bipolar inwall side surround (which i think i want). i'm not sure what there cheaper inwalls are are voice matched too. the high end says they match platinum, which is out of my price range.

they also make some really nice, by design, in cabinet speakers platinum class speakers that are out of my range as well.

thanks.

 

[dimes]

That's a nice system you're looking to put together.
Personally, I believe the concern for backboxes is mostly unwarranted. There must be a reason why manufacturers don't offer/require them.

good point. how can so many manufacturers be wrong?

However, if you'd like, you could add 2'x material above and below between the studs to create your own box.

what were you saying about add 2'x? seems like something is chopped. if i didnt' have backboxes i'd love to reinforce the drywall somehow.

You could also try to seal the joints with caulking.

sealing with caulk seems obvious but again, looking online i figured some a/v site like audioholics would have an "in-wall best practices section. seems like the best practice with in-walls is just "don't use them" if you can help it.

You might contact Def Tech for volume suggestion.

some say all inwalls are designed for a default 16" wide 8' high enclosure studded enclosure. i'll email deftech.

I recently played Peter Gabriel's "Play" DVD at reference levels with no backboxes and no wall vibrations. (See my system) I have tested my surrounds down to 32 Hz, but I do cross them over at 80Hz.

i also assumed that i'd be crossed over at 80hz everywhere but my main channels which is why the triads in my price range, with limited low end reach (70hz or so) didn't scare me too much.

I don't see any problem with a dual center-channel setup since it's a mono signal, but you will need a 2-channel amp to drive them unless your receiver can handle it (Denon AVR-5805). How are you planning to power the system?

probably denon avr 3805. maybe the new yamaha with hdmi switching. i'm not worried about powering it yet. i'd imagine in parallel i'd be fine especially if i start out with 8 ohm speakers. the big question for me now is what are the chances the listeners here a nice blended phantom center channel smack dab in the middle vs. only hearing the center closest to them. i think it'll be fine, especially with the screen down when the serious viewing happens.

BTW, are you planning for an acoustically transparent projection screen?

yes. acoustically transparent screen. i've just begun looking into screens as it's the next big question i need answered since i might require a box built for it on the ceiling. projectorcentral.com is a great site.

i notice your center doesn't match your LR. do you notice this when a front channel pan takes place?

your BP are inwall and DR are in ceiling? this a 7 channel setup right? which is rear and which is side? how do you like your setup?

--dimes

 

[Pyrrho]

That's a nice system you're looking to put together.

Personally, I believe the concern for backboxes is mostly unwarranted. There must be a reason why manufacturers don't offer/require them.

good point. how can so many manufacturers be wrong?

Easy. When you don't have a box on the back, there is no control over what the "speaker box" will be like. Imagine taking your favorite regular speakers, removing them from their box, and putting them in a randomly selected other box (which may vary greatly in size). What do you think will happen to your sound?

Although there are standards in how houses are usually made, there is considerable difference between them in actual practice, including the various materials used, etc. I think your original idea of having in-wall speakers with boxes is the right way to go if you are going to use in-wall speakers at all.

...
sealing with caulk seems obvious but again, looking online i figured some a/v site like audioholics would have an "in-wall best practices section. seems like the best practice with in-walls is just "don't use them" if you can help it.

Yes, they should be avoided whenever possible.

...
probably denon avr 3805. maybe the new yamaha with hdmi switching. i'm not worried about powering it yet. i'd imagine in parallel i'd be fine especially if i start out with 8 ohm speakers. the big question for me now is what are the chances the listeners here a nice blended phantom center channel smack dab in the middle vs. only hearing the center closest to them. i think it'll be fine, especially with the screen down when the serious viewing happens.

For people who are off to one side, they will primarily hear the speaker on that side, and it will affect where the apparent center is acoustically. I would not use two center channel speakers, at least not if you care about the sound for more than one person. In fact, I think you would be better off just using "phantom" mode on your receiver and not use a center channel speaker at all. (That, though, is far from ideal; one speaker, centrally located, anchors the center channel sound to the center. That is the point of having one; otherwise, one may as well not bother having one at all.)

I've also heard horror stories about things getting damaged above fireplaces; are you sure you really want to put your TV there instead of a different arrangement?

If you can't (or won't) have a different arrangement in that room, you may wish to consider using an extra bedroom, if you have one, for your home theater room.

...
i notice your center doesn't match your LR. do you notice this when a front channel pan takes place?
...

--dimes

If the center does not match the right and left, whenever the sound moves from left to right (or right to left) in the front, the tonal quality of the sound will change. This is not good.

 

[Khellandros66]

Its so nice to see more people catching on to the Deftech quality.. I thought I was alone when I first got here but now its all over the place.

I think that the system you chose will plenty for that size room, never ever underestimate Definitive. Their inwalls like their other speakers carry flawless timbre and every speaker matches cause ALL the lines use the sametweeters and materials too.

~Bob

 

[dimes]

q3: on topic

The easieast way to make all of my problems go away: another backbox alternative is still prefered if I can keep it in budget. (~3.5k w/o subs)

Q3: Do other manufacturers other than Triad make inwall w/ backboxes direct radiators (center/rear), inwall w/ backbox bi/dipole surrounds and incabinet (no rear port; sealed or front port OK) mains.

Thanks,

--Scott

 

[dimes]

Its so nice to see more people catching on to the Deftech quality.. I thought I was alone when I first got here but now its all over the place.

I think that the system you chose will plenty for that size room, never ever underestimate Definitive. Their inwalls like their other speakers carry flawless timbre and every speaker matches cause ALL the lines use the sametweeters and materials too.

~Bob

yeah.

i've had a pf15tl sub for years, it was cheap and thumps! at the time it was an incredible deal.

i know a guy with a protower 400 mains, c2 center and onwall bp surrounds who's very happy. he first turned me on to deftechs.

when my wife and i first got together she setup a promonitor 100 LR, c2 center, promonitor 80 (rear) (and got cable) in order for me actually go to her place to hang out. these speakers will probably make there way into what will be our gym.

a buddy of mine, bipolar 2004 tower, promonitor 80 rear, c2 front. very happy.

all deftech experiences have been positive. not perfect but well worth the fairly low price of admission.

now if they only had inwalls w/ backboxes i wouldn't ever had to make that huge post.

--dimes

 

[dimes]

reply to Pyrrho

...
For people who are off to one side, they will primarily hear the speaker on that side, and it will affect where the apparent center is acoustically. I would not use two center channel speakers, at least not if you care about the sound for more than one person. In fact, I think you would be better off just using "phantom" mode on your receiver and not use a center channel speaker at all. (That, though, is far from ideal; one speaker, centrally located, anchors the center channel sound to the center. That is the point of having one; otherwise, one may as well not bother having one at all.)

if you think two centers 2 ft apart is bad due to an an off center localization how can "phantom" mode with mains 13 ft apart be better? that makes no sense what-so-ever!

I've also heard horror stories about things getting damaged above fireplaces; are you sure you really want to put your TV there instead of a different arrangement?

If you can't (or won't) have a different arrangement in that room, you may wish to consider using an extra bedroom, if you have one, for your home theater room.

i'm afraid this is the the only placement option i have. i've run the fireplace for awhile and the brick on the outside is still cool to the touch. i will use a stone mantle to push the rising heat from the fireplace out into the room as best i can. it's a risk but i see so many over fireplace installations i figure there must be some way to get it right.

 

[Khellandros66]

Why the need for back boxes if you have sound leakage just take a wad of foam and staple gun it in the well above and below the speakers. Or get creative and bid your own backboxes.

~Bob

 

[dimes]

Why the need for back boxes if you have sound leakage just take a wad of foam and staple gun it in the well above and below the speakers. Or get creative and bid your own backboxes.

~Bob

this type of advice is what i'm looking for. i've scoured the internet and have found very little "inwall installation best practices" advice. i'd rather not use backboxes as my speakers options are fewer and more expensive. what kind of foam? thanks.

 

[Khellandros66]

I'd prolly use something to the likes of heavy eggcrate foam or sound proofing foam

~Bob

 

[AVRat]

First let me say that I REALLY enjoy my system. I was lucky that the center matches up well with my mains. I cannot discern any tonal difference. I use the BPs for sides and the in-ceilings for the rears (7.1).

I think setting up a dual-channel center would portray an image like a larger center channel, since it's a mono center signal there should be nothing phantom about it.

My 2'x material reference should have read 2"x as in 2"x4" to essentially create your own box using the wall studs, 2"x4"s, and drywall as the box enclosure. You could also add a little acoustic insulation to aid with the leakage issue.

 

[Pyrrho]

if you think two centers 2 ft apart is bad due to an an off center localization how can "phantom" mode with mains 13 ft apart be better? that makes no sense what-so-ever!
...

With the phantom center, the illusion of the center channel will only be perfect if one is in the center (assuming a symmetrical room). So you are right that it will be off for anyone else in the room. However, the whole point of adding a center channel speaker is to take care of this problem, and when you add two, you do not take care of the problem. With a phantom center, the "apparent" center will likely be less distinctly in a particular place, whereas the center that is off to the side will be distinctly in the wrong place (though the second one will tend to lessen how distinctly the sound will appear to come from one place, which, again, somewhat negates the reason for having a center channel in the first place). Also, you must have a very small LCD TV in mind if your two center channel speakers on either side of it are only 2 feet apart.

On the plus side, once you install your two center channel speakers, you can try it out with phantom mode as well, and decide for yourself which you prefer in your particular room from the various places where people will be sitting. Just because they are in the wall, that does not mean you have to use them if you would prefer not to. And, after you have tried it out, feel free to tell me later that you believe I am wrong about which sounds better from the off-center positions. As "better" is a subjective term, it is anyone's guess which you will prefer.

Good luck with your installation. I hope you enjoy it.

 

[Pyrrho]

...
I think setting up a dual-channel center would portray an image like a larger center channel, since it's a mono center signal there should be nothing phantom about it.

...

Try listening to a mono signal through both right and left speakers of your stereo, and then listen to the same signal through one speaker. It will sound different. Surround systems are designed to be used with only one center speaker, so the difference will necessarily be "wrong". That said, he obviously may do as he wishes, as it is his system.

 

[AVRat]

Your problem may be solved - partly.

New UIW Reference Line Source (RLS) 2

Definitive's newest Ultimate-In-Wall speaker, the Reference Line Source (RLS) 2 is a completely enclosed full range loudspeaker engineered for flush mount vertical or horizontal in-wall installation. The sealed non- resonant medite enclosure houses a line source composed of 2 cast basket 6 1/2" high-definition bass/midrange drivers that surround a one-inch pure aluminum dome tweeter blended through the use of a precision Linkwitz-Riley crossover network. Above and below these three drivers are two 6 1/2" planar pressure coupled bass radiators which complete the line source array.

Frequency response is 22 Hz - 30 kHz, recommended amplification is 10 - 350 watts and cut-out size is 6 13/16" x 28 3/16". Overall size is 8 1/8" x 29 3/4". Projected retail price is $650 each

 

[dimes]

Your problem may be solved - partly.

Thanks! I will check these out.

I *think* the lead system right now is the full tower b&w 604 s3 (3-way tower) for mains. I really like the idea of using a full range tower for mains and not LCR so I ended up with this. The whole line seems well reviewed and it fits my budget

The front 3 won't be a perfect match. The 1" aluminum tweeters in the corresponding in-walls, while I believe are identical drivers as the 60x don't have the "tapered tube" behind the driver. I think it will sound close enough.

For side surround: DS6 (onwall) or CDS6 (inwall) (WAF dependant) for side surround will either be ceiling mounted slightly in front of the main listening position OR wall mounted on the sides, slightly behind the main listening position. I love the flexibility of switching between dipole, monopole depending on application. This at least gives me one option once the things are set in the wall.

Rear: WAF dependant more b&w inwalls or 60x bookshelves on furniture for the rear.

Side/Rear optoins 2 is two bi/dipolar in/onwalls rear mounted towards the corners as sides and a single (or two close together) rears also on the rear wall. OR step down to 5.1 and just go with two bi/dipolar in/onwalls rear mounted.

The more and more i play with this abomination of a room (20x20 square, fireplace juts out 2 ft, ceiling goes from 8 to 13 in the front 3rd, 13 to 8 in the rear 3rd, windows on the rear wall, bay window on the left side wall, partially open wall to bar area and a doorway on the right side wall) I resign myself to doing a mediocre job and finishing a theatre in the basement later and accepting second best in this family room.

As stated earlier I was going to do a small lcd above the fireplace and projector with drop down screen above the fireplace. For the cost of a high quality electric screen PLUS installation in framing PLUS a projector in the family room I can probably buy all of the componentry for a small theatre in the basement w/ no windows and no WAF to worry about in a nice simple 10x15 box shaped room.

My goal is still rip the roof off the house soon and be closed in by Winter. There is other neat stuff going on in the family room with a media server, two 19" lcd's flanking the main lcd/projectorscreen, distributed audio, etc. I'll document and share soon enough.

I will check out the new deftech offering. Thank you!