Using Large rear surround speakers

Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<font color='#0000FF'>I am going to raise this scepter again, recently was going through the back issues of Stereo Review magazine and in November 1992 issue, in the letters to the editor section, Peter W. Mitchell of Oceanside, C.A. also raised the same issue.

His curiosity came from an excerpt he read in leading Film Journal from engineers from Kintek, a theater sound manufacturing company. The engineers admitted that there are movies with significant amount of rear channel bass defying the Dolby labs recommended setting of 12-dB roll off. Evidently, sound track producers have been applying equalization and phase shift techniques to overcome the encoder?s roll off, providing strong low frequency to the rear channels making the need for a large rear speaker or rear sub a necessity. Of course one can divert all that to the sub and claim it is inconsequential as low frequency is non directional. However one wonders why the track producers who can do that in the studio end decide to send low frequency component to the rear channels. The engineers claimed feeding rear channels with low frequency gave the more involving ?you are there? feeling.

My experimentations have proven this pretty conclusively for myself and now I set my rears to LARGE and use a small rear sub. It is way better than routing the rear bass to the front subs. Movies like Backdraft and Top Gun as well as Hunt for Red October and Gangs of New York have significant bass signals in the rear. Gangs of NY running DTS gives fantastic Canon renditions in the rear. Putting the bass of the rear to front totally defeats the ambience. I also set my center speakers to LARGE and get way better results that way. My suspicion is that setting the Center to SMALL cancels out the low bass from human voice as well as the ambience. If the center low bass signals are routed to the sub, the human low frequency signal is cut out or there is a greater signal imbalance with the sub exaggerating the center?s low signal.


I got flamed and mauled for posting this same subject at another forum. It became a free for all bash the guy?s equipment. I am not looking for theories here, just practical experience from someone who has tried it out. I know a certain someone at this forum would love to start the theory and book quotations war again but it is futile. Unless you have tried it out yourself, please don?t quote me theories of physics or sound from relics whose association with music and sound is strictly bookish. If you have aural experiences with this setup please feel free to give inputs or totally disagree. If the track producers wanted to divert rear bass to LFE, they have the power to do so but they chose otherwise, there has to be a reason behind this.</font>
 
<font color='#008080'>When I designed sound effects for feature films I routed all my low end sweetening effects to the sub. Anything I panned to the rears was made up of whatever frequencies were in the effect (fire, explosion elements, etc), thus subject to the rolloff you mention.

I think surrounds with greater frequency response would reproduce more of the intended effects from that speaker. The key, though, is how small are we talking. Anything below 80Hz tends to lose its directionality. The higher frequencies from the speaker guide your directional senses, while the low frequency (non-directional) information is supplied by the sub. Unless we're talking about cubes that don't reproduce down to 60Hz, then I think it's a non-issue.

My Axiom QS8's go down to 95Hz (65Hz @ -9db) and I feel a pretty good directional sense from them.

I set my sub to both Mains and Subwoofer. One of the things this does for me is allow me to use my mains to bridge the gap between my 90Hz crossed sub (darn Yamaha) and the range of frequencies sent as sub info from my surrounds being set to small. Confusing, but semi-effective.</font>
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<font color='#0000FF'>Average bookshelf speakers start going flat at around 100Hz or so. If a sub is used, the impact is much better and the ambience is really fantastic. I am using center speakers which are of the same size and charecterisitics of my mains. Just like my mains, they have dual 8&quot; woofers so I can route bass signals to them.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Unless you have tried it out yourself, please don?t quote me theories of physics or sound from relics whose association with music and sound is strictly bookish </td></tr></table>
You are free to ignore the laws of physics if you like how that sounds, after all it's your preference.

On the other hand, it doesn't produce more correct bass in most rooms.  Tried it? Yes I have, and measured some amazing amounts of excessive bass reinforcement or bass cancellation depending on the placement of both subs (also used Top Gun as a demo).

The only time full-range on all channels makes sense is in a large room (&gt;10,000ft3) where room modes and cabin pressure aren't as much of an issue.

By the way, most loud sound effects (except low organ notes)contain initial higher frequency transients (&gt;80Hz) that are usually the directional queues in the rear surrounds instead of the non-directional &lt;80Hz frequencies.</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Actually Bruce I think Dr. Floyd Toole may disagree with you. &nbsp;I had a personal conversation with him recently where he told me he was using 4 subwoofers in his home theater room which provided the flattest response in his room as opposed to just one centrally located sub with all other channels crossed over. &nbsp;When time permits I will post a few links to his articles on acoustics in our loudspeaker principle page. &nbsp;Hopefully somewhere down the road we can have him and other experts in the field participate in these type of discussions at Audioholics. &nbsp;I am working on it.

Gotta run back to the lab. &nbsp;
</font>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Gene,
Be sure and ask him the size of his room.

Yes, it is possible to tune a room (cancel room modes) with multiple subs, but it is a daunting task to accomplish and requires a thorough understanding of small room acoustics plus some quality measuring tools.</font>
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
<font color='#000000'>Bruce;

No argument there. &nbsp;I had quite a time balancing my large main speakers with my sub in an asymmetrical room such as mine. &nbsp;I could not eliminate all of the major suckouts without all three units producing bass.

Here is the major problem, lyou cant see it in my photo, but the right wall opens to my kitchen and so does the backwall above my entertainment center:

Reference System #1


In the future we may review the following system to see how a multi sub configuration at the source of the main channels helps to average out room response:
RBH T2 System

First my wife has to get over the heart attack she almost had when I told her I wanted to evaluate 7 1/2ft speakers &nbsp;
</font>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<font color='#0000FF'>In my 24ftx22ft room I have acheived great results with my three sub routine. The rear sub is more of a bass module, just to add ambience. It sounds great to me and those who come and listen to my system so in the end, thats all that matters.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>Gene,

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> In the future we may review the following system to see how a multi sub configuration at the source of the main channels helps to average out room response: RBH T2 System </td></tr></table>
How would you plan to determine the positioning of the 2 bass modules?  Would you just place them under each L&amp;R upper speaker module?  Which is typically not the best place for bass reproduction in most rooms.  

If you place them in other parts of the room, how will you determine their location?  By calculation? By measurements? Using what to measure their response?  By listening tests without any measurements?  

I'm interested in your methodology for doing this kind of a review.</font>
 
<font color='#000080'>I think we probably start by sending inverse tachyon pulses through the room and measure the harmonic phase distortion.</font>
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
hawke : <font color='#000000'>I think we probably start by sending inverse tachyon pulses through the room and measure the harmonic phase distortion.</font>
<font color='#0000FF'>This is going to be a really interesting test.</font>
 
G

Guest

Guest
<font color='#000000'>hawke,

Hopefiully you can provide more info. &nbsp;
</font>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Khellandros66

Khellandros66

Banned
<font color='#000000'>I recently lost my Yamaha YST-SW305 due to a lightning strike up my street.  I am thinking of getting two B&amp;W ASW300s or a Velodyne CHT-10.  Now would I benifit having two ASW300s over a single CHT-10?  If I get two ASW300s, I will leave my front channels set for large, and bass set to main, run the sub cables from the Front L/R preouts to the subs and set the crossover for 60Hz-70Hz. (My speakers go lower than 90Hz, actually in some instances like the T2 THX Optimode I have heard LF in the Definitive PM200s into the 35Hz range.)

Point is two ASW300s setup up as stated above or a CHT-10 with L/R set to small.

:0~

Bob</font>
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>
Khellandros66 : <font color='#000000'>I recently lost my Yamaha YST-SW305 due to a lightning strike up my street.  I am thinking of getting two B&amp;W ASW300s or a Velodyne CHT-10.  Now would I benifit having two ASW300s over a single CHT-10?  If I get two ASW300s, I will leave my front channels set for large, and bass set to main, run the sub cables from the Front L/R preouts to the subs and set the crossover for 60Hz-70Hz. (My speakers go lower than 90Hz, actually in some instances like the T2 THX Optimode I have heard LF in the Definitive PM200s into the 35Hz range.)

Point is two ASW300s setup up as stated above or a CHT-10 with L/R set to small.

:0~

Bob</font>
<font color='#0000FF'>All I can tell you is that you will have to experiment and see what suits your ears best. For me two same size YST-800 in the front connected to my DSP-AZ1 line out and one smaller YST-SW320 in the back has done a marvellous job. it did take couple of months setting to get them right but once it was all setup, there was no going back to the older single sub more.

Like I said before, all my speakers are set to LARGE.</font>
 
<font color='#000080'>I don't want to bash the VHT-10 - because for the price it is a decent sub - but you can do MUCH better (especially used). Velodynes are an excellent value once you hit the SPL series.

I've owned the CHT-12 and heard the CHT-10, and I would probably get the smaller SPL-800 (used) before purchasing either.</font>
 
Khellandros66

Khellandros66

Banned
<font color='#000000'>Hawke, Thanks for the input, I'll look and see what I can find, but recently found out that my Insurance caan possibly make a deal for me through Circuit City.

Plus what about two B&amp;W ASW300s?

:)~

Bob</font>
 
Yamahaluver

Yamahaluver

Audioholic General
<font color='#0000FF'>Bob,

Since you are in the market for a sub, try and give the Yamaha YST-SW800 and 1500 a careful audition with proper placement and settings. It will add another choice to your range of subs.</font>
 
<font color='#000080'>Maybe you could start with one and pocket the additional money? Insurance doesn't always make you buy the gear - usually, they cut you a check once you submit the replacement costs...

If it comes down to it, the CHT-10/12 is a fine sub, just not as tight as I'm (now) used to. Until I heard a better sub, I didn't know any better...</font>
 
Khellandros66

Khellandros66

Banned
<font color='#000000'>hawke,

Thats why I am also considering usin the money to get one B&amp;W ASW300, then adding a second later on regardlesss of necessity.

The ASW may not quite have the reach, but it is clean and tight. Though I have not listened to it with familiar demo material. &nbsp;I did however listen to the seismic charges on SW Episode II when Jengo is trying to kill Obi.

But I will wait and see what they can do for me at CC
Plus I'll listen to the CHT-10 too.

If I get a new job soon though I will definitely consider the B&amp;W ASW600 or Velodyne VLF-1012

:0~

Bob</font>
 
Khellandros66

Khellandros66

Banned
<font color='#000000'>Though I never really considered the new Yamaha YST-SW315. &nbsp;It has a 250w 10in sub, I am however skeptical as to whether or not this is dynamic or RMS power. &nbsp;What do you guys think?

:)~

Bob</font>
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top