used speaker purchase help

[mortonconst]

i blew all of my mid drivers in my BP7006s a few months ago. def tech sent me new ones and i replaced all of them. since then, i have been a bit "volume shy" which is difficult at times considering that my preference is loud. i have been looking at used speakers over the last month or so and i need some advice....

how much of a factor should the age of the speaker play even if it is still in good condition....speakers, foam/rubber etc...

i am going to look at a pair of carver AL 3's tonight. i have never owned ribbon speakers. what should i look for? are the carver AL 3's good??

 

[highfigh]

i blew all of my mid drivers in my BP7006s a few months ago. def tech sent me new ones and i replaced all of them. since then, i have been a bit "volume shy" which is difficult at times considering that my preference is loud. i have been looking at used speakers over the last month or so and i need some advice....

how much of a factor should the age of the speaker play even if it is still in good condition....speakers, foam/rubber etc...

i am going to look at a pair of carver AL 3's tonight. i have never owned ribbon speakers. what should i look for? are the carver AL 3's good??

If you blew all of your mids, you don't want ribbons- they don't handle abuse well.

What are you using for a receiver or amp?

 

[TLS Guy]

i blew all of my mid drivers in my BP7006s a few months ago. def tech sent me new ones and i replaced all of them. since then, i have been a bit "volume shy" which is difficult at times considering that my preference is loud. i have been looking at used speakers over the last month or so and i need some advice....

how much of a factor should the age of the speaker play even if it is still in good condition....speakers, foam/rubber etc...

i am going to look at a pair of carver AL 3's tonight. i have never owned ribbon speakers. what should i look for? are the carver AL 3's good??

If you blew def techs, you will blow the Carver's before you have time to blink. Those are not high spl speakers.

Now if you blew def techs, then you are playing at levels that, not might, but will do serious damage to your hearing.

If want want to continue down the road of hearing damage, then you need expensive pro high spl speakers and pro amplification to go with them.

It will cost you, and not just in hearings aids.

You can not, and should not, use domestic equipment in that fashion.

I'm not going to aid you in this ridiculous pursuit further.

 

[mortonconst]

below is my equipment set. in regards to volume levels...and hearing loss...i do not think that i am listening at "hearing loss" SPL levels...but i have not tested that because i do not know how. i have an spl meter that i use to calibrate from my listening position. is it as simple as placing the SPL meter on a tripod in my listening position and then playing music at the levels that i like it...and than getting an average reading??? i have tried that before...it is around 95SPL with spikes up to 110SPL. but i am sure that i am not testing it accurately. maybe one of you could tell me how to do it. if in fact, i am listening too loud...and ribbon speakers are not fit for my listening preference than so be it and thank you for the advice. if i just like it louder than most...based on equipment set, would the ribbon speakers be an improvement?


yamaha rxv 2065
emotiva xpa-5
def tech bp7006 front mains
klipsch RF7 center
dual emotiva ultra 10 subs
def tech uiw bpa surrounds

 

[TLS Guy]

below is my equipment set. in regards to volume levels...and hearing loss...i do not think that i am listening at "hearing loss" SPL levels...but i have not tested that because i do not know how. i have an spl meter that i use to calibrate from my listening position. is it as simple as placing the SPL meter on a tripod in my listening position and then playing music at the levels that i like it...and than getting an average reading??? i have tried that before...it is around 95SPL with spikes up to 110SPL. but i am sure that i am not testing it accurately. maybe one of you could tell me how to do it. if in fact, i am listening too loud...and ribbon speakers are not fit for my listening preference than so be it and thank you for the advice. if i just like it louder than most...based on equipment set, would the ribbon speakers be an improvement?


yamaha rxv 2065
emotiva xpa-5
def tech bp7006 front mains
klipsch RF7 center
dual emotiva ultra 10 subs
def tech uiw bpa surrounds

Yes, it is that simple. As I suspected you are listening far too loud. It will damage equipment and hearing.

Your average level should be below 85 db. 95 db average listening level will cause hearing damage after about an hours listening.

Peaks up to 110 db will cause damage if those levels occur for a duration of about 10 min in a 24 hr period.

Your levels will blow most domestic speakers and your ears.

Learn about noise induced hearing damage.

The fact you blew drivers testifies to your aberrant behavior.

Forget about ribbons, you will blow those fast.

Only robust domestic speakers can output 110 db at 1 meter, and certainly not those levels at the listening position. That is speaker abuse.

So, turn the music down!
Mark Carter MD

 

[mortonconst]

i am going to re-test my listening SPL levels tonight. there may be a chance that i am communicating ineffectively (or unintelligently) with regards to my listening levels.

first of all... i would like to put things in perspective...when i said "i" blew all of mids.... what i meant was that "my equipment" blew my mids. my nephew (17 years old) was at my house for the weekend and wanted to play his playstation on my system. i ran him through the do's and don'ts and left him to play while i was out. it was several days later that i listened to my system when i noticed that my mids were blown. now, keep in mind....at the time, i did not have my max level set so there is the possibility that my nephew could have turned it up any louder than i allowed him to. i have since set my max level to -10. when i asked him, he said that he "barley" had it turned up. he was playing call of duty....needless to say, he is not allowed to play unless i am there.

now in regards to 95 SPL with spikes at 105 SPL....the spikes come only during low end frequencies. it has been awhile since i did this test (but i am going to do it again tonight), while listening, the SPL meter was reading around 85 SPL. the spikes would come with the deep low end frequencies and the needle would bounce around 105 to 107. i took the average and came up with 95 SPL. now to me...i feel like i am getting the readings and communicating them incorrectly. i had thought that the audioholics web site was a place for education... not of insult and reprimand. i understand concern for ones safety and can appreciate that. but the chain of responses above offers little education (even though the questions are asked) but alot of insult and reprimand. i would like to think that i appreciate my speakers and respect my amplifier's capabilities. there are many personal interpretations of "loud" and then there are the medical definitions of loud. i am aware of the medical definitions of loud. when i listen to music "loud" (by my interpretation), it is during a particular part of a song or a particular scene in a movie. it is not sitting in my chair for 10 to 15 minutes or an hour at a time with constant ear piercing levels. that would be insane....

i am very interested in learning how to define what my system is capable of in regards to SPL meter levels, i am also interested in learning how to properly read and report what my "comfortable" listening SPL level is. i would also like to learn more about "reference" level... and many other things. i am hoping that the members hear at audioholics can help.

Sincerely,

John Morton

 

[TLS Guy]

i am going to re-test my listening SPL levels tonight. there may be a chance that i am communicating ineffectively (or unintelligently) with regards to my listening levels.

first of all... i would like to put things in perspective...when i said "i" blew all of mids.... what i meant was that "my equipment" blew my mids. my nephew (17 years old) was at my house for the weekend and wanted to play his playstation on my system. i ran him through the do's and don'ts and left him to play while i was out. it was several days later that i listened to my system when i noticed that my mids were blown. now, keep in mind....at the time, i did not have my max level set so there is the possibility that my nephew could have turned it up any louder than i allowed him to. i have since set my max level to -10. when i asked him, he said that he "barley" had it turned up. he was playing call of duty....needless to say, he is not allowed to play unless i am there.

now in regards to 95 SPL with spikes at 105 SPL....the spikes come only during low end frequencies. it has been awhile since i did this test (but i am going to do it again tonight), while listening, the SPL meter was reading around 85 SPL. the spikes would come with the deep low end frequencies and the needle would bounce around 105 to 107. i took the average and came up with 95 SPL. now to me...i feel like i am getting the readings and communicating them incorrectly. i had thought that the audioholics web site was a place for education... not of insult and reprimand. i understand concern for ones safety and can appreciate that. but the chain of responses above offers little education (even though the questions are asked) but alot of insult and reprimand. i would like to think that i appreciate my speakers and respect my amplifier's capabilities. there are many personal interpretations of "loud" and then there are the medical definitions of loud. i am aware of the medical definitions of loud. when i listen to music "loud" (by my interpretation), it is during a particular part of a song or a particular scene in a movie. it is not sitting in my chair for 10 to 15 minutes or an hour at a time with constant ear piercing levels. that would be insane....

i am very interested in learning how to define what my system is capable of in regards to SPL meter levels, i am also interested in learning how to properly read and report what my "comfortable" listening SPL level is. i would also like to learn more about "reference" level... and many other things. i am hoping that the members hear at audioholics can help.

Sincerely,

John Morton

Well now you have changed your story significantly.

So your 17 year old nephew blew the mids?

We can only reply to the information given.

However I still think your listening levels are on the high side.

I listened to the Poulenc Organ concerto last night at probably around concert volume. This is a block buster piece.

I grabbed my spl meter. Most of the time the meter read less than 70 db and often down to 50 or below. In the louder parts it was 85 to 90 db. On the loudest peaks just hitting 100 db briefly.

Now the next issue is that it takes are very powerful set of amplifiers to do what I did cleanly. I'm using a total of 1500 watts on the fronts.

A receiver doing that would have clipped. Clipping hazards speakers.

Now the next issue is the log db scale. For every 3db increase in level you have to double the amp power. So increasing level 10 db calls for a ten fold increase in power.

So unless you want to beef up your system considerably, at significant expense, I still think you need to lower your levels at tad.

If you meter is reading 85 db most of the time, then I think you are stressing it. Even lowering the volume to an average level around 80 db will lower the stress on your system considerably, and your ears will like it.

 

[mortonconst]

Well now you have changed your story significantly.

So your 17 year old nephew blew the mids?

We can only reply to the information given.

However I still think your listening levels are on the high side.

I listened to the Poulenc Organ concerto last night at probably around concert volume. This is a block buster piece.

I grabbed my spl meter. Most of the time the meter read less than 70 db and often down to 50 or below. In the louder parts it was 85 to 90 db. On the loudest peaks just hitting 100 db briefly.

Now the next issue is that it takes are very powerful set of amplifiers to do what I did cleanly. I'm using a total of 1500 watts on the fronts.

A receiver doing that would have clipped. Clipping hazards speakers.

Now the next issue is the log db scale. For every 3db increase in level you have to double the amp power. So increasing level 10 db calls for a ten fold increase in power.

So unless you want to beef up your system considerably, at significant expense, I still think you need to lower your levels at tad.

If you meter is reading 85 db most of the time, then I think you are stressing it. Even lowering the volume to an average level around 80 db will lower the stress on your system considerably, and your ears will like it.

ok...when i typed my original post, i had no idea that it would take the turn that it did...i was expecting it to stay along the lines of "what to look for when buying used speakers and thoughts about the carvers"....i gave more details about how they i think they got blown when this thread turned into an insult festival....thank you for providing me with the details as to how you read your SPL meter while listening to music...i will do the same tonight. i am hoping that i will find that my listening levels are less than 95SPL average...so based on what you described, would you say that your average listening SPL level would be 75 SPL?? that would be adding the lowest of 50 plus the highest of 100 and dividing by 2??? or am i still calculating wrong?? would be 70 SPL as you stated above that it was reading around 70SPL most of the time? would that be the average?

also, you said you were running 1500watts to the fronts? is that 1500watts to the front 2 speakers (750watts a piece) or is it a combined wattage including subs? just curious?

my emotiva xpa 5 is rated at 200watt X5 at 8ohms... (400 watts to the front channels, plus 200 watts to the center (i listen to music in 7 channel stereo with the surrounds turned all the way down))
my def tech bp7006's have built in 300 watt amps for the sub (600 watts combined in the front channels)
my emotiva ultra 10's are rated at 200watt RMS 300 watt max (400 watts combined to the front channels)

so i guess collectively, i have 1600 watts going to the front stage? am i adding that up correctly???

 

[TLS Guy]

ok...when i typed my original post, i had no idea that it would take the turn that it did...i was expecting it to stay along the lines of "what to look for when buying used speakers and thoughts about the carvers"....i gave more details about how they i think they got blown when this thread turned into an insult festival....thank you for providing me with the details as to how you read your SPL meter while listening to music...i will do the same tonight. i am hoping that i will find that my listening levels are less than 95SPL average...so based on what you described, would you say that your average listening SPL level would be 75 SPL?? that would be adding the lowest of 50 plus the highest of 100 and dividing by 2??? or am i still calculating wrong?? would be 70 SPL as you stated above that it was reading around 70SPL most of the time? would that be the average?

also, you said you were running 1500watts to the fronts? is that 1500watts to the front 2 speakers (750watts a piece) or is it a combined wattage including subs? just curious?

my emotiva xpa 5 is rated at 200watt X5 at 8ohms... (400 watts to the front channels, plus 200 watts to the center (i listen to music in 7 channel stereo with the surrounds turned all the way down))
my def tech bp7006's have built in 300 watt amps for the sub (600 watts combined in the front channels)
my emotiva ultra 10's are rated at 200watt RMS 300 watt max (400 watts combined to the front channels)

so i guess collectively, i have 1600 watts going to the front stage? am i adding that up correctly???

I make that 1200 watts. 400 to the mains, 200 to the center and 600 to the subs.

7 channel stereo is a bad idea. when listening to two channel music, either just use the left and right fronts, or use one of the algorithms, like Plx II music.

I have 750 watts on each left and right main, and 500 on the center. So that is 2 kw for the fronts. I have 100 watts on each surround and 400 on each center back, for a total of 2.8 kw.

I don't use a sub, as the front mains are true full range, the LFE channel is captured though. The mains use two active crossovers and one passive.

 

[lsiberian]

If you need more headroom. It isn't going to be cheap, but it is doable. I concur with TLS on this though. I don't want to promote abuse of equipment.

However I will say if you have 4k I can guide you to a setup which would easily meet your tastes.

 

[mortonconst]

I make that 1200 watts. 400 to the mains, 200 to the center and 600 to the subs.

7 channel stereo is a bad idea. when listening to two channel music, either just use the left and right fronts, or use one of the algorithms, like Plx II music.

I have 750 watts on each left and right main, and 500 on the center. So that is 2 kw for the fronts. I have 100 watts on each surround and 400 on each center back, for a total of 2.8 kw.

I don't use a sub, as the front mains are true full range, the LFE channel is captured though. The mains use two active crossovers and one passive.

you said you count 1200watts. you did not include 400watts to the emotiva subs...making 1600 total. if i add in my surrounds 2 @ 200watts plus rear surrounds 2 @ 130watts..(i run these direct off the rxv2065 (130watts x7)) grand total...2260watts

i have plenty of head room and amplification.

as i said earlier, i was going to take new SPL readings while listening to music...i tried a variety of songs most of which were rock and had too much low end so i settled on "dust in the wind" by Kansas. source was rhapsody. 2 channel stereo. line levels were as follows: front mains +8DB. sub 0.0DB. listening distance 11'. here are the results:

at -30db (volume) i was reading 70db on my SPL fairly consistently spikes to 75db
at -20db (volume) i was reading 80db on my SPL fairly consistently
with spikes to 85db
it was late so i did not venture any louder than that.

on other "rock" songs listening at -20db (volume) i was getting spikes as high as 90db+. these spike were only with low end frequency.

tonight i will start a little earlier and get readings at higher volume levels with the same "dust in the wind" song.

 

[TLS Guy]

you said you count 1200watts. you did not include 400watts to the emotiva subs...making 1600 total. if i add in my surrounds 2 @ 200watts plus rear surrounds 2 @ 130watts..(i run these direct off the rxv2065 (130watts x7)) grand total...2260watts

i have plenty of head room and amplification.

as i said earlier, i was going to take new SPL readings while listening to music...i tried a variety of songs most of which were rock and had too much low end so i settled on "dust in the wind" by Kansas. source was rhapsody. 2 channel stereo. line levels were as follows: front mains +8DB. sub 0.0DB. listening distance 11'. here are the results:

at -30db (volume) i was reading 70db on my SPL fairly consistently spikes to 75db
at -20db (volume) i was reading 80db on my SPL fairly consistently
with spikes to 85db
it was late so i did not venture any louder than that.

on other "rock" songs listening at -20db (volume) i was getting spikes as high as 90db+. these spike were only with low end frequency.

tonight i will start a little earlier and get readings at higher volume levels with the same "dust in the wind" song.

You have highlighted another problem.

You are playing highly compressed material with peaks only a little above average level.

This really blows speakers if you listen loud, as the speaker voice coils never get a chance to cool off.

You will have trouble with just about any rig you put together listening to "pop/rock" music with no dynamic range.

That is an industry problem and fortunately one we don't share in the classical world.

 

[mortonconst]

You have highlighted another problem.

You are playing highly compressed material with peaks only a little above average level.

This really blows speakers if you listen loud, as the speaker voice coils never get a chance to cool off.

You will have trouble with just about any rig you put together listening to "pop/rock" music with no dynamic range.

That is an industry problem and fortunately one we don't share in the classical world.

what would you recommend that i listen to provide SPL data on my system that you could relate too?

 

[TLS Guy]

what would you recommend that i listen to provide SPL data on my system that you could relate too?

I relate to what you have fine. I'm just warning you that if you play that type pf material loud, you will replace a lot of speakers. Highly compressed material has to be played at conservative listening levels.

Voice coils have to catch a break. However the idiots that do the mastering don't understand that.

 

[lsiberian]

on other "rock" songs listening at -20db (volume) i was getting spikes as high as 90db+. these spike were only with low end frequency.

tonight i will start a little earlier and get readings at higher volume levels with the same "dust in the wind" song.

I wouldn't go too far north of 20db because clipping will muddy up sound quality.

 

[lsiberian]

I relate to what you have fine. I'm just warning you that if you play that type pf material loud, you will replace a lot of speakers. Highly compressed material has to be played at conservative listening levels.

Voice coils have to catch a break. However the idiots that do the mastering don't understand that.

Problem is loudness is perceived as better. Even American Idol demonstrated this when loud singers were voted on, while the softer more controlled singers were kicked off. Music has shifted nearly completely to auto-tune and loudness it seems. Problem is our ears need a break too.

 

[LAB3]

I am DEAF............... 50 to 60 db is so quiet I need to read lips........ 61 now.
Way to many Zeplin concerts back in the day. 5.2 HT(small den) all Klipsch at 85db normal with special effects at 100/110db. Wife will make me turn down to 80/100 for a Bluray movie............MAX. She purchased the DB meter.
If I had know I would live to be 60 plus . well you know the saying.... Doc (TLguy)you would be shakin a finger at me, no helmet and fast old Triumph motorcycles back in th 1960's........... It's miracle I am still here.
I posted on Facebook.. your pic's of the custom HT/Music Room is a work of art. I showed my wife your pic's so she could see how little I spend on Music.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am DEAF............... 50 to 60 db is so quiet I need to read lips........ 61 now.
Way to many Zeplin concerts back in the day. 5.2 HT(small den) all Klipsch at 85db normal with special effects at 100/110db. Wife will make me turn down to 80/100 for a Bluray movie............MAX. She purchased the DB meter.
If I had know I would live to be 60 plus . well you know the saying.... Doc (TLguy)you would be shakin a finger at me, no helmet and fast old Triumph motorcycles back in th 1960's........... It's miracle I am still here.
I posted on Facebook.. your pic's of the custom HT/Music Room is a work of art. I showed my wife your pic's so she could see how little I spend on Music.

You must be a little deaf. Your wife is correct to put the bar up where she does.

I see you have a nice Revox A 77 Mk IV, with the Dolby B noise reduction. Those machines are quite rare. I have stocked up a pretty good stash of parts. I have to use an external Advent Dolby encoder/decoder.

I would not go so far as to call this room a work of art! However I'm a few years older than you and have been collecting all this gear since childhood, so my average yearly expenditure is quite modest.

The two worst extravagances were my original Revox and Brenell recorders, my microphones and mixing gear.

The other was putting the speaker system together when we remodeled the home.

I'm glad you enjoyed the pictures and that they put you in improved grace with your wife.