Urgent PSA (public service announcement) regarding value

BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Some people accused me today of calling certain ID speakers manufacturer as "rip-off".
I'm here to try to explain the difference between ripoff and "bad" value.

In simplest form - ripoff even by Wikipedia defined as excessive overcharging for the product, however more common usage in modern English is implying stealing tangible or intangible matter.

Here's an example : a $1000 power cord is undoubtedly a ripoff.
How about my dream speakers - Salk Soundscape 8 - are they are ripoff? Obviously not, but in same time absolutely terrible on perceived value. Lets compare them to Emptek towers - ss8 are 11 times more expensive. Are they 11 times better?
Ss8 are amazing speakers and i would love to be able to afford them one day and despite that I still consider them as bad value, they are not a ripoff.
Simply result of law of diminishing returns.
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
While it's true @billy_p, I did win my sub in a AH raffle (still huge thanks to Matt34 generosity)
However my point comparing value is not based on owning a free sub, but on specific set of criteria:
If both products perform VERY similarly, then we must judge other factors like features. Second product offers significantly more of them, very flexible to be configured according to owner preferences and to achieve best overall results in owner's room, even at expense of small hit on raw performance.

Combine above with fact that product b) cost a bit less - what do YOU think is better value?

I did my homework and decided on my very near future purchase will be from more established ID vendor - you could guess which one :p
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It's doubtful that most consumers ever think about what's required to manufacturer ANYTHING. Also, the number of units sold makes lower prices possible, so a one-off or limited production manufacturer who buys many components is at the mercy of the manufacturer of those components. If the components are discontinued, the design must be changed to allow using a suitable replacement and that takes time, resources and money. Also, more people involved in the manufacturing process costs more, just like more advanced robotics and other equipment. Fine furniture can be made in a basement shop, but not in huge quantities and not quickly. Then, there's the question of how something is finished- some people like to use specific materials but in order to manufacture products in fairly large numbers, the EPA mandates that it be done in a way that doesn't allow VOCs and other compounds to be released. That costs a lot of money.

How is the cost of conception, design, prototyping, testing/redesign or modifying quantified? Is it exact, or should someone just not consider it at all, to avoid being required to justify the cost of the first pairs, which may be limited as a way to avoid a high amount of financial loss?

And now, EMP is owned by RBH- I would bet that if Salk were to be bought, the prices could drop but I would also bet that EMP was purchased as a way to reap the rewards of their sales volume by RBH and to eliminate EMP as a competitor.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
It's doubtful that most consumers ever think about what's required to manufacturer ANYTHING. Also, the number of units sold makes lower prices possible, so a one-off or limited production manufacturer who buys many components is at the mercy of the manufacturer of those components. If the components are discontinued, the design must be changed to allow using a suitable replacement and that takes time, resources and money. Also, more people involved in the manufacturing process costs more, just like more advanced robotics and other equipment. Fine furniture can be made in a basement shop, but not in huge quantities and not quickly. Then, there's the question of how something is finished- some people like to use specific materials but in order to manufacture products in fairly large numbers, the EPA mandates that it be done in a way that doesn't allow VOCs and other compounds to be released. That costs a lot of money.

How is the cost of conception, design, prototyping, testing/redesign or modifying quantified? Is it exact, or should someone just not consider it at all, to avoid being required to justify the cost of the first pairs, which may be limited as a way to avoid a high amount of financial loss?

And now, EMP is owned by RBH- I would bet that if Salk were to be bought, the prices could drop but I would also bet that EMP was purchased as a way to reap the rewards of their sales volume by RBH and to eliminate EMP as a competitor.
I am curious - why would consumers even consider manufacturing cost? Without any doubt, the economy of scale COULD allow lower consumer prices - just look at Andew Jones Pioneer speakers (not the new Elite) - Best possible example I could possibly think of, other than mass produced low to mid end receivers. I

Every manufacturing business small or large has cost involved with R&D, materials, personnel, marketing (if any) etc... Based on their cost they decide on product prices. All of which is absolutely standard process.
My post was not questioning the manufacturer cost to produce an item - I honestly don't give a damn. In fact I would gladly buy a product if company is loosing money on it - it's a win for the consumer.

I question the end result price and product - I don't care how company A got there compared to company B. I don't support fair trade or similar notions - I highly doubt that coffee farmer in 3rd world county cares much about me.
In same logic, if company A is smaller (thus higher costs) and promotes locally assembled products - I see no reason to support them based JUST on these criteria. Neither of them absolutely guarantee a better product.

On unrelated note: I could be wrong, but I thought EMP Tek was not bough by RBH, but rather founded by them in order to sell products designed and priced for common folk and not to upset their dealer network.
The latter is the likely reason, while it's known fact (on forums) - EMPTek doesn't exactly shout from top of their lungs on the public website.

Lately accusation flying around and fan boys shouting on top of their lungs. Let me be very clear: I'm no body's fanboy. I base my purchases on value (see above). I don't always get it right - it's not always easy or clear , but I strive toward this goal anyhow.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I am curious - why would consumers even consider manufacturing cost? Without any doubt, the economy of scale COULD allow lower consumer prices - just look at Andew Jones Pioneer speakers (not the new Elite) - Best possible example I could possibly think of, other than mass produced low to mid end receivers. I

Every manufacturing business small or large has cost involved with R&D, materials, personnel, marketing (if any) etc... Based on their cost they decide on product prices. All of which is absolutely standard process.
My post was not questioning the manufacturer cost to produce an item - I honestly don't give a damn. In fact I would gladly buy a product if company is loosing money on it - it's a win for the consumer.

I question the end result price and product - I don't care how company A got there compared to company B. I don't support fair trade or similar notions - I highly doubt that coffee farmer in 3rd world county cares much about me.
In same logic, if company A is smaller (thus higher costs) and promotes locally assembled products - I see no reason to support them based JUST on these criteria. Neither of them absolutely guarantee a better product.

On unrelated note: I could be wrong, but I thought EMP Tek was not bough by RBH, but rather founded by them in order to sell products designed and priced for common folk and not to upset their dealer network.
The latter is the likely reason, while it's known fact (on forums) - EMPTek doesn't exactly shout from top of their lungs on the public website.

Lately accusation flying around and fan boys shouting on top of their lungs. Let me be very clear: I'm no body's fanboy. I base my purchases on value (see above). I don't always get it right - it's not always easy or clear , but I strive toward this goal anyhow.
"I honestly don't give a damn. In fact I would gladly buy a product if company is loosing money on it - it's a win for the consumer."

And then, you want them to support the products. That can't work. Well, I guess it could, if they have so much money the loss doesn't affect them in any way.

Re: RBH-EMP ownership- it's in the big, blue box near the bottom of the page-
http://store.emptek.com/index.php

What do you mean, that economy of scale COULD allow lower consumer prices? Of course it does! Are you aware that pioneer is/has been one of the largest speaker manufacturers in the world? TAD is well-known in pro audio, but not in consumer and this is where Andrew Jones has spent his time, until Pioneer had him design these speakers.

Value is perceived by the one who uses or buys the item, nothing more. Someone may genuinely think the price they paid has no bearing on their enjoyment and others might only use or buy the product if they were paid and even then, they'd complain they weren't paid enough.

As consumers, we don't like getting fleeced or having that thought in the back of our mind- it's a distraction. OTOH, some people like to have things made for them, so they can be the only one to have that item and they just shrug off the higher cost. If they want to do this, fine. If someone wants to opine that the thing was too expensive, also fine. However, it's none of the second person's business, really.

Looks like comments about someone's speakers resulted in them being all verklempt.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I didn't know regarding recent EMP/RBH relationship change. thx. I think it means EMP Tek product line would be discontinued, but not because of illuminating completion, but more like closing down an unprofitable (or not profitable enough) division. The product selection and availability was reducing down anyways in last couple of years. Then again, I'm only speculating here (educated guess at best)

I still stand still in my opinion re: Economy of scale manufacturing COULD lower prices, but they don't have to - Apple has highest profit margin on mobile devices, even before their walled garden at which they swipe another 30% of the top. Compare it to Android - yes - Google's app store has similar (or same) margin, but nothing prevents you from installing apps straight from developer or alternative app stores (like Amazon for example)

I 100% agree on your comments re: value - this is exactly what I mean by highlighting word perceived value several times, but I guess some folks can insult, but not good readers.

and yes, it did: between certain new forum member who loves a good arguments, but fails at some rather basic audio facts and overly "enthusiastic" speakers salesman - emotions were running high and accusations flying low.

I decided to express my options elsewhere (aka right here) and not get into such pointless arguments.
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I would like to add I don't commonly support the foundry of new consumer products. I could be construed as being part of the manufacturers' problem because I typically avoid buying new products. If I'm buying second hand they receive nothing from me directly.

Many people have the notion that there is value in buying new because you get a warranty with your product. While I would agree that a warranty does give you peace of mind, but I don't feel that it serves me well to spend twice as much money for that when I'm just as likely to have no problems with within a typical warranty period anyways.

Not withstanding I don't see the problem with anyone spending a lot of money on a bad value item if they know why they want it. I see a few threads daily that exemplify this.

Value is what we perceive it to be.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Not withstanding I don't see the problem with anyone spending a lot of money on a bad value item if they know why they want it. I see a few threads daily that exemplify this.

Value is what we perceive it to be.
Agree on both - as I said before - I think SS8 is bad value, yet i really want it :)

And again, very much agree on perceived value - said it before already 5 times minimum.

I also feel that providing my personal opinion regarding MY OWN perceived value, does NOT equals to recommendation, just a one person opinion. I have a feeling at at least one AH member :rolleyes: doesn't consider my opinion as a recommendation :D:p
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Agree on both - as I said before - I think SS8 is bad value, yet i really want it :)

And again, very much agree on perceived value - said it before already 5 times minimum.

I also feel that providing my personal opinion regarding MY OWN perceived value, does NOT equals to recommendation, just a one person opinion. I have a feeling at at least one AH member :rolleyes: doesn't consider my opinion as a recommendation :D:p
I really want a Ford GT, but it is a terrible value.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I didn't know regarding recent EMP/RBH relationship change. thx. I think it means EMP Tek product line would be discontinued, but not because of illuminating completion, but more like closing down an unprofitable (or not profitable enough) division. The product selection and availability was reducing down anyways in last couple of years. Then again, I'm only speculating here (educated guess at best)

I still stand still in my opinion re: Economy of scale manufacturing COULD lower prices, but they don't have to - Apple has highest profit margin on mobile devices, even before their walled garden at which they swipe another 30% of the top. Compare it to Android - yes - Google's app store has similar (or same) margin, but nothing prevents you from installing apps straight from developer or alternative app stores (like Amazon for example)

I 100% agree on your comments re: value - this is exactly what I mean by highlighting word perceived value several times, but I guess some folks can insult, but not good readers.

and yes, it did: between certain new forum member who loves a good arguments, but fails at some rather basic audio facts and overly "enthusiastic" speakers salesman - emotions were running high and accusations flying low.

I decided to express my options elsewhere (aka right here) and not get into such pointless arguments.
I inquired via e-mail to EMP about becoming a dealer- the reply stated that EMP is being rolled into the RBH lineup and that I should fill out the app to become an RBH dealer.

I wouldn't buy anything expensive online without trying it and I refuse to buy anything that requires subjective approval, like speakers, this way. If it's cheap/reasonable, I have on a couple of occasions and they did happen to be speakers but because I knew the designer's background, I thought it was pretty safe. Turns out, the gamble paid off- they're pretty good and the cost wasn't bad.

Having been in retail electronics for a long time, I have been through a lot of sales training. The tech training was usually pretty weak, unless it was a special session for a lot of local people or I had to travel. Sales training is full of "Sell what's in stock", These are the best XXXXXXXX because blah, blah, blah, beep, beep, beep..." and "if you present this as features/benefits vs price, you'll get them almost every time.....".........Gak! Mostly, it was a lot of BS from people who may know how to sell and fill out reports, but few of the reps actually know much about the products. Sales is about creating a new perception of something if the person has had a negative experience or if they have heard bad things about a product. Those sales often come back with a vengeance.

I left for quite a while because of that stuff but came back when I wanted info about Parasound and I have noticed that the bickering is still here, but some people have been banned. I went to AVS Forum, too- same stuff, many of the same people.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I learned my lesson, that sometimes the smart thing to do is simply walk away. Let others fight silly Internet wars.
As for online vs b&m purchase - i honestly feel that i would get better service with online company - case in point amazon. Never had an issue with them, which couldn't resolved with quick chat with CS rep
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Agree on both - as I said before - I think SS8 is bad value, yet i really want it :)

And again, very much agree on perceived value - said it before already 5 times minimum.

I also feel that providing my personal opinion regarding MY OWN perceived value, does NOT equals to recommendation, just a one person opinion. I have a feeling at at least one AH member :rolleyes: doesn't consider my opinion as a recommendation :D:p
I went to CEDIA in '05 and as we walked through the big hall among all of the vendors trying to get everyone's attention, I heard piano music and it was like the cartoons, where a smell passes under someone's nose, the person begins to float and the smell pulls them to the source. With all of the noise, it sounded amazing, from over 100'. I had never heard a system that created that kind of sound and at nearly $250K, it's not what most people would even consider- I think they made it for the sake of pushing the envelope and if someone buys it, great. If not, they can take it to CEDIA and CES, to show what's possible. If the technology trickles down, it will be a good thing for us because it was absolutely stunning. The cosmetics would be a large part of the cost, but they're also beautiful if someone likes piano black. They're the Steinway-Lyngdorf system, with the cabinets built/finished by Steinway Pianos.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
The cosmetics would be a large part of the cost, but they're also beautiful if someone likes piano black. They're the Steinway-Lyngdorf system, with the cabinets built/finished by Steinway Pianos.
"there is more aluminum in one loudspeaker than in an Audi A8. Each loudspeaker weighs 174 kg" o_O:eek::eek::eek::eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_Lyngdorf

If having troubles converting from normal to american scale - that's about 385 LBS per speaker!!!
How heavy are Gene's Status 8t speakers? - a light weight, at only 345 lbs :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I learned my lesson, that sometimes the smart thing to do is simply walk away. Let others fight silly Internet wars.
As for online vs b&m purchase - i honestly feel that i would get better service with online company - case in point amazon. Never had an issue with them, which couldn't resolved with quick chat with CS rep
Exactly! I got into it a bit with someone who I remember as being a lot more reasonable than they are now and I just let it go. It's not worth bothering with.


As a dealer/installer, it's obviously in my best interest to avoid conflicts with customers and the ones who seem to want to have a conflict make me want to get out. I did some work for my old guitar teacher- we have known each other for about 40 years and when I did the first work for him, I told him that I was giving a discount because of our past history. He then asked about me pre-wiring for his new AV system in the basement and we did a walk-through, to determine what he needed in terms of cabling, speakers, network, etc. I did a good amount of work and when it was time to be paid, he wanted more of a discount. He said he was willing to pay for the electrical parts (which I don't make much on) but he didn't want to pay so much for the labor. I explained that it's not just labor, it's experience, knowing how to do it the right way and to plan it out, it's my insurance, etc rather than someone stuffing a bunch of cables in a box and untangling it later.

I ended up firing him as a customer. He made that into a hellish nightmare. Some people can't be satisfied, though.

Amazon can make their policies because they're huge but I agree- they're very easy to work with. It's not a model that a B&M could employ, though- it would cost too much on a small scale.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
"there is more aluminum in one loudspeaker than in an Audi A8. Each loudspeaker weighs 174 kg" o_O:eek::eek::eek::eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinway_Lyngdorf

If having troubles converting from normal to american scale - that's about 385 LBS per speaker!!!
How heavy are Gene's Status 8t speakers? - a light weight, at only 345 lbs :)
They're really big, but you know how the sound of piano from speakers is different in its directionality and live a piano has sound coming from all directions? That- JBL had their Synthesis system, which runs closer to $275K and Pioneer's TAD had their flagship system, at around $225K and they couldn't touch these, IMO.
 

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