URGENT! Media Room HELP Needed

[beyondhelpin]

I am completely remodeling a house (40% tear down and adding a lot of square footage) which I am doing myself with a little extra help. I am working on it 7 days a week, when I am not at my 40 hour job. Leaves me very little time for research.
We started this poject last January moving out to a fith wheel.Winter is coming and again and momma is stressing bad about being spending another winter in the RV.
I have about 3 weeks to design and wire my media room. So I must figure out the best way and order all cables and equipment very soon. Sorry about just asking instead of doing proper research my self but my time is so limited.


Looking for advice on what cables to run, setup advice, and remote control advice. I want to run IR remotes from numerous locations.


MEDIA ROOM
2' x 2' with heavy duty slide out shelfs.

Equipment:

Direct HD dual tuner dvr
Direct HD box (1)
Direct HD box (2)
Amp 1 Have not purchased yet.
Amp 2 Denon 3802
Amp 3 Nakimachi
DVD Pioneer
Blue Ray
Antenna
Computer

Cable length
LIVING ROOM 1080P 55'
Amp 1
Direct Dual tuner dvr
DVD
Blue ray
Antenna
Computer (movies, pics, surfing)


GAMEROOM 720P 50'
Amp 3 (music only)
Direct 1
Direct 2


MASTER BEDROOM 720P 25'
Direct 1
Direct 2
Dvd
Antenna


BEDROOM 2 720P 65'
Direct 1
Direct 2
Antenna
DVD (By its self in Bed 2 closet)


BEDROOM 3 720P 65'
Direct 1
Direct 2
Antenna
DVD (Buy itself in Bed 3 closet)


GARAGE 480P 50'
Direct 1
Direct 2
Antenna


SHOP 480P 125'
Direct 1
Direct 2
Antenna


DECK 480P 35'
Direct 1
Direct 2
AMP 2 (music only)


Patio
Amp 2 (music only)

I want to control all locations with IR. RF will be too expensive with 8 remotes. Every thing has to be easy to control for wife and daughter and guest.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone might provide.

 

[bandphan]

I want to control all locations with IR. RF will be too expensive with 8 remotes. Every thing has to be easy to control for wife and daughter and guest.

Thanks in advance for any help anyone might provide.

Rf solutions wouldnt be as expensive as you might think. Not knowing which tvs and their capabilities is tuff to make recomedations. How many speakers for each location? Keypads for music only locations? A little more detailed info would help for some suggestions. Sounds like you have quite a project on your hands so take your time and dont rush

 

[highfigh]

Looking for advice on what cables to run, setup advice, and remote control advice. I want to run IR remotes from numerous locations.

IR will not work well outside. You want to use RF for this, or keypads. Zantech sells a system that you teach and it's totally hard wired, but can use IR. If you don't need to control more than a few sources for each zone, that will work well.

Leave more room behind the equipment in that 2'x2' space. That will be pretty cramped. It will fit, but will be a PITA to work in unless you dress everything well. If you can, design this so you have access from the rear. That way, you don't need to worry about flexing cables, not having enough or cables unplugging when you pull the shelves out. Working from the front is a ROYAL PITA.

LABEL YOUR CABLES WITH A LABEL MAKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep a legend in the equipment rack or room, framed and attached to the wall or door so it will never be lost.

TO be honest, I can't see any reason to not send HD video to all of the TVs. You can do that over Cat5e pretty easily and it's getting cheaper all the time. You can get baluns so you could connect with HDMI, Component, Composite, S-Video or just audio at both ends. 125' will be no problem this way. You may need to use an HDMI extender for the 55' 1080p run(s).

 

[beyondhelpin]

Just came in from staining the outside for a short break. It is not just the cost of RF. If you notice each extra bedroom has a dvd in their closets. The deck tv will be mounted in the deck and rise up with remote powered acctuators. It is IR. How do I control those items with RF. The tvs are IR also. The master bdr is a 42 pioneer elite. The living room tv is a 50 Samsung xxxxx450. Both are plasmas. It will be moved into the gameroom withen the year and replaced with a 60 to 65. The rest of the tvs will be cheaper 26 to 32 lcds and have not been purchased yet.

The media closet is already built with no more room avaliable. It is 2 foot by 2 foot. I am putting heavy duty drawer slides on shelfs to help with hook up. Every thing will be terminated in the walls of closets. I will then have 3' cables from wall to equipment to give slack to pull out shelfs.

Is there any reason to use cat6 instead of cat 5e? I read I should use RG6 with a solid copper core. Is there any truth to that. Each room will probally have multiple runs of each. Also thinking of running component cable to each room. This is because each tv only have so many of each hookups.

As we come into the end of remodel money is going to be very tight. I have to make good selections based on quality and cost. The house is a one story so things can be done later but it is so much easier with sheetrock gone.

Hand has stopped cramping so I had better get back to it! Will check back later.

Thanks guys for intrest

 

[Jack Hammer]

One thing I'd recomend you do is once you've run all you cabling take pictures of your cables and their full routing before you drywall. This can save you a lot of potential headache later if you need to know what ran where and with what.

Jack

 

[BMXTRIX]

The biggest things to do with no sheetrock is to get wiring in place. RF remotes usually can use either RF or IR and depending on your system, a combination can be the best way to go. Simply running raw CAT-5 networking cable, at about 60 bucks for 500 feet, can be all you really need.

You didn't really go over what you wanted to do with all the rooms and TVs and how you wanted to lay things out or what exactly your goals are.

That is, if you want to distribute HDTV to all the different displays from your head end you will need a Matrix switcher - at least component video, if not HDMI, and those run upwards of $2,500 or more for a 8x8 component video version. You aren't going to get HDTV by simply running one piece of COAX cable to the TV from the HD sat boxes.

So, you will need either a matrix switcher, or a distribution amplifier for each source. Via eBay you might be able to get some deals on the matrix, but getting a big matrix usually means you are going to be working with a serially controlled product, not a IR based model. Which means a decent control system.

I think there are a lot more questions to be answered by you about what your realistic goals are and what your realistic budget is.

Are you prepared to give up HDTV in all the rooms that don't have a DirecTV box in them?

Do you have some other idea of how you were going to get HD to those locations?

I personally use Crestron in my home for simplicity, and my family has no issues at all. But, I do think it's pricey for many and since I know how to program it, the setup is a bit easier. Yet, RF remotes from URC can all be programmed the same way and can do both local IR sources as well as the devices at the head end via RF, as well, there are some serial options available. Not as capable as Crestron, but not bad and a fair bit less expensive.

If you are looking to really get this together over the next few weeks and you are well behind the curve on engineering whole house distributed A/V systems, then you may really be struggling, and in for a shock on some of the prices involved with things - which your budget may not allow for.

 

[beyondhelpin]

My goals are to be able to play all the components listed in each room, with minimal learing curve for all users. The end user will only see a flat screen mounted in each room. It should also be able to perform its function if I change the supplier (Direct, Dish, cable ect).

My first post list all the components broken down into what I would like to play in each room. Each room also list the preferred resolution for that room. It also list the approx. cable length to that room.

I dont mind spending money on required components, but I need to spend my money wisely and keep economics in mind. I have not set an exact budget. I would prefer to stay under $2000 for the distribution system.

What I had in mind to do is to run each tv a constant signal from each listed component for that room and allow each tv to select what component to watch thru the use of the tv imputs. All rooms will have 2 Direct HD set top boxes and antenna to pick from. The 2 xtra bedrooms will have their own DVD player on a shelf in their own closets. The living room will have a dedicated DVR HD settop box. The BlueRay and computer will also only be for the living room.

The audio will be digital 5.1 for the living room . I do not have the amp for this room yet. My budget is roughly $1500 for this amp. The game room will use a Nakamichi reciever for stereo only with 2 8" inwall speakers and an unpowered Paradign sub. The deck and patio will have a Denon 3802 to share . I have 2 Paradign 8" out door speakers for the deck. I may also add a sub out there. I will buy speakers for the patio later. I would like to link the amps to play from one source. Such as Ipod Dock, CD, ect. I would like to do this by linking the living room amp to the other two amps.

I was planning to run HDMI and or component to most rooms requiring video. I have some concerns about running HDMI at length to the rooms. Maybe thru cat 5e? Each room will have at least 2 cat 5 (maybe more) and RG6 run to them. I figure I will need multiple ways to dilever signal to each room due to the number of specific inputs to each tv.

How many cat 5 does it take for each HDMI and component hookups? I am unsure how to split and deliver each signal to each room. The antenna will be spit and sent with a good powered splitter. My biggest concern is how to control all these components remotely.

I always take a picture of all things covered up. Such as plumbing electric sprinkler ect. It is a good idea that has came in handy more than once.

Only me and my wife will live there. I have a daughter in college who will be home in the summer. This is also a lake house so we will be having guest staying over regularly. So I do not have to have dedicated signals to each room.

That is my wants and setup. If you need more info let me know.

PS Thanks for all the imput you guys are providing.

 

[highfigh]

Just came in from staining the outside for a short break. It is not just the cost of RF. If you notice each extra bedroom has a dvd in their closets. The deck tv will be mounted in the deck and rise up with remote powered acctuators. It is IR. How do I control those items with RF. The tvs are IR also. The master bdr is a 42 pioneer elite. The living room tv is a 50 Samsung xxxxx450. Both are plasmas. It will be moved into the gameroom withen the year and replaced with a 60 to 65. The rest of the tvs will be cheaper 26 to 32 lcds and have not been purchased yet.

The media closet is already built with no more room avaliable. It is 2 foot by 2 foot. I am putting heavy duty drawer slides on shelfs to help with hook up. Every thing will be terminated in the walls of closets. I will then have 3' cables from wall to equipment to give slack to pull out shelfs.

Is there any reason to use cat6 instead of cat 5e? I read I should use RG6 with a solid copper core. Is there any truth to that. Each room will probally have multiple runs of each. Also thinking of running component cable to each room. This is because each tv only have so many of each hookups.

As we come into the end of remodel money is going to be very tight. I have to make good selections based on quality and cost. The house is a one story so things can be done later but it is so much easier with sheetrock gone.

Hand has stopped cramping so I had better get back to it! Will check back later.

Thanks guys for intrest

Cat5e should be fine. If you want to make future upgrades easier and can route through an attic or basement to the wall plates and equipment closet, use some kind of conduit, like orange Smurf tube. Copper center is more flexible and tends to compress the dielectric less than copper plated steel, in tight bends. Cabling has a minimum bend radius, which is 4x the diameter.

Any wall plates that have coax should have Cat5e, too. Look to the future as much as possible. Even if you don't set each TV location for component or HDMI, run at last one Cat5, so you can use some other type of video signal that someone decided to add at the last minute. HDMI using Cat5e and baluns needs one cable. If you haven't bought your cabling, look into buying "bundled" cabling, with 2 coax and 2 Cat5e together. It speeds up the runs, keeps you from having to deal with 4 separate cables that want to get tangled when you're not in the same room and adds protection. Just something to think about.

As long as you have your home runs to one location, you can reconfigure it later but as long as you run some redundant cables, you should be OK. If you end up using RS-232 later, you'll need another Cat5e, then you'll terminate that with regular RJ-45 ends and plug the end into a null modem adaptor at the device.

If you run speaker cabling, separate those from network, power and phone lines if they need to be parallel. No low voltage cabling should run parallel to power cabling. If you have lightning suppression, that is required to be no less than 16" from any other cabling. The cable TV, phone or satellite feeds are required to be grounded at the demarcation point, outside of the structure, to the meter conduit, the meter box or a ground spike. If it's not grounded there, as close to that point inside, to the breaker panel or a cold water supply pipe, before the meter. (Article 250 of the National Electrical Code)

Ditto on photgraphing everything. If you want, narrate over video, so you don't need to take so many notes.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Alright, if I understand things correctly, at your head end you have 2 HD DirecTV boxes which you wish to share to ALL the rooms (except the living room) with TVs.

This brings us back to the point I made earlier which is that you will need some way to switch components.

You can use a 1x8 HDMI splitter to send HDMI to the rooms:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10113&cs_id=1011301&p_id=5070&seq=1&format=2

You will likely want to use HDMI/CAT-5 transmitters. TWO pieces of CAT-5 per run. Preferably CAT-6 that you terminate with proper CAT-6 terminations...
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10105&cs_id=1010504&p_id=4065&seq=1&format=2

This is the LEAST expensive HDMI solution and will run you about $2,000 for a total of 2 sources to 8 rooms... 1080i max. resolution using these CAT-5 extenders.

This leaves you with zero dollars left over to even start setting up control.

To give you an idea: CONTROL:
MX-850 remote controls - 9 of them - would be about $1,000 via eBay (they never break).
RF-programmable base station - about $500.

So, you could have a simple to use, top quality RF/IR remote w/RS-232 capability for about $1,500 - and the ONLY learning curve would be for the programming. Every remote, in every room, would work the EXACT same way.

I will be honest and say that I think your budget needs to be closer to $5,000 or more for this to be done at all. I think $7,000 or more is realistic for HD video distribution to multiple HD devices. There are ways, such as I listed above, which will give you what you wanted, and I think they are VERY low cost solutions which will be RELIABLE. The remotes will offer decent flexibility, but not 'perfect control. You aren't going to get better really for less money. Control 4 or other control systems would work well, but will easily crush several thousand dollars.

I know I could provide 8 RF remotes and a Crestron system in the $3,000 range for control only. Once again, exceeding what you are setting as a budget right now.

What is the OTHER option?

Component video:

This is the traditional means for distribuing video, including HD video.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Extron-12x8-Crosspoint-Series-Switcher-RGBHV-Video_W0QQitemZ270313586461QQihZ017QQcategoryZ21169QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

That's $1,000 for up to 12 HD inputs, and up to 8 HD distinations using component video and analog (or digital coaxial) audio.

You would need ONE run of component video to each location, and one digital coax feed and one analog audio feed.

Despite your worries of control being the 'big' issue, I think that by far your big issue is determining exactly how you intend to get multiple HD sources located in an equipment rack throughout your home.

Control can be handled, most often, by running one piece of CAT-5 to the room for (maybe) hard wired control, and one wire to the TV/component area for IR repeaters/RS-232 control. A couple of wires covers control - but FAR more thought needs to be put in place for how to actually get things where they need to be reliably.

I have done what you are trying to do dozens of times, and I can promise you that a few pieces of CAT-5 is pretty good for ensuring you will have control, but the real expense and thought is the HD video distribution.

You are in a fairly good place with wiring - but you will need to decide now how you want to wire things up. HDMI or component. HDMI sounds great, but is PHENOMENALLY more expensive than component video.

How much more expensive to do HDMI the proper way (matrixed)?

http://cgi.ebay.com/8X8-HDMI-1-3-Matrix-switching-with-HDCP_W0QQitemZ120336923691QQihZ002QQcategoryZ73390QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

$6,500 for an 8x8 HDMI model - that's $5,500 more than the component version.

 

[highfigh]

Who's selling the MX-850 for $110? It lists at $329.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Who's selling the MX-850 for $110? It lists at $329.

I have bought about a dozen them off of eBay for that price. Every single one has been in mint/near mint condition - if not new. I have not had a single issue with a single remote I have purchased to this point...

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37.l1313&satitle=mx-850&category0=

 

[beyondhelpin]

That is correct on the sharing of the 2 direct boxes. I dont have to have HD in all rooms. Want it for sure in the living game and master. Every where else open. The hdmi splitter seems doable. Why do I need to run cat to hdmi, although I am planning to run 2 to 4 cat runs to all rooms. I will only have 4 rooms up and running right off the bat. The others will come in over the next year as I am replacing all tube tvs. The wires and remote need set up before sheet rock. Will set up living and master at move in. So all cost will not be incured right away.

How does the matrix switcher work. Are they remote controlled or do they need to be. Only need a few imputs and 8 outputs. I have seen these sell for a resonable price on ebay used. Just dont know how the work or operate.

For the remote all are not need at the start and they donot have to be the same. Did some research and it apperars software support is not very good unless a pro installs and sets it up. At the very least you have to buy them from an authrized dealer who allows you to access their account. Does this seem correct to you. RF seems pretty cool as long as the remotes do ir and rf. That way you contol the tv in the same room.

Sorry it took me so long to get back but the media room is one of halve a dozen thing I am working on.

Thanks for the help!!!

 

[highfigh]

Why do I need to run cat to hdmi, although I am planning to run 2 to 4 cat runs to all rooms. I will only have 4 rooms up and running right off the bat. The others will come in over the next year as I am replacing all tube tvs. The wires and remote need set up before sheet rock. Will set up living and master at move in. So all cost will not be incurred right away.

How does the matrix switcher work. Are they remote controlled or do they need to be. Only need a few inputs and 8 outputs. I have seen these sell for a reasonable price on ebay used. Just don't know how the work or operate.

RF seems pretty cool as long as the remotes do ir and rf. That way you control the tv in the same room.

Sorry it took me so long to get back but the media room is one of halve a dozen thing I am working on.

Thanks for the help!!!

Cat5e or Cat6 will allow HDMI if baluns are used. Think of them as a modem for the HD video signal and a single coax won't pass all of the signal in a way that high quality video will be the result.

As far as not needing HD in all rooms, think about the future. In Feb, standard analog TV will be history and the cabling needed will change if you don't want to be severely limited. At least two coax and one Cat5e or Cat6 will be needed, if for no other reason than for IR controllability (assuming that you don't go with RF right away).

Matrix switchers can operate with a remote control and that's the kind needed for best flexibility.

"For the remote all are not needed at the start and they do not have to be the same. Did some research and it appears software support is not very good unless a pro installs and sets it up. At the very least you have to buy them from an authorized dealer who allows you to access their account."

Software/firmware support is fine- what's expected vs how it was sold is where a lot of problems occur. A programmer will know how to set it up faster and with more functionality but an end-used can still do it. If the remote has a setup Wizard, it's pretty fast, regardless of the maker but some are more intuitive. I know people who just can't set up a remote and I know someone who probably has more sources in his system than anyone I can think of- he spent 1/2 hour programming his Harmony and now the whole family uses the system, which they hated before.

Go to a store and buy one. If it's just not going to work, return it but don't give up immediately.

As far as a "dealers' account", that's not how they should be set up and from this, I assume that you're referring to Harmony. Whenever I have programmed one (or more) for a customer, I set it up as their account. If something happens to me, they'd be SOL if I didn't. I have a record of the account and can access it, which makes it easy for those who won't ever try to program it. I can make the changes, they plug into the computer and open the account, click on 'Update Remote' and it's reprogrammed in a few minutes. These don't have to be purchased from an installer, unless it's a "Pro" model. Some URC models are only sold through integrators because the fine points of the layout are just too much for a lot of people and most aren't interested in knowing how to program them, anyway. Some URC are programmed on a computer but access to the web isn't needed, unless database access is needed for adding codes without an OEM remote or for firmware updates.

 

[beyondhelpin]

The URCs are the remotes I was referring to with the lack software support, especially updates. As far as Harmony, they have the best customer support of just about any company I have ever dealt with. My last setup was not whole house but very complicated. Only I could run it. The Harmony fixed all that. I have had 2 and I loved them. Wife and daughter love them also. An RF/IR remote seems the way to go for most rooms. Except for the Living Room they can be very basic RF/IR remotes.

Dont you need to 2 cat5e to make one run of HDMI? Then maybe one more for remote if IR?

Will the commercial matrix boxs I see used on ebay work.? I havent seen one with a remote though. I have seen them as low as $300. How do you select on the matrix box what imput you watch in each room?

 

[highfigh]

The URCs are the remotes I was referring to with the lack software support, especially updates. As far as Harmony, they have the best customer support of just about any company I have ever dealt with. My last setup was not whole house but very complicated. Only I could run it. The Harmony fixed all that. I have had 2 and I loved them. Wife and daughter love them also. An RF/IR remote seems the way to go for most rooms. Except for the Living Room they can be very basic RF/IR remotes.

Dont you need to 2 cat5e to make one run of HDMI? Then maybe one more for remote if IR?

Will the commercial matrix boxs I see used on ebay work.? I havent seen one with a remote though. I have seen them as low as $300. How do you select on the matrix box what imput you watch in each room?

Usually, the baluns only need one Cat5e but I would definitely recommend running a spare. They have a tendency to not be spare for long because a use is easy to find.

I don't buy equipment on ebay unless it's vintage, rare and/or for myself because I have distributors/suppliers. I just helped a friend do a job and we added a matrix that was close to $1000, but it was 4x8, IIRC. That one does use a remote, but a URC was programmed to operate it. Keye Digital was the brand and the signal was sent to the kitchen TV over Cat5e.

 

[BMXTRIX]

You can get a Key Digital component video matrix switch which should have IR control built in. The reason I recommended the Extron is that it offers far more functionality. Likewise, that's why I would lean towards URC remotes over Harmony. I think Harmony remotes are excellent for single room, non-logic basic macros. But, for a whole house distributed system, you need more to maintain reliability and consistent functionality.

Big items:
1. You do NOT need CAT-5 in the rooms for IR. You will be using the remote in your hand to send IR to the devices in the room.

2. You should be using an RF base station which can have antenna extensions. This way you get whole house coverage without purchasing a half dozen IR repeater systems.

3. URC offers an inexpensive system controller which include RS-232, power tracking, RF, etc. which can really help to control the system. You have to do the homework on this, but you can likely get the 'pro' software to program it, and it will take some time to learn how to use, but the final product will be far more robust and reliable than simple IR remotes in the room.

4. A matrix switcher... like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/8-8-SHINYBOW-COMPONENT-VIDEO-DIG-AUDIO-MATRIX-SWITCHER_W0QQitemZ130171362916QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#pic
...is IR controlled, but the Extron one I listed earlier can be controlled by the URC product directly, and is a fair bit less expensive for similar functionality and incredible quality. No IR built into it though, just serial control. Incredibly reliable though.

With a matrix switcher you can send all your HD sources to ANY TV in the house. So, with two HD DVR boxes, one Blu-ray player, and a component video computer source you can share those four sources with up to 8 different HD rooms. It is incredibly convenient, and gives every room the exact same functionality. Likewise, rooms that are close can share things like game systems (Wii/PS3/X360) which use wireless controllers... if those systems are tied into the matrix.

It's all about what level you want things to work at, but you can pick and choose HD locations and just tie a couple of sat boxes in that way, then modulate SDTV video to the other rooms... that would definitely be cheapest, but kind of negates the need to even owning a HDTV in those rooms which only have SDTV access. You will still need some IR/RF remotes, but likely could get away with Harmonys. It would be cheap, and likely run $1,000 or so to accomplish. But, it doesn't give you HD anywhere and everywhere in your home.

Personally, I went with component video matrixing in my home because of the cost related to HDMI at this time. I'm working to add HDMI in my family room only, which won't be overly expensive, but not for my whole house A/V distribution. Have no doubt though, $2,000 to cover half the rooms, may be a decent number - but I would avoid HDMI for a few more years for HD distribution.

 

[bandphan]

As far as Harmony, they have the best customer support of just about any company I have ever dealt with.

Isnt harmony ending live tech support after 60 days of inital purchase?