Upgrade for NHT Super 1

[bobm]

I currently have three NHT Super 1’s in my system for LCR which I mate with an ACI Titan. I would like to upgrade the speakers but keep my current configuration with 3 identical bookshelf speakers. My plan is to audition 3 different brands in my home. The NHT Classic 3’s are on my list and thought I would choose Ascend's Sierra and Aperion’s Verus Grand bookshelf. I was curious if anyone has any experience auditioning these speakers.
Thanks Bob

 

[3db]

I currently have three NHT Super 1’s in my system for LCR which I mate with an ACI Titan. I would like to upgrade the speakers but keep my current configuration with 3 identical bookshelf speakers. My plan is to audition 3 different brands in my home. The NHT Classic 3’s are on my list and thought I would choose Ascend's Sierra and Aperion’s Verus Grand bookshelf. I was curious if anyone has any experience auditioning these speakers.
Thanks Bob

I would seriously look at the PSB Mini.. Judging from the review, they are the new king of the booshelf speaker...

PSB Imagine Mini Loudspeakers

 

[kini]

I would seriously look at the PSB Mini.. Judging from the review, they are the new king of the booshelf speaker...

PSB Imagine Mini Loudspeakers

More like "a little better than one other $99 speaker". They seem to be quite nice for their size.

Home Theater reviewed them as well as the new RSL speakers. The RSLs outperformed the Minis and were called "reference grade" 5 stars....The minis didn't quite get there.

Gene

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I currently have three NHT Super 1’s in my system for LCR which I mate with an ACI Titan. I would like to upgrade the speakers but keep my current configuration with 3 identical bookshelf speakers. My plan is to audition 3 different brands in my home. The NHT Classic 3’s are on my list and thought I would choose Ascend's Sierra and Aperion’s Verus Grand bookshelf. I was curious if anyone has any experience auditioning these speakers.
Thanks Bob

I think you are on right path: NHT, Ascend and Aperion Verus are among my favorite speaker brands.
Regarding Ascend's - Probably Sierra's are out budget, but other Ascend's speakers are great value and definitely worth serious consideration.

I'd suggest to add Emptek E5Bi to this short list

Final choice will be yours of course, but you should consider the size of your room in speakers selection... big room needs bigger speakers...

 

[alphaiii]

More like "a little better than one other $99 speaker". They seem to be quite nice for their size.

Home Theater reviewed them as well as the new RSL speakers. The RSLs outperformed the Minis and were called "reference grade" 5 stars....The minis didn't quite get there.

Gene

Yet the PSB Imagine Mini measured much better than the RSL bookshelf in HT Mags' measurements...

 

[3db]

Yet the PSB Imagine Mini measured much better than the RSL bookshelf in HT Mags' measurements...

Agreed and I'll take measurements over subjective crap any day.

 

[alphaiii]

Agreed and I'll take measurements over subjective crap any day.

I realize that a FR plot only tells a part of the story, but I'm with you. I don't put much stock in a reviewer's opinion.

And the RSL measurements are... well, less than stellar, to put it nicely.

 

[kini]

Measurements are sterile. Made with a microphone not an ear. How a speaker sounds to the human ear in a listening environment means much more than how it "sounds" to a microphone.

This is the reason speakers should be demoed in the user's listening environment.

 

[3db]

Measurements are sterile. Made with a microphone not an ear. How a speaker sounds to the human ear in a listening environment means much more than how it "sounds" to a microphone.

This is the reason speakers should be demoed in the user's listening environment.

Yes I agree that speakers need to be auditioned to see if they fit the listener's ears. It is subjective. That being said, measurements play a very important role in that they describe how a speaker will generally perform in a room. However, with a frequency response as poor as the RSL, its very hard to integrate it into the room for an even frequency. Furthermore, great measuring speakers usually have excellent reviews, PSB as an example. What I find odd is that the RSL measurements do not support in anyway the great reviews it received which leads to me to think that the review is biased, skewed, or fits the reviewers ears the best. How do you know if they will fit your ears?

Based on measurements, the RSL is inferior to the PSB.

 

[alphaiii]

Measurements are sterile. Made with a microphone not an ear. How a speaker sounds to the human ear in a listening environment means much more than how it "sounds" to a microphone.

This is the reason speakers should be demoed in the user's listening environment.

I agree entirely with you about demoing speakers in one's own home and basing a decision on what fits one's own preferences/room the best...

But how a speaker sounds to some reviewer means NOTHING... It is entirely that person's opinion... What sounds like gold to one set of ears may sound like garbage to another.

At least measurements give you an objective view of how the speaker performs - independent of personal preferences and room interactions (for the most part in this case, although not entirely since they HT mag doesn't measure in an anechoic chamber).

My point is not to say that everyone will prefer the Imagine Mini over the RSL because the Mini measures better/flatter... but just that the RSL should not be touted as a better speaker just because the reviewer at HT Mag called the RSL, and not the Imagine Mini, "reference grade."

Now if you've heard both in the same room, and happen to prefer the RSL... that's great. I would in no way say your opinion is wrong. But I'd recognize it for what it is - an opinion.

 

[3db]

I agree entirely with you about demoing speakers in one's own home and basing a decision on what fits one's own preferences/room the best...

But how a speaker sounds to some reviewer means NOTHING... It is entirely that person's opinion... What sounds like gold to one set of ears may sound like garbage to another.

At least measurements give you an objective view of how the speaker performs - independent of personal preferences and room interactions (for the most part in this case, although not entirely since they HT mag doesn't measure in an anechoic chamber).

My point is not to say that everyone will prefer the Imagine Mini over the RSL because the Mini measures better/flatter... but just that the RSL should not be touted as a better speaker just because the reviewer at HT Mag called the RSL, and not the Imagine Mini, "reference grade."

Now if you've heard both in the same room, and happen to prefer the RSL... that's great. I would in no way say your opinion is wrong. But I'd recognize it for what it is - an opinion.

That's better said than what I had intended to say.

 

[alphaiii]

That's better said than what I had intended to say.

Thanks.

I should step back and rephrase something though... It's not that reviewers' opinions means nothing... Subjective reviews can be informative, or if nothing else, can at least be an entertaining read... but ultimately, they are opinions and should be treated as such.

 

[kini]

Yes I agree that speakers need to be auditioned to see if they fit the listener's ears. It is subjective. That being said, measurements play a very important role in that they describe how a speaker will generally perform in a room. However, with a frequency response as poor as the RSL, its very hard to integrate it into the room for an even frequency. Furthermore, great measuring speakers usually have excellent reviews, PSB as an example. What I find odd is that the RSL measurements do not support in anyway the great reviews it received which leads to me to think that the review is biased, skewed, or fits the reviewers ears the best. How do you know if they will fit your ears?

Based on measurements, the RSL is inferior to the PSB.

Funny then how Sound and Vision came to the same conclusion as Home Theater- 9.5 rating, recommended...

Other reviews of the speakers also make the same conclusion as to how they actually sound with material other than test tones.

If how a speaker responds to anechoic test tones was the sole 0r most important determining factor in choosing a speaker (as some are indicating) then no one would or should ever spend more than $300 for a pair of speakers.

The $300 refers to any number of Infinity Primus models that "test" better than the majority of speakers costing many, many times more.

Response to test tones tells next to nothing about how the midrange sounds, the details, warmth, cool, cold, voice, piano, guitar, etc....

And RSL offers a 30 day trial with shipping both ways. They seem pretty confident in how the user will perceive the speaker.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

"Response to test tones tells next to nothing about how the midrange sounds, the details, warmth, cool, cold, voice, piano, guitar, etc...."{

Well, then I sure have been wasting my time. I've found an excellent correlation between measurements and audible performance. But before I expend any more prose, could someone give me a link to the measurements that are at issue? You have to interpret measurements carefully--not all departures from the ideal are equally problematic. Thanks.

 

[zieglj01]

RSL, from HT Mag Labs
RSL 5.1 Theater Speaker System HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

RSL, from Sound And Vision
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/tested-rsl-speaker-systems-51-theater-system?page=0,3

PSB Imagine Mini, from Sound And Vision
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article/review-psb-speakers-imagine-mini-speaker-system?page=0,3

PSB Imagine Mini, from HT Mag Labs
http://www.hometheater.com/content/psb-imagine-mini-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures

 

[3db]

More detailed measurements for the PSB Mini can be found here.

NRC Measurements: PSB Imagine Mini Loudspeakers

 

[alphaiii]

If how a speaker responds to anechoic test tones was the sole 0r most important determining factor in choosing a speaker (as some are indicating) then no one would or should ever spend more than $300 for a pair of speakers.

I don't think anyone is saying frequency response measurements are the sole factor to consider when buying a speaker... I know I'm not, and I already stated just that:
"I realize that a FR plot only tells a part of the story..."
"I agree entirely with you about demoing speakers in one's own home and basing a decision on what fits one's own preferences/room the best."

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Thanks very much for all of the links. Just comparing the HTLab measurements, there's not much to choose between the two from 500 Hz on up. The dip in the
RSL's response below 500 Hz or so is probably baffle related. I would have to see the speakers to reach any conclusions on that. Small woofers themselves don't generally have inherent dips like that--it looks more like some kind of cancellation effect that would vary with listening distance. This is quite common in small monitors with little baffle area beneath the woofer. I've attached a plot I just took of a small 2-way, and you can see the same kind of effect.

The NRC measurements of the mini are certainly impressive, although the area around 1 kHz might seem a little edgy given the response above that point. The Harmonic distortion readings are pretty high in the lower midrange, but I would have to see how the RSL measures to make any comparisons. In any event, I don't think I would automatically conclude from any of the measurements that the mini sounds more accurate than the RSL. I would have to see how the dip below 700 Hz played out at a normal listening distance.

 

[3db]

Thanks very much for all of the links. Just comparing the HTLab measurements, there's not much to choose between the two from 500 Hz on up. The dip in the
RSL's response below 500 Hz or so is probably baffle related. I would have to see the speakers to reach any conclusions on that. Small woofers themselves don't generally have inherent dips like that--it looks more like some kind of cancellation effect that would vary with listening distance. This is quite common in small monitors with little baffle area beneath the woofer. I've attached a plot I just took of a small 2-way, and you can see the same kind of effect.

The NRC measurements of the mini are certainly impressive, although the area around 1 kHz might seem a little edgy given the response above that point. The Harmonic distortion readings are pretty high in the lower midrange, but I would have to see how the RSL measures to make any comparisons. In any event, I don't think I would automatically conclude from any of the measurements that the mini sounds more accurate than the RSL. I would have to see how the dip below 700 Hz played out at a normal listening distance.

I fail to understand your comments between 500Hz and up between the two where the mini clearly demonstrates a much tighter tolerance in frequency response between 500Hz and 2KHz compared to that of the RSL. Looking at the RSL, I would think that RSL's midrange would sound slightly recessed and as result the treble a little exagerated where as the response of Mini's through out that range are more closer together. I'm wondering if you prefer a dip in the 1KHz range. If so, that may be your personal preference. I'm just trying to understand your comments.

The distortion figures are centered around an SPL of 90db which is extremely loud. I can understand seeing peaks in that vicinity but sustained volumes at that level will surely promote accelerated hearing loss. Still, not a bad figure for such a small speaker such as the mini.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I fail to understand your comments between 500Hz and up between the two where the mini clearly demonstrates a much tighter tolerance in frequency response between 500Hz and 2KHz compared to that of the RSL. Looking at the RSL, I would think that RSL's midrange would sound slightly recessed and as result the treble a little exagerated where as the response of Mini's through out that range are more closer together. I'm wondering if you prefer a dip in the 1KHz range. If so, that may be your personal preference. I'm just trying to understand your comments.

The distortion figures are centered around an SPL of 90db which is extremely loud. I can understand seeing peaks in that vicinity but sustained volumes at that level will surely promote accelerated hearing loss. Still, not a bad figure for such a small speaker such as the mini.

I believe I qualified my comments about the distortion readings--I would have to see how both speakers measured. And I also explained my concerns about reading too much into the dip in the response of the RSL below 700 Hz. That can depend very much on the listening distance when baffle effects are at work, and I also stated that I would have to see the baffle configuration of both speakers. Even though I am a firm believer in the importance of frequency response measuements--and I don't know how else you would design a speaker with accuracy as a goal--there are certain regions where you have to be very careful to confirm with listening comparisons. Dips in the 500-700 Hz range are a prime example. They crop up all the time, and usually have no audible consequences, because they materialize only in the nearfield. Again--woofers almost never have an inherent dip in this region. It's baffle-related, and can change dramtically with listening distance depending on the wave lengths that are involved.