Ultra-low frequencies a waste of headroom? Discuss.

[MidnightSensi]

I don't really have an opinion formed, I was curious what you guys think.

In general, as we get lower in frequencies power consumption rises exponentially and driver excursion goes up.

What creates a more viseral impact for the same subwoofer, something that maybe goes into the subsonics but isn't as loud in the 30-60Hz range, or something that has a low frequency cut in the deep bass and therefore has more room to perform in the more audible 30-60Hz range.

Obviously this changes depending on subwoofer, room, power available, drivers/displacement/powerhandling available, maybe taste, movie type, music or movies, etc. etc. etc.

But, just as a general convo... What do you guys think?

 

[annunaki]

With a conventional sub driver design, I would agree.

With some of the newer 'super-woofer' type designs such as the W7 or TC Sounds LMS/Axis units, they are plenty capable of doing it all. In fact much of what allows them to move extremely far in a linear fashion allows them to perform better in the middle to upper bass frequencies as well.

Proper application with said driver capabilities give many movies a whole new feel, that unless you have experienced, you don't necessarily know you are missing. Knowing that, I do not feel that it is a waste whatsoever. Properly designed units really are not compromising anything.

 

[mike c]

my opinion:

you can solve the headroom loss in the 30-60hz range by adding more subs = you get both ultra low and low frequencies.

no matter how many fantastic 30-60hz subs you get, you will never have the ultra low content.

 

[Alex2507]

my opinion ... adding more subs

More subs?

Really? Can you do that, just add more ... ?

 

[ThA tRiXtA]

In my opinion, your system should be capable of playing the soundtrack of whatever you're watching or listening to with as much accuracy as you can afford.

If the sound mix of a movie calls for an explosion that dips down to 18 hertz and you watch your movies within 15 dB of reference level, and your current sub cannot reproduce frequencies less than 25 or even 30 Hz, one of a couple possibilities may happen:

- The sub will simply not even attempt to emit any of those frequencies below the roll off

- The sub will attempt to squeeze out those frequencies, and either damage itself immediately or make a lot of bad noises which cumulatively lead your sub(s) to an early grave

- The sub will poorly, inaccurately reproduce those frequencies with very little "oomph" and most likely very high distortion. While it is doing so, any other frequencies the sub is also being called upon will suffer as well.

Like Mike C said, you can supplement lost headroom with multiple subs. If cost was no issue to me (and unfortunately it is) I would have no less than four extremely capable (and also extremely expensive) subs all tuned to their lowest maximum extension possible. One sub outputting 15 hZ may not sound very authoritative, but when you have 4 of them, properly tuned, phased and setup it changes the whole ball game.

That's just my opinion, I prefer as much accuracy in reproducing the material I listen to as possible. As I referenced in my post, it seems in the home theater hobby, the more accuracy you ensure whether in accurate video displays or accurate high fidelity audio systems, it goes hand in hand with how much money you're willing to shell out.

That's why most of us do the best we can with the budgets we've got, no?

 

[MidnightSensi]

With some of the newer 'super-woofer' type designs such as the W7 or TC Sounds LMS/Axis units, they are plenty capable of doing it all. In fact much of what allows them to move extremely far in a linear fashion allows them to perform better in the middle to upper bass frequencies as well.

Proper application with said driver capabilities give many movies a whole new feel, that unless you have experienced, you don't necessarily know you are missing. Knowing that, I do not feel that it is a waste whatsoever. Properly designed units really are not compromising anything.

Nod, actually what got me pondering this is JLs website, reading through their support and suggested enclosures and such. It's car audio, so people are looking for more output and higher tunings, plus they are used for music rather than theater that a lot of us use subwoofers for and ask for sub-20 output for... it just made me interested to see what people thought.

Playing around with WinISD, it seems like a higher tuning gets you a lot of extra grunt, but I agree with mike and you that its difficult to explain that ear-warming feeling that true subwoofers provide.

Thanks for the opinions

 

[lsiberian]

I don't really have an opinion formed, I was curious what you guys think.

In general, as we get lower in frequencies power consumption rises exponentially and driver excursion goes up.

What creates a more viseral impact for the same subwoofer, something that maybe goes into the subsonics but isn't as loud in the 30-60Hz range, or something that has a low frequency cut in the deep bass and therefore has more room to perform in the more audible 30-60Hz range.

Obviously this changes depending on subwoofer, room, power available, drivers/displacement/powerhandling available, maybe taste, movie type, music or movies, etc. etc. etc.

But, just as a general convo... What do you guys think?

Annuk, said it well. Some Drivers can do it all.

I think in most cases sub 20hz is a little much, but certainly 20 to 30 are important for home theater. I mean I would love to have a Pair of ported AP builds, but they are so big I would have a new foot stool.

Honestly I think 30-60 is far more important for a system. Most of us will end up listening to music more if we have the system for it.

But with a good design neither is sacrificed too much.

 

[just-some-guy]

ok. so. just how much subsonic info is there on soudtracks these days ? (rap, not included)
do directors, sounds mixers (or whatever they are called) mix in subsonic info ?
or is it just a by product ?

 

[mike c]

ok. so. just how much subsonic info is there on soudtracks these days ? (rap, not included)
do directors, sounds mixers (or whatever they are called) mix in subsonic info ?
or is it just a by product ?

i remember how funny car audio bass CD's keep harping "low bass" "subsonic" etc. ...

no rap music has subsonic content. most only have midbass 30hz and up and mostly hanging around in the 100hz range.

movies do tons of them. (20hz and below)

 

[jamie2112]

I like subs more is better

 

[Pyrrho]

I don't really have an opinion formed, I was curious what you guys think.

In general, as we get lower in frequencies power consumption rises exponentially and driver excursion goes up.

What creates a more viseral impact for the same subwoofer, something that maybe goes into the subsonics but isn't as loud in the 30-60Hz range, or something that has a low frequency cut in the deep bass and therefore has more room to perform in the more audible 30-60Hz range.

Obviously this changes depending on subwoofer, room, power available, drivers/displacement/powerhandling available, maybe taste, movie type, music or movies, etc. etc. etc.

But, just as a general convo... What do you guys think?

I think in most cases, one will want to filter out the very deep bass. If one has purchased a powered subwoofer, it is likely that they have already done that for you, to keep it from trying to do frequencies lower than its useful range.

In my case, I have a pair of SVS CS-Ultra subwoofers (they are the old version, unpowered [so one uses a separate power amp for them], of the best from SVS), and I use an EQ that filters out things below 10 Hz, as they are not effective for such low frequencies, and it simply will be adding distortion and losing headroom to have them try to do such things. If I wanted maximum volume, I could filter out a bit higher up, but they play quite loud in my room as things are, and I get reasonably deep bass this way.

I have tried them without filtering out below 10 Hz, and then I can bottom them out when playing the right things loud. So it matters.

It would take an incredible subwoofer to have useful bass below 10 Hz. And I am simply not willing to pay for it, and will make due with my pair of Ultras.

Basically, one has to balance the capabilities of what one can afford with what one wants it to do, and in virtually all cases, this will involve giving up on the very deepest frequencies.

Before I got the Ultras, which I have set flat to around 15 Hz (they have variable tuning for the low end, which is a separate thing from my EQ removing bass below 10 Hz), I had a respected subwoofer that was rated down to 28 Hz @ -3dB. From my measurements, that seems to have been a fairly accurate rating. For playing pipe organ music with deep bass, and for many DVDs with explosions, getting a solid 10 Hz lower makes a considerable difference. But for most music, it isn't that helpful. But in that case, when my Ultras are not called upon to reproduce very deep bass, they can play very loud without audibly distorting, so having them still is a good thing.

In most cases, I think it is better to have one or two very good subwoofers, instead of a bunch of low end units that add up to the same cost. I recommend saving one's money for a good one and then one can be done with it, instead of buying one slightly better than what one already has, and then replacing it with something slightly better, and doing that over and over, which will waste a lot of money. But I suppose people are too impatient and unwilling to save up enough for something significantly better than what they already have.