Two subs for stereo music - in parallel or separate?

J

josko

Audioholic
So it looks like I'm getting two SVS PB-12 or 13 subs to use with my B&W 803d speakers and 'classical stereo setup. The preamp (Levinson 32) doesn't have an LFE output. I'm tempted to wire each sub separately to a left or right signal, but wonder whether it makes more sense to hook each one to both preamp outputs and connect them in parallel.
If I do the latter, I think I should equalize the room with bioth of them hooked up, but if I wire them separately, do I equalize one at a time or both?
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
So it looks like I'm getting two SVS PB-12 or 13 subs to use with my B&W 803d speakers and 'classical stereo setup. The preamp (Levinson 32) doesn't have an LFE output. I'm tempted to wire each sub separately to a left or right signal, but wonder whether it makes more sense to hook each one to both preamp outputs and connect them in parallel.
If I do the latter, I think I should equalize the room with bioth of them hooked up, but if I wire them separately, do I equalize one at a time or both?
Pick up a unit like the DCX2496 from Behringer to handle the crossover duties and eq. Integration will be easier this way for stereo subs ran full range from the pre.
 
J

josko

Audioholic
As I read the SVS power amp manual, it seems like it's all set up to take full-range inputs from a stereo preamp. I can run L to one, R to other, or both to either and then daisy-chain the other. What would i be gaining by inserting the DCX2496 into the path? I'm already planning to use the Behringer feedback destroyer between the preamp and subs.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
The FBD will be fine, the DCX will give the flexibility to run your mains through it also for precision crossover control. Just a thought:)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The FBD will be fine, the DCX will give the flexibility to run your mains through it also for precision crossover control. Just a thought:)
I think the digital processing of the FBD will cause a slight delay in the signal to the subs. If true, you may have to go with the DCX2496 to match the delay on the mains.
I'm assuming your pre/pro won't allow you to set the delay to the mains (separately of the output feeding the subs)
If you plan to use a digital EQ, I think the DCX is your answer. but if you want to stay analog, I'm not sure what is the best way to hook up the subs.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I think the digital processing of the FBD will cause a slight delay in the signal to the subs. If true, you may have to go with the DCX2496 to match the delay on the mains.
I'm assuming your pre/pro won't allow you to set the delay to the mains (separately of the output feeding the subs)
If you plan to use a digital EQ, I think the DCX is your answer. but if you want to stay analog, I'm not sure what is the best way to hook up the subs.
I'm sure that the DCX is the way to go, especially with stereo subs. If placement is room dependent I think the FBD will work fine. The only thing I do not like about the DCX is having to do the manual input of the filters with REW. Other than that, I was extremely happy with the DCXs. If willing to go further, there is an ARC plugin that can be used with ProTools and Adobe Audition that can be quite promising, but will require a great soundcard and a computer setup. Active correction is certainly the best way to go.


One thing to OP I didn't note, I'd seriously consider the dual Epik Empires over the ported SVSs. JMHO
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
So it looks like I'm getting two SVS PB-12 or 13 subs to use with my B&W 803d speakers and 'classical stereo setup. The preamp (Levinson 32) doesn't have an LFE output. I'm tempted to wire each sub separately to a left or right signal, but wonder whether it makes more sense to hook each one to both preamp outputs and connect them in parallel.
If I do the latter, I think I should equalize the room with bioth of them hooked up, but if I wire them separately, do I equalize one at a time or both?
If you connect your pre amp outputs in parallel, everything will be mono. The subs should be mono and not stereo. You get far less room problems with subs in mono.

So you need a buffer amps between your preamp and subs. If the Behringer is stereo input then you can sum the outputs from the Behringer.
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
If you connect your pre amp outputs in parallel, everything will be mono. The subs should be mono and not stereo. You get far less room problems with subs in mono.
I'm curious about this. Chris (WmAx) always preached stereo subs for music because he claimed that mono output that's been summed (in a receiver's crossover) from a source that is mixed for stereo causes cancellations within the sub. That mono subwoofer output is only acceptable when used with a source mixed for a separate subwoofer channel. I may be over simplifying this or maybe totally misunderstood him, but since I hold your opinion in high regard this seems like a perfect chance to pick your brain and learn something. Has anybody tested the hypothesis?
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I'm curious about this. Chris (WmAx) always preached stereo subs for music because he claimed that mono output that's been summed (in a receiver's crossover) from a source that is mixed for stereo causes cancellations within the sub. That mono subwoofer output is only acceptable when used with a source mixed for a separate subwoofer channel. I may be over simplifying this or maybe totally misunderstood him, but since I hold your opinion in high regard this seems like a perfect chance to pick your brain and learn something. Has anybody tested the hypothesis?
I think In the OPs case its slightly different. He has a stereo pre amp and will be using full range outputs:)
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I think In the OPs case its slightly different. He has a stereo pre amp and will be using full range outputs:)
Unless I'm missing something it boils down almost the same thing. What bothers me is "hook each one to both preamp outputs and connect them in parallel" which makes me think it could cause the whole system to be mono. But again maybe I'm missing something.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm curious about this. Chris (WmAx) always preached stereo subs for music because he claimed that mono output that's been summed (in a receiver's crossover) from a source that is mixed for stereo causes cancellations within the sub. That mono subwoofer output is only acceptable when used with a source mixed for a separate subwoofer channel. I may be over simplifying this or maybe totally misunderstood him, but since I hold your opinion in high regard this seems like a perfect chance to pick your brain and learn something. Has anybody tested the hypothesis?
You would make me have to explain something complicated after a nice night out with friends at Paul's French restaurant!

First lets consider the recording process.

There are two schools of thought: - Intensity (coincident microphones) and phase difference (spaced) microphones. The more usual these days is phase difference stereo. I'm one of the few who still maintains that good intensity stereo with good speakers with minimal phase aberration gives the most realistic two channel experience.

Now the bass phase difference in a coincident technique is going to be minimal, but in the spaced phase difference technique it is going to be considerable.

Now lets look at how the LFE channel is derived.

THX specifications on the recording end state that the LFE channel must contain minimal information above 125 Hz. This makes sense because at that point you are getting to frequencies that are useful for localization.

The problem is how you get there. Because of puny satellites that people want to use because they can't control their wives, girl friends, other partners and the dreaded interior designers, frequencies to around 100 Hz need to be on the LFE channel.

So the THX encoder for movies takes the mono output buffered from stereo from the mixing console and applies a 48 db per octave slope, starting about 90 Hz to get the LFE channel down 24 db by 125 Hz. Now this steep filter causes horrid artifacts from the huge phase shift of the 48 db per octave low pass filter.

Now this system is not always used even in movies, and just about never for music productions with an LFE channel. The encoder low pass filter is switched off and a gentler low pass filter 24 db per octave at 60 Hz or 12 db per octave at 30 Hz is applied before the encoder.

Now it is strange, but few audio enthusiast or audiophiles ever give a thought to the recording process. They should, because it has a big impact on how things are set up.

Now the big point is that bass phase cancellations have already taken place in the creation of the LFE channel, because the channel is already down mixed to mono. The stereo channel and any other channels still contain all the phase differences of the mix for that channel.

Now when you set your receiver to output a bass signal to your sub, you have the same situation as an engineer who does not use the 48db low pass filter of the THX encoder.

So you still need to keep the LFE output down by 24 db at 125 Hz.

The receiver or pre pro creates the LFE output from a source with no dedicated LFE channel by sending the channel outputs to buffer amps and then combining them to mono. Such phase cancellations as will occur will happen at that stage. A low pass 24 db per octave filter is then applied. To have it 24 db down by 125 Hz means setting the crossover no higher than 60 Hz.

The phase shift of this low pass filter will be a delay of 180 degrees at crossover frequency. Any speakers set to small will be ahead 90 degrees at crossover frequency, as the receiver/pre pro high pass filters are 12 db per octave second order. The total phase shift is 270 degrees. That is the electrical component anyway. There are acoustic phase shifts especially related to sub ports and speaker ports. So it is a real witches brew.

The witches brew is much worse if we have subs in locations around the room with different phase from the recording microphones. The phase additions and cancellations will then take place in free space. There is evidence that allowing this to happen magnifies room peaks and nulls and is not a good thing.

There is consensus that spaced subs not part of an integrated speaker system, like my speakers for instance, should all be fed the same signal, and that means mono with no significant output above 125 Hz.

So the OP needs to feed his subs a mono signal summed from two buffer amps connected to his preamp outputs and then a 24 db per octave low pass filter applied no higher than 60 Hz. Since he will presumably not be using a high pass filter, his mains should have an F3 no higher than 35 Hz for best results. This is no different from using a pre/pro or receiver with the speakers set to large and a crossover frequency of 60 Hz. That is why WmAx view does not make sense.

Now if a speaker system is integrated like mine, then you can send a stereo signal to the bass division and I do when playing SACDs or when listening to two channel in pure direct mode. But when the LFE output is not used my low pass filter is 200 Hz first order transitioning to second order.

The above is just one of the many reasons I designed my system the way I did.

I realize that in this post you have made me confront some common misconceptions about adding subs to speakers. The biggest misconception is that using bookshelves with high F3 is made up for by a sub, and that larger more capable speakers with F3 down below 40 Hz are not necessary. I think you can see from the above that for optimal results that is not true.

The other myth is that the LFE signal from different recordings have the same characteristics. That is certainly not true.
 
Last edited:
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
Thank you very much. That clears up a lot. I'll have to read it at least a couple of more times to fully digest it but it makes sense. I'm just getting slow in my old age.
 
J

josko

Audioholic
Thank you, indeed. I guess we're really talking about crossover design, and I now understand why the Behringer crossover was recommended. The 803D is darn flat down to 35hz and drops off relatively slowly to 25 Hz. The 801D has the same midrange and a 15" built-in low freq driver. So I suppose the goal is to recreate the B&W crossover on the 801D.
The SVS amp provides two preamp inputs and two preamp outputs. As I understand it, the preamp outputs undergo high-pass filtering; the sub sums the preamp inputs and low-pass filters them. So far, so good, if the HPF and LPF points are picked reasonably.
The problem is that my beloved 803D's have now gone through the SVS digital HPF, and we've lost control of phase near cutoff that the Levinson separates try so hard to maintain. Also, I can't get the BFD into the loop.
So, now, suppose I drive the 803D's straight from the preamp, and 'tee off' to the sub via the BFD. That avoids mangling midrange phase at the expense of added signal and potential interference below the HPF point. I suppose I could set the LPF to minimize subwoofer level above 35 Hz and/or run the 803's through the Behringer HPF - are they any better than SVS HPF's?
I wonder how the 801D crossover does it?

Here's a point of confusion for me: I'm hearing that the 801D would work better if the low-freq. drivers were physically separated and driven in parallel by the summed right and left signal. Wouldn't they design the speaker that way if it improved performance?

I guess the immediate question is how to recreate the crossover. Am I better off running the midrange signal through a digital filter, or leaving the 803D signal analog and dealing with all 4 speakers contributing in the 30-40 Hz band?
Finally, am I better off relying on the SVS filters or buying the Behringer to implement the crossover? (I guess I have to buy the Behringer crossover if I want to use the behringer Feedback destroyer.)

Thank you for reading this mound of confusion.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
Here's a point of confusion for me: I'm hearing that the 801D would work better if the low-freq. drivers were physically separated and driven in parallel by the summed right and left signal. Wouldn't they design the speaker that way if it improved performance?
You'd loose stereo bass.

Classic worst-case scenerio. Someone records an organ note in stereo at (say) 35Hz, and the note is recorded 180 degrees out-of-phase from left to right. When those two signals are combined, they will cancel and no note will be played. Even without such a precise phase problem occuring, lesser types of comb filtering and the like are going to be common combining stereo bass into mono.

I admit I glossed, but it seems to me the setup you are looking for is.

Pre-amp-out to external crossover.
External CrossOver-LF to amp to sub.
External CrossOver-HF to amp to 803.

Is there somthing I'm missing on why you would not use the above?

Also, I saw some mention of a feedback destroyer. Is there a mic in the mix here somewhere? Perhaps I should read the thread.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
So it looks like I'm getting two SVS PB-12 or 13 subs to use with my B&W 803d speakers and 'classical stereo setup. The preamp (Levinson 32) doesn't have an LFE output. I'm tempted to wire each sub separately to a left or right signal, but wonder whether it makes more sense to hook each one to both preamp outputs and connect them in parallel.
If I do the latter, I think I should equalize the room with bioth of them hooked up, but if I wire them separately, do I equalize one at a time or both?
I think you've got a decision to make.
You can stay exclusively in the analog domain by using something like the Elemental design eQ.2. You would also need something like the Chesky CD and a RadioShack SPL meter for the set-up.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_123&products_id=657
The eQ.2 would provide the summing of the L and R channels as TLS Guy recommends. If you locate your subs at the same distance as your speakers, there should be no phase concerns.
The drawbacks are it only gives you 2 bands to EQ (which is typically enough to tame the serious room/bass issues), it probably won't maintain the phase quite so well as your Levinson separates, and there is no bass management of the mains (but I don't know if you'd have reason to care about that with your full range speakers).

The other option is to go digital.
It looks like the new SVS plus series incorporate a 2 band PEQ as well as phase control and high pass filter for your mains.
If you feel 2 bands is not enough or especially if you have some room issues in the upper frequencies, the DCX will give you all of the EQ control you could ask for.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
You'd loose stereo bass.

Classic worst-case scenerio. Someone records an organ note in stereo at (say) 35Hz, and the note is recorded 180 degrees out-of-phase from left to right. When those two signals are combined, they will cancel and no note will be played. Even without such a precise phase problem occuring, lesser types of comb filtering and the like are going to be common combining stereo bass into mono.

I admit I glossed, but it seems to me the setup you are looking for is.

Pre-amp-out to external crossover.
External CrossOver-LF to amp to sub.
External CrossOver-HF to amp to 803.

Is there somthing I'm missing on why you would not use the above?

Also, I saw some mention of a feedback destroyer. Is there a mic in the mix here somewhere? Perhaps I should read the thread.
That effect is going to happen anyway with phase difference stereo. Much better it happen in the signal bath than in the room where there are problems already, in the below 80 Hz range.

There are no ill effects of using the bass management of a receiver pre/pro to drive a sub from sources without a LFE channel that I know of.

Even the 0.2 receivers are mono, it is just that you have two buffered outputs for the two subs rather than using an unbuffered Y-cable. The reason they are mono outputs are as I stated in my post.
 
J

josko

Audioholic
You'd loose stereo bass.
Well, yeah, that's what this thread is really asking about. Is there such a thing as stereo bass and is it worth having? It looks like there's a divergence of opinion on that matter.

I have the option of using he crossover in the SVS sub, an extenal (Behringer) crossover, and of running speaker lines straight and the sub through the SVS LPF. if I use the SVS crossover, I think I loose the ability to use REW and the Behringer FD to equalize the room.

And I'd use the BFD as a parametric filter - it's got two channels of rather nice, adjustable filters that work with the REW software.

TLS Guy, if the B&W 800d (for instance) would sound better with the mid/high ranges physically separated from the two mono low range subs, why wouldn't they set up the speakers that way? They certainly don't mention bi-amping and driving the low freq. drivers with the same mono signal.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thank you, indeed. I guess we're really talking about crossover design, and I now understand why the Behringer crossover was recommended. The 803D is darn flat down to 35hz and drops off relatively slowly to 25 Hz. The 801D has the same midrange and a 15" built-in low freq driver. So I suppose the goal is to recreate the B&W crossover on the 801D.
The SVS amp provides two preamp inputs and two preamp outputs. As I understand it, the preamp outputs undergo high-pass filtering; the sub sums the preamp inputs and low-pass filters them. So far, so good, if the HPF and LPF points are picked reasonably.
The problem is that my beloved 803D's have now gone through the SVS digital HPF, and we've lost control of phase near cutoff that the Levinson separates try so hard to maintain. Also, I can't get the BFD into the loop.
So, now, suppose I drive the 803D's straight from the preamp, and 'tee off' to the sub via the BFD. That avoids mangling midrange phase at the expense of added signal and potential interference below the HPF point. I suppose I could set the LPF to minimize subwoofer level above 35 Hz and/or run the 803's through the Behringer HPF - are they any better than SVS HPF's?
I wonder how the 801D crossover does it?

Here's a point of confusion for me: I'm hearing that the 801D would work better if the low-freq. drivers were physically separated and driven in parallel by the summed right and left signal. Wouldn't they design the speaker that way if it improved performance?

I guess the immediate question is how to recreate the crossover. Am I better off running the midrange signal through a digital filter, or leaving the 803D signal analog and dealing with all 4 speakers contributing in the 30-40 Hz band?
Finally, am I better off relying on the SVS filters or buying the Behringer to implement the crossover? (I guess I have to buy the Behringer crossover if I want to use the behringer Feedback destroyer.)

Thank you for reading this mound of confusion.
You have some confusion here.

The bass drivers of the 801D go up to 350 Hz, so they could not be mono! Also I suspect they carry some of the step response correction for the mid range drivers. Your not going to recreate the the crossover of the 801 Ds and nor would you want to.

To answer your question is there stereo bass? It depends on frequency and certainly there is no such thing as stereo bass in sub range.

Don't over think this. Your problem is not uncommon and quite simple.

Split the outputs from your pre amp with a Y. Send one to set of outputs to the amp driving your 803D speakers. Send the other split to a dual channel crossover. It can be a digital one or analag, your preference. Couple the crossover outputs and send them to your subs. The crossover should be fourth order low pass. For starters set the crossover frequency to 60 Hz (roughly F3 X 20). The with an spl meter and your ears set level and fine tune the crossover frequency for best in room response. I have done this many times and it works out very well.

You won't get away from phase shifts with any crossover. None of the B & W speakers are minimal phase shift designs, and like most speakers have significant phase aberrations.

Minimal phase crossovers are really difficult. It is hard to get a smooth response and you have lobing issues you have to live with.

The only speaker I know that has so little phase and time aberration it can reproduce a square wave is the Quad ESL. It does not have lobing issues. If you are overly bothered by phase aberrations then buy Quad ESLs.

Thiel speakers a minimal phase but have lobing issues.

I have built a minimal phase crossover but it took 10 years to get it right. I vowed never again and I haven't.
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I should have downloaded the manual for those subs before. They will do everything you want.

Connect you preamp out with Y connectors to both subs. Then connect the outputs from one sub to your amp. Set the crossover to 63 Hz fourth order.

Use the sub with the outputs connected to your amp to correctly set the delay on your mains. The buffer amps in the sub will make both subs mono. That will be your best bet, the easiest and cheapest.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I see one problem I should have thought of though. You won't have a means of measuring the digital latency or delay in those subs.

The problem is everything is now getting geared around A/V receivers and pre pros.

May be you should take a look at Velodyne which has some degree of auto Eq via microphone.

The other solution is you want to be purist is to buy a subs with analog class A/B amps with built in analog fourth order crossovers. Then if you subs are by your 803s then you won't have big delay issues.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top