Trying to understand AUDIO RESOLUTION and how it relates to our disc players

[timetohunt]

I have been in the audio hobby for just a few months now but I am making strides.

I recently purchased a budget universal DVD player to replace a DVD player that was well .... practically in the $50 disposable catagory. I soon will have about the 1K I need to get a good player.

Anyway, as I was setting up the new unit, the audio setup requested a PCM selection of UP TO 48, 96, or 192 kHz. I assume that PCM is basically part of what makes up audio resolution, that being the bit rate - the other I assume is the bit sample (8 16 20 24).

I am trying to understand how this relates to Universal DVD players in order to get the most out of my DVD-As, SACDs, and CDs. In other words how do you optimize AUDIO RESOLUTION (lets forget about video for this conversation) all of this in regards to: Cables, Player Settings, and potential mods to players.

Here are some questions I would like to pose regarding this topic:
1. Is HDMI a major factor here ? I mean I dont have an HDMI receiver yet. I am using an Optical connection. Does HDMI make things easier in the Audio realm?

2. Is the optical interface OK to use? I had heard that by using optical your DVD-As might be down-converted to 48/16 because of copy protection concerns.

3. I am not sure what the implications of selecting the 48, 96, 192 PCM options on the player are. Is it your receiver that this needs to be matched to? Why not choose the 192, wont it just down convert if it cant meet that spec ? Wont some DVD-As have a 192 kHz track?

4. What does the modification of adding a 6 channel SPDIF output board do?
I am trying to imagine it. Are there going to be 6 extra RCA ports coming out of your player?

Wow - so much to think about. I was going to buy a modified DVD player but I am going to need to know how to use the thing before I do so. I'll bet lots of folks do not have their DVD players set up to optimally play music in regards to Resolution.

I'm still new, Any thoughts?

 

[MDS]

PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) is a 'raw' audio format - a sequence of numbers that represent an analog signal. It is converted to analog by a digital to analog converter (DAC). The sampling rate (44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, etc) is the number of samples for every second of audio and the bit depth (16, 20, 24, etc) is the size of each number.

When you connect the player digitally to a receiver, the receiver does the conversion to analog. The audio setup is basically asking you what resolution the receiver can handle. If the receiver has 24/192 DACS you can set the player to 192 kHz. Any signal that is less than 24/192 will not be touched; for example a CD, which is always 16/44.1, will be processed as 16/44.1. If the receiver only has 96 kHz DACS, you'd want to set the player to 96 kHz so that if you were playing something that is 24/192 the player would resample it to 96 kHz so the receiver can handle it.

Regarding DVD downsampling: Nearly all DVDs are 48 kHz. IF you ever happen to get one with a 96 kHz sampling rate, the player won't send that digitally due to copyright protections. I've personally never seen a DVD with greater than 48 kHz sample rate.

 

[jcPanny]

DVD Player options

Hunt,
You don't need to spend $1k for a good DVD player. Oppo Digital has some good universal players for about $200. Instead of using a 6 channel SPDIF output or other gimick, they send multichannel PCM over the HDMI connection to your receiver. Your receiver will do the surround processing and D/A coversion. Also, all CD and DVD players will sound the same over a digital ouput like HDMI, SPDIF, etc.

For more of a video upgrade, HD-DVD players start at $300.

 

[timetohunt]

Hunt,
You don't need to spend $1k for a good DVD player. Oppo Digital has some good universal players for about $200. Instead of using a 6 channel SPDIF output or other gimick, they send multichannel PCM over the HDMI connection to your receiver. Your receiver will do the surround processing and D/A coversion. Also, all CD and DVD players will sound the same over a digital ouput like HDMI, SPDIF, etc.

For more of a video upgrade, HD-DVD players start at $300.

HOLD ON - You are telling me that all CD and DVD players will sound the same over digital ! If that is true then you just made me realize something. I can surely see how this might be the case - afterall, those $5K and
$6K CD players are based on RCA Analog outputs. Hmmmm - you just made me rethink something. Since most of my collection is Red Book CD. Maybe I should put the money into a used hifi cd player and still get the Oppo for my remaining DVDs and DVD-As and whatever else.

Then there does beg this question - What is it that companies are offering for Player Mods. Even the Oppo is offered in a Super modified version for about $1200. Claims are that it rivals $5000 players.

I am still confused a bit.

 

[WmAx]

HOLD ON - You are telling me that all CD and DVD players will sound the same over digital ! If that is true then you just made me realize something. I can surely see how this might be the case - afterall, those $5K and
$6K CD players are based on RCA Analog outputs. Hmmmm - you just made me rethink something. Since most of my collection is Red Book CD. Maybe I should put the money into a used hifi cd player and still get the Oppo for my remaining DVDs and DVD-As and whatever else.

Then there does beg this question - What is it that companies are offering for Player Mods. Even the Oppo is offered in a Super modified version for about $1200. Claims are that it rivals $5000 players.

I am still confused a bit.

You have an advantage. You have not yet tangled yourself in the worthless opinions(s) by audiophiles, or so it appears. Realize, that the overwhelming vast majority of audio claims are bogus. They have no grounding in real perceptual research. You merely need to buy a CD player with decent quality that will be reliable and has the features that you so desire. More than likely, it will be a transparent device regardless if you use the digital or analogue outputs. However, realize that psychological factors play a role. In most cases, an expensive, reputed name brand, impressive looking device will seem like it sounds better, but this is a product of known human subconscious bias. Whenever this has been subjected to double-blinded, volume level-matched tests, the outcome of such cases has always been that of chance ( no better than guessing), except when a defect or intentional designed distortion was present on one of test pieces and readily measurable. Also realize, that the mere mention of double-blinded testing or other such things often upsets audiophiles, and they will go into baseless diatribes. Simply, it does not agree with their uncontrolled listening experiments and purely speculative opinions. Some extreme audiophile forums even forbid the discussion of properly bias controlled listening tests.

The main part to invest money in for audio in order to get substantial improvements is the loudspeakers and room acoustics. Period. Sufficient amplifiers, sources and pre-amps are cheap in comparison.

As for video, that is another topic entirely.

-Chris

 

[Nick250]

When connected to the amplification digitally it also rivals the $150 players. The only reason to spend more is for improved video quality IMO. I have not seen it myself, but many on this forum have been very impressed by the Oppo.

Nick

 

[avaserfi]

Some extreme audiophile forums even forbid the discussion of properly bias controlled listening tests.

A little off topic, but holy @*#@ being a statistics minor and someone who just understands science calling those forums extreme seems a little wrong seems more like it should be uneducated.

As to the question I have a perfect example of audio equality of CD players. A friend of mine has a Harmon Kardon 7.1 HTIB set up but always complains about the DVD/CD player that came with it, connected via optical, so he convinced his dad to let him borrow his old Sony ES line CD player, connected via optical as well. When he first hooked it up it was the greatest thing he ever heard. Then I came and did a double blind with just him. He told me 100 percent which player he liked more and that it had to be the ES we did the same thing 10 times it ended up 6 for the Sony and 4 for the Harmon I never heard him complain about the Harmon again.

 

[Nick250]

The main part to invest money in for audio in order to get substantial improvements is the loudspeakers and room acoustics. Period. Sufficient amplifiers, sources and pre-amps are cheap in comparison.
-Chris

I suspect that I may have come across as a broken record about speakers, room acoustics, and amplification. I think some members have simply given up on trying to convey this again and again and again. It's nice to hear WmAx chime in.

Nick

 

[WmAx]

I suspect that I may have come across as a broken record about speakers, room acoustics, and amplification. I think some members have simply given up on trying to convey this again and again and again. It's nice to hear WmAx chime in.

Nick

I'm not sure what you mean by amplification. Sufficient amplifiers for 'any' level of speaker can be purchased on the cheap these days. A commodity item, almost.

-Chris

 

[timetohunt]

The main part to invest money in for audio in order to get substantial improvements is the loudspeakers and room acoustics. Period. Sufficient amplifiers, sources and pre-amps are cheap in comparison.

As for video, that is another topic entirely.

-Chris

I started this thread. 80% of the dollars spent on my system has been in speakers... so I am confident that I have my priorities straight relative to that. I will be researching room treatments next. BUT....

the discussion on the thread gets a little fuzzy.
For example: Do all players sound the same when connected digitally, regardless of price, brand etc? Still confused there.

What about these modified players? Even the Oppo is offered by some companies in a mod?

Overall, I think what I am hearing is; that regarding a player - there is a very good chance that I will not be able to tell the difference between a cheapie or a suped up mid-fi or even a $6k CD player made by Musical Fidelity. Still seeking help. Please refer to the initial post.

 

[MDS]

When you connect a player digitally, all it does is read the bits off the disc and transport them to the receiver. The receiver does all the processing and digital to analog processing...hence the comments that all players will sound the same using a digital connection.

Lots of companies will offer 'mods' under the premise that they improve something deemed lacking but that doesn't mean that it actually will improve things.

 

[Swerd]

Do all players sound the same when connected digitally, regardless of price, brand etc? Still confused there...

Overall, I think what I am hearing is; that regarding a player - there is a very good chance that I will not be able to tell the difference between a cheapie or a suped up mid-fi or even a $6k CD player made by Musical Fidelity. Still seeking help. Please refer to the initial post.

For any standard CD or video DVD played on a player connected by digital cable to an AV receiver, the DAC in the reciever will do all the D to A conversion for the audio. This is not the case for SACD or DVD-A discs. They cannot be read by the DAC in any AV receiver I know of, and must be converted by DACs onboard SACD/DVD-A players.

In fact, if a CD player is connected by analog cables to an AV reciever, the first thing that happens is the receiver DIGITIZES the analog audio signal! Most of the signal processing performed by AV recieivers is done in the digital mode. This is true for any standard 2-channel analog audio source.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Then I came and did a double blind with just him. He told me 100 percent which player he liked more and that it had to be the ES we did the same thing 10 times it ended up 6 for the Sony and 4 for the Harmon I never heard him complain about the Harmon again.

And, probably you didn't even level match them, right?

 

[Geno]

There's our whole hobby in a nutshell

You have an advantage. You have not yet tangled yourself in the worthless opinions(s) by audiophiles, or so it appears. Realize, that the overwhelming vast majority of audio claims are bogus. They have no grounding in real perceptual research. You merely need to buy a CD player with decent quality that will be reliable and has the features that you so desire. More than likely, it will be a transparent device regardless if you use the digital or analogue outputs. However, realize that psychological factors play a role. In most cases, an expensive, reputed name brand, impressive looking device will seem like it sounds better, but this is a product of known human subconscious bias. Whenever this has been subjected to double-blinded, volume level-matched tests, the outcome of such cases has always been that of chance ( no better than guessing), except when a defect or intentional designed distortion was present on one of test pieces and readily measurable. Also realize, that the mere mention of double-blinded testing or other such things often upsets audiophiles, and they will go into baseless diatribes. Simply, it does not agree with their uncontrolled listening experiments and purely speculative opinions. Some extreme audiophile forums even forbid the discussion of properly bias controlled listening tests.

The main part to invest money in for audio in order to get substantial improvements is the loudspeakers and room acoustics. Period. Sufficient amplifiers, sources and pre-amps are cheap in comparison.

As for video, that is another topic entirely.

-Chris

If I've not said it before, THANK GOD for guys like you who can cut through the unbelievable BS that infests this hobby of ours. I often read Stereophile and Absolute Sound just to see what constitutes the "common wisdom" in the rarefied world of guys who spend high six-figure amounts of money in some neurotic attempt to capture the "perfect" sonic experience, especially in amplification, CD transports, and turntables. If I had that level of income, I'd probably get some of the sexier high end stuff, too, especially speakers, but I can't bring myself to believe that the improvement in sound quality is going to be that gigantic.
Your remark about the esoteric crowd eschewing controlled, double-blind tests just confirms that the Emperor Has No Clothes.

Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong

 

[Jack Hammer]

I'm fairly certain I recall discussions about dvd players not being able to play cd's as well as a cd player due to the different types of lasers being used. IIRC the general consensus was that most cd players offered the same redbook sq and that was better than redbook sq generally offered by dvd players. Am I missing something here?

Jack

 

[no. 5]

You have an advantage. You have not yet tangled yourself in the worthless opinions(s) by audiophiles, or so it appears. Realize, that the overwhelming vast majority of audio claims are bogus. They have no grounding in real perceptual research. You merely need to buy a CD player with decent quality that will be reliable and has the features that you so desire. More than likely, it will be a transparent device regardless if you use the digital or analogue outputs. However, realize that psychological factors play a role. In most cases, an expensive, reputed name brand, impressive looking device will seem like it sounds better, but this is a product of known human subconscious bias. Whenever this has been subjected to double-blinded, volume level-matched tests, the outcome of such cases has always been that of chance ( no better than guessing), except when a defect or intentional designed distortion was present on one of test pieces and readily measurable. Also realize, that the mere mention of double-blinded testing or other such things often upsets audiophiles, and they will go into baseless diatribes. Simply, it does not agree with their uncontrolled listening experiments and purely speculative opinions. Some extreme audiophile forums even forbid the discussion of properly bias controlled listening tests.

The main part to invest money in for audio in order to get substantial improvements is the loudspeakers and room acoustics. Period. Sufficient amplifiers, sources and pre-amps are cheap in comparison.

As for video, that is another topic entirely.

-Chris

That's one goooooood post WmAx.

I highlighted the part I found to be of particular interest (to me anyway); it's somewhat similar to why your car seems to perform a little better when it has been well cleaned, what you see can play a large role in what is perceived.
Now don't think that I am trying to advocate multi-thousand dollar CD players, but I don't know of anyone listens to music under DBT conditions every time they want to hear some music, admittedly, some people listen to music in the dark - as do I sometimes - but a lot of the time you will see the equipment rack, which is why I like to suggest that a person buys the gear that they think is cool.
It may not improve sound quality - but they will like their own setup more. And by extension, its sound quality.

 

[MDS]

I'm fairly certain I recall discussions about dvd players not being able to play cd's as well as a cd player due to the different types of lasers being used. IIRC the general consensus was that most cd players offered the same redbook sq and that was better than redbook sq generally offered by dvd players. Am I missing something here?

Jack

Both CD and DVD require a red laser but the wavelengths differ. IIRC, CD uses a 780 nanometer laser and DVD uses a 640 nanometer laser. There is no reason to believe that a DVD player would be inferior to a dedicated CD player at reading redbook CDs.

 

[WmAx]

That's one goooooood post WmAx.

I highlighted the part I found to be of particular interest (to me anyway); it's somewhat similar to why your car seems to perform a little better when it has been well cleaned, what you see can play a large role in what is perceived.
Now don't think that I am trying to advocate multi-thousand dollar CD players, but I don't know of anyone listens to music under DBT conditions every time they want to hear some music, admittedly, some people listen to music in the dark - as do I sometimes - but a lot of the time you will see the equipment rack, which is why I like to suggest that a person buys the gear that they think is cool.
It may not improve sound quality - but they will like their own setup more. And by extension, its sound quality.

I agree that it is nice to have the expensive stuff. Like having a Rolex to wear is nice. But it serves no actual increased quality of function.

I think also, that people buy more expensive hardware because they are not satisfied with the sound quality of the speakers and/or room acoustics. Perhaps the almost inevitable placebo that comes along with buying a new amplifier or CD player helps to a degree, at least temporarily. But I believe that if they had the optimal speaker/room sound quality to begin with, that they would be less likely to be dis-satisfied with their other hardware. Just my silly theory.

-Chris

 

[no. 5]

I agree that it is nice to have the expensive stuff. Like having a Rolex to wear is nice. But it serves no actual increased quality of function.

That's pretty much what I was trying to get at.

I think also, that people buy more expensive hardware because they are not satisfied with the sound quality of the speakers and/or room acoustics. Perhaps the almost inevitable placebo that comes along with buying a new amplifier or CD player helps to a degree, at least temporarily. But I believe that if they had the optimal speaker/room sound quality to begin with, that they would be less likely to be dis-satisfied with their other hardware. Just my silly theory.

-Chris

I think that's perfectly true: when the vast majority of people think about home theater, and audio in general, they think of the gear associated with it - not the acoustic principals of good sound.
I guarantee you that I will hear the words "I like that blue light" far more times in my life then the words "this room sounds fantastic".

 

[timetohunt]

Thanks - Its information like this that helps us newer folks keep our heads screwed on tight.

Reading reviews on super hi fi audio gear did draw me in a bit. It always seemed like they were talking about a 200 year old bottle of fine cognac. And I wanted to taste it. And while the 200 year old bottle is very rare and regal, in form and function its still very close to that $40 bottle sitting on the shelf in the liquor store.