Towers vs Book Shelf

[Fowl]

Ok with all the threads that have been posted recently about towers and book shelf speakers I am now totally confused. At this point in time I do not have any from L/R speakers -returned the paradigms. I even thought very seriously a few days ago about buying the EMP 30T went as far as sending a PM to the store administrator.

I decided to wait a few days and read as much as I could; now I am in a worse position that before, my head is still spinning with all the information.

The bottom line is I need good suggestions. My room is 12x11x9 and need to know if I need to get towers or bookshelf speakers? I need sound to fill the room but also need good sound quality and wide sound stage.

I am willing to wait and am not adverse to order online, jut don’t want to make another mistake or spend unnecessary money, which I have done in the past

Please HELP

 

[fredk]

You need to go out and listen to a bunch of different speakers and decide what you like. Get the store to set up bookshelves and floor standers so you can compare the sound.

Do that with several different brands in several different stores, and you will be a lot less confused.

You can get a general sense for what different speakers and sizes will sound like by asking here, but in the end we can only tell you what we like, not what you like.

Trust your ears. Check out speakers with a reputation for a larger sound stage. Go with what you like.

Fred

 

[flippo]

wide soundstage

vanns.com have Mirage omni 550 tower speakers for $130 each which is a great deal. Mirage has a very large soundstage.

 

[MDS]

I've always had floorstanding front speakers but here is how I see the tower vs bookshelf decision (ignoring aesthetic issues):

In general, towers are capable of much greater power handling and low frequency response. Either tower or bookshelves can be integrated with a subwoofer and be made to sound good, but a general rule of thumb for setting the xover frequency is to set it 1/2 to 1 octave above the F3 (-3 dB point of the speaker). That rule of thumb is nearly impossible to follow with all but the biggest, most expensive bookshelves because using a universal xover recommendation of 80 Hz, it would require a bookshelf that goes down to 40 - 60 Hz.

It just seems a little easier to integrate towers with a sub (exceptions apply of course - like THX certified speakers with THX certified receivers) and if you are the type that likes to blast your favorite music in 2 channel stereo and only use the mains without a sub you just can't do it with bookshelves.

Just some things to consider...

 

[Sheep]

I've always had floorstanding front speakers but here is how I see the tower vs bookshelf decision (ignoring aesthetic issues):

In general, towers are capable of much greater power handling and low frequency response. Either tower or bookshelves can be integrated with a subwoofer and be made to sound good, but a general rule of thumb for setting the xover frequency is to set it 1/2 to 1 octave above the F3 (-3 dB point of the speaker). That rule of thumb is nearly impossible to follow with all but the biggest, most expensive bookshelves because using a universal xover recommendation of 80 Hz, it would require a bookshelf that goes down to 40 - 60 Hz.

It just seems a little easier to integrate towers with a sub (exceptions apply of course - like THX certified speakers with THX certified receivers) and if you are the type that likes to blast your favorite music in 2 channel stereo and only use the mains without a sub you just can't do it with bookshelves.

Just some things to consider...

Well, you can.. you just don't like how it sounds.

I'm the opposite. I like bookshelf speakers over towers. Better placement options, get to have sexy stands, plus a tower speaker is more prone to resonance because they have larger panels. Most manufactures don't "beef up" the box in accordance to the extra size, so you end up with more resonance (though any speaker I can afford is going to resonate like a bastard. Apparently bastard's resonate a lot). This isn't fact, though.

SheepStar

 

[WmAx]

I've always had floorstanding front speakers but here is how I see the tower vs bookshelf decision (ignoring aesthetic issues):

In general, towers are capable of much greater power handling and low frequency response. Either tower or bookshelves can be integrated with a subwoofer and be made to sound good, but a general rule of thumb for setting the xover frequency is to set it 1/2 to 1 octave above the F3 (-3 dB point of the speaker). That rule of thumb is nearly impossible to follow with all but the biggest, most expensive bookshelves because using a universal xover recommendation of 80 Hz, it would require a bookshelf that goes down to 40 - 60 Hz.

It just seems a little easier to integrate towers with a sub (exceptions apply of course - like THX certified speakers with THX certified receivers) and if you are the type that likes to blast your favorite music in 2 channel stereo and only use the mains without a sub you just can't do it with bookshelves.

Just some things to consider...

The only reason for such a drastic rule of 1/2 to 1 octave over F3 is due to the pathetically limited crossovers found in almost all gear. If you use a device such as DCX2496, which has no such limitations, you can crossover very close the F3 of the speaker. The real rule lies in where the speaker starts to distort vs. input power vs. frequency, and usually, you need not go anywhere near 1/2 octave over F3 to come close to optimization in this regard with a bookshelf speaker. If you use the correct crossover slope and point, a bookshelf speaker can typically take far more power than it could otherwise in full-range mode; as in full-range mode the physical movement limitations of the mid-bass driver is usually the first limiting factor.

-Chris

 

[Bugbitten]

Several companies have the 30-day trial period for speakers.

Some even pay return shipping. Aperion, Axiom, AV123, come to mind but I sure there are others.

 

[Fowl]

Thanks for all the responses but pardon my ignorance, what is the F3 of a speaker?

 

[Bugbitten]

Quoting William McFadden:

2. Small Signal Parameters

The three parameters that primarily determine the frequency response
of a loudspeaker are compliance, free-air resonance, and Q.

The compliance, Vas, is a measure of the overall stiffness of the
cone, surround (the part the attaches to front of the cone), and
spider (the part that attaches to the rear of the cone). It is
specified as the volume of air having the same compliance as the
driver. A small number corresponds to a small volume of air, which is
stiffer than a larger volume of air. Thus, compliance and stiffness
are inversely proportional. Optimum enclosure volume is proportional
to Vas.

Free-air resonance, Fs, is the resonant frequency of the driver's
voice coil impedance with the driver suspended in free air (no
enclosure). The -3 dB frequency (F3) of an enclosure is proportional
to Fs.

The Q, Qts, is a measure of the sharpness of the driver's free-air
resonance. It is defined as (Fh-Fl)/Fs, where Fh and Fl are the upper
and lower -3 dB points of the driver's voice coil impedance in free
air. Optimum enclosure volume is related to Qts but is not directly
proportional. It is accurate to say that the volume gets larger as
Qts gets larger. Likewise, F3 gets smaller as Qts gets larger, and
for the sealed box enclosure, F3 is inversely proportional to Qts.

 

[MDS]

The technobabble surrounding speaker parameters is interesting but is more than most people want to know. I'm only interested in it to a limited degree myself.

So to simplify F3 it is simply the frequency at which the output varies from the input by 3 dB. Using the Polk RTi A7 because I was looking at it today:
Overall Frequency Response 20Hz-27kHz
Lower -3dB Limit 35Hz
Upper -3dB Limit 26kHz

At 35 Hz the output is down 3 dB and likewise at 26 kHz the output is down 3 dB. Most manufacturers just quote one frequency response and would say the above speaker is 35 - 26 kHz +/- 3 dB (it would be rare if there weren't certain parts of the frequency range that is emphasizes).

Practically speaking the lowest this speaker can play is 35 Hz. Note that the spec says the 'overall' response is 20 - 27 kHz. There will be sound output at those lower and upper frequencies but it will be down by more than 3 dB and by how much they don't say.

 

[DD66000]

Either tower or bookshelves can be integrated with a subwoofer and be made to sound good, but a general rule of thumb for setting the xover frequency is to set it 1/2 to 1 octave above the F3 (-3 dB point of the speaker). That rule of thumb is nearly impossible to follow with all but the biggest, most expensive bookshelves because using a universal xover recommendation of 80 Hz, it would require a bookshelf that goes down to 40 - 60 Hz

.
That's no rule I've ever used.
In fact you want the XO at the -3db point of both the speakers, then you end up with a flat response at the XO point.

 

[WmAx]

.
That's no rule I've ever used.
In fact you want the XO at the -3db point of both the speakers, then you end up with a flat response at the XO point.

That is in contradiction to actual physics. When using a textbook electrical transfer function as a standard HT receiver applies, you want the speakers to have a flat response at crossover points, far away from F3, so that both amplitude is flat, and phase is at minimal rotation. Don't confuse this with my last reply regarding ideal points; as that was meant to apply to ideal circumstance of a highly versatile DSP stand alone xover, not the severe limitation as usually imposed by built in receiver xovers.

-Chris

 

[furrycute]

Hi Chris, I have a question for you regarding stereo subs.

Would two 10" subs (2 separate subs each one featuring a single 10" driver) give me too much bass?

What about two 12" subs? Would that be way too much bass? I understand a 12" sub can dig deeper than a 10". But if I go with stereo subs, would two 12" subs be overkill?

 

[Sheep]

Turn the gain down....

SheepStar

 

[bandphan]

and probably distorted How did those polks sound out of curiosity?

 

[WmAx]

Hi Chris, I have a question for you regarding stereo subs.

Would two 10" subs (2 separate subs each one featuring a single 10" driver) give me too much bass?

What about two 12" subs? Would that be way too much bass? I understand a 12" sub can dig deeper than a 10". But if I go with stereo subs, would two 12" subs be overkill?

Sheep is correct.

As for overkill; two high quality 10 or 12 inch subwoofers will generally produce far more SPL than will be ever be used in flat playback; of course if you ride your bass gain by 15db over the main speaker gain, like some do, it might be just enough. But multiple subwoofers generally allow for superior sound quality in terms of integration and in-room even response.

-Chris

 

[furrycute]

Thanks Sheep and Chris for the answers.

I don't consider myself a bass head. 15db bass gain is a bit over the top... I think I can live comfortably with a mere 10db gain...