Towers set to large?

timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
my b&w 683 fronts sound incredible for movies when set to large. i have the sub set to LFE+main. but watching the drivers move so much worries me.

they are rated at 38hz +3db. not totally sure how to understand that though.

when i watch movies in dts-hd i have the master volume at 0db. ive left the auduessy calibration settings on my denon as it set itself.

the 683s are 200w & my avr is 100w per channel.

can anyone tell me if, from the info ive listed, i am risking damage to the 683s??
also, what is reference volume?
is it the +3db that i see listed under the sensetivity?

any help is so very appreciated!!!
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
what is your sub?

when you say that you like the 683's set to large; have you tried setting them to small with a crossover of say: 100hz (LFE sub only)?
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
my subs are...

ive tried every possible setting inside & out of my avr. i am running a martin logan grotto & a b&w as2. my ht is a 6.2 configuration. it sounds great when all is set to small as everyone recommends but HOLY!! when the towers are large...watch out!!

i just want to know if im doin damage or not.

BTW: i hear no clipping or distortion.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
nope, i don't think you'll damage your speakers. just make sure to turn it down as soon as you hear sounds that are not "normal" ... your tweeters are more at risk than your woofers.
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
I agree with Mike. If your reciever can still deliver lfe with them set to large and it sounds better then go for it. I have large main speakers and I put my reciever on large and sub on plus and at -15 I can shake the dishes on the shelves upstairs. If I put them on small the mains do not work like they can. I am listenong to G+R right now and the bass and kick drum are super punchy.....:cool:
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
really??

wow thats the first time ive heard that. i am still curious to figure out what the reference volume level is for the b&w 683s?

also, a friend told me that when i calibrate my system with the auduessy eq, it sets the individual db for the channels so that when playing a movie the master should be at 0db. is that true?
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
thanks!!!

oh yeah i just wanted to thank you guys for the help!

every question ive posted in the past has been met with great advice. so keep the answers commin...its appreciated!
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
If I set my Pioneer to 0db it will blast you out of the room but I am running all pro amps so your mileage may vary. With calibration I usually reach Reference level at -25 on the reciever.
 
S

SRR

Audioholic Intern
If I set my Pioneer to 0db it will blast you out of the room but I am running all pro amps so your mileage may vary. With calibration I usually reach Reference level at -25 on the reciever.
You shouldn't, if calibrated with a SPL meter, 0dB is 0dB. Meaning in relation to everything else 105dB peaks should be attained with a setting of 0dB from movies.

Here is something I wrote about this along time ago to help:

There are many ways to talk about and explain sound. We can say it is dry, flat, bright, dull, muddy, brilliant, and many other descriptions. Terms such as that are intangible when it comes to the next guy, one man’s perfect sound, is another's mud. These kind of descriptions can be helpful and can be used as a basic guide, but other terms like a dB (deci-Bel) can be given an exact scientific definition. Knowing what such terms mean is helpful, not just for helping us to pick out and compare components, but it also helps to understand how we hear.

A Bel is a standard of measure, named after Alexander Graham Bell. A deci-Bel is one tenth of a Bel. So what is a Bel? Well, a Bel is the logarithm of an electrical, acoustic, or other power ratio, the key being power. The formula for this is Bel=log(A/B) with A and B representing the two levels being compared. Since, in sound issues, a Bel is really too large a number to work with, they wanted to use something smaller and went to a dB, which changes the formula to dB=10*log(A/B). To help put this in non-tech terms, dBs are used to measure how much more or less we have of a certain thing. In this case how much more or less of an acoustic power or signal level, referenced to a certain level. dBs can be used in a variety of situations when talking about consumer electronics, whether it is voltage, wattage or SPLs(Sound Pressure Levels). I will point out that a dB is a dB, whether it is talking about volts, watts, or SPLs, how we figure the ratios is somewhat different, but in the end a 1dB increase in voltage, is a 1dB increase in wattage, is a 1dB increase in SPLs.

Now to apply this to our components, first comes voltage. I start here because this is ultimately what drives our speakers and components. It is also the one that throws a curve ball at us in relation to the formula. Now if you know Ohms Law, you know that power is proportional to the square of the voltage. Since the dB(power) = 10*log(A/B) formula is for power ratios, the voltage formula changes to dB(volts) =20*log(A/B). Let’s apply this to the real world. The average CD player puts out about 2V (volts) with the maximum signal recorded on a CD. With the 2V given, if I said that a particular CD' s average level output on the same CD player is about .6V, how much below the peak level of 2V would the average be? 20*log(2/ .6)=10.4 dBs. This is just a small example. The point is that if you know two voltages you can determine the difference in dBs. Also if you follow the formula, doubling the voltage will yield a 6dB increase, but this is not so with wattage.

How do dBs correlate to wattage? Well, since watts are a measurement of power, we can go back to the dB= 10*log(A/B) formula. When looking at receivers and power amps, marketing and salesmen types love to throw out numbers like this or that has this many watts, but it really means nothing until you get that broken into dBs. Take an 85 watt per channel receiver, and a 110 watt per channel receiver. Based just on the manufacturer’s specs we can determine the exact difference in dBs between the two. Before we do, I want to make it clear that just because there might be the smallest of differences in dBs does not automatically mean that the component with the smaller wattage is just fine. It should come down to how clean one sounds over the other. Ok, putting in the above numbers you get dB=10*log(110/85). That calculated out equals 1.1dBs, not much difference at all. To get a noticeable perceived difference in volume, you need about a 3dB increase; 1.1dBs falls well short of anything significant.

That leads us into the discussion of dBs and SPL. The human ear needs that 3dBs more to perceive a noticeable change in volume, and to perceive a doubling in loudness we need an increase of 10dB. Now going back to wattage for a moment, to get 10dB more in terms of watts, you need ten times the power. While you digest that for a moment, you also need to know how speakers are rated in relation to dB SPLs. A speaker usually has a rated sensitivity somewhere in the manufacturer’s specs. This measurement as an industry standard is taken with a 1 watt input at 1 meter away on axis with the tweeter. The average is about 90dBs. That tells us with one watt of power at one meter away the speaker will produce a SPL of 90dBs. So if the same speaker is driven by a 100 watt amp, you would use the following formula dB= 10*log(100/1), the 100 being the one hundred watt amp, and the 1 being the one watt to obtain the given sensitivity. With that plugged through the calculator, you come up with 20dBs. That, in turn, means that if this speaker is driven with 100 watts of power, it will reach 110dBs at one meter away. The relation of dBs and distance can also be used to help determine how loud that 110dBs might be at say twice the distance. This falls under the inverse square law. Basically, all you need to know is that in a reflective-free environment, if you double the distance you lose 6dB of sound pressure. So at 2 meters that 110dBs is now only 104dBs,but in the real world we don't live in a reflective-free environment so the drop most likely won't be exactly 6dB.

To close, a few things are very important to remember about dBs, volts, watts, and SPLs. First, just because one power is higher than the next, does not mean it is significant, but at the same time if the lower-powered device does not sound as good as the higher-powered one, the difference in dBs won't matter either way. Also remember if you are dealing with manufacturer specs, the variance of some manufacturers overrating their equipment's ability or in some cases underrating its ability needs to be factored in. Next, the more headroom the better, but in some cases too much headroom is complete overkill. How and where dBs are referenced to is also important. When I say a SPL meter reads 90dBs, that means that a sound is 90dBs above the threshold of hearing. With CD's, Full Scale Digital (a maximum recorded signal) is referenced to 0dB. Anything below that becomes a minus dB from the stated reference point. In the long run, it helps to remember where the reference point is. Understanding dBs and how they relate to our components, speakers, and ears is important, and I hope this humble column has started or increased your knowledge on dBs.
 
T

tcarcio

Audioholic General
Great explanation, But when running outboard pro amps I set them higher so they reach reference level without having to turn the reciever up higher. All my amps are set less then 1/2 gain so headroom is not a question. I listen a little louder then most people and the system sounds fantastic.
 
P

popotoys

Audioholic
ive tried every possible setting inside & out of my avr. i am running a martin logan grotto & a b&w as2. my ht is a 6.2 configuration. it sounds great when all is set to small as everyone recommends but HOLY!! when the towers are large...watch out!!

i just want to know if im doin damage or not.

BTW: i hear no clipping or distortion.
IMO, these are the questions I would ask myself:

1. Why not crossover at 80hz or 100hz and drive the subs harder. You have a 6.2 system, why not let the subs do what they are designed to do?

2. Your speakers drop to 38hz, LFE goes much lower than this. From what I understand maybe even to 10hz or lower. Will these super low frequencies damage your spearkers in the long term?

3. Is your room treated?

4. Are your sub's eq'd. It almost sounds like there may be some frequency and issues with the low end. Just my $0.02.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
I have run across the same with my large MB Quart towers. I played with my fronts as large and small and various crossovers. I settled on 60 Hz to cross my front over. I found this gave my theatre the extra low end "punch" from a smaller quicker driver but limited some the harder to reproduce lower frequencies from straining my speakers and like Mike said damaging my tweeters. Yout best bet is to play around with various frequencies to cross over at and determine with you prefer while at the same time will help keep you from damaging your speakers while listening at loud volumes.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
6.2 setup

For a long time i had my towers set to small. crossed over at 60hz. sounded great. however my martin logan grotto a couple of times just shut off during movies at high volumes. the gain was set to -3db the 25hz crossover on the sub was at -3 db and the low pass was at 55hz. in the Denon the sub db was at +15 (way to high I found out) itook the sub to a local ML dealer, they checked it out & said all looked fine, that i was probably sending too much to it & the amp was protecting itself by shutting off.
(my B&W-AS2 never had a prob)
So i turned down the sub db in the denon to 0db. Still got plenty of LFE but i was still yearning for a little more.(maybe im gettin greedy i dont know)
a buddy of mine came by and we tried the Hulk on blu-ray with them set to large. I was blown away with the dynamics & power my system had. I was afraid that i may be pushing the B&W 683s a little too hard. he assured me i wasnt. ive always had a lot respect from the feedback i get on this forum so i thought id run the original question by everyone.

No my room is not treated (yet) besides both of my subs having a SubDudeHD under them.

Mind you that my 6.2 sounds great with them set to small, it just has that extra "umph" when at large.

So why am i risking damage to the tweeters if set to large? are they getting more low frequencies too when at full range? arent the built in crossovers taking care of them?
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
IMHO:

1) you need a better sub (or more of that grotto), one that won't shut down with your desired use.
2) once you get this better sub, crossover at 100hz or 110hz and use LFE: sub only.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
my b&w 683 fronts sound incredible for movies when set to large. i have the sub set to LFE+main. but watching the drivers move so much worries me.

they are rated at 38hz +3db. not totally sure how to understand that though.

when i watch movies in dts-hd i have the master volume at 0db. ive left the auduessy calibration settings on my denon as it set itself.

the 683s are 200w & my avr is 100w per channel.

can anyone tell me if, from the info ive listed, i am risking damage to the 683s??
also, what is reference volume?
is it the +3db that i see listed under the sensetivity?

any help is so very appreciated!!!
That should not surprise anyone. Any decent tower speaker should give the best results set that way. With good speakers, setting them to large and then setting the sub to shelve in below twice the -3db point of the mains usually gives the best results. In your case the -3db point is 38 Hz, so setting your sub crossover somewhere in the 70 to 80 Hz range would be expected to be optimum.

Setting up like this is B & W's recommendation by the way. I know this is not the Lucas Labs recommendation, but I have serious differences of opinion with them about bass management.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
I have my DefTech BP7001sc set to small with a 40Hz crossover, they have a built in sub, but set to large made the bass too boomy and when set to small the bass tighted up great and now blends with SVS fantastic.

I do have my AV123 Strata Minis set to large in my guest room, but I use that only for music while on the computer and never crank it loud enough to be a problem and it works very well. Those have built in 8" subs.

I was at a GTG at a buddies house a few months ago and he has Dynaudio Towers with three 8" woofers as his mians in his theater room and he also has a SVS PB13 Ultra and we tries the system out with his mains set to large and they sounded very good, but when we switched them to small, his towers came to life and cleared right up and that SVS opened waaay up. BTW we set the Dynaudios to small at 60Hz, they did not have a powered sub built in as the 8" were all passive.

I always tell freinds that it's best to run your mains as small and set the crossover to what they can handle, in most cases 40Hz or 60hz if they can achieve a frequency response in the 30hz range.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
reply,..

mike c. actually im totally happy with my 2 subs. specially the ML Grotto (10" 350w servo controlled)

my question was not on the subs but the damage concern with my towers.

TSLguy thanks for the input. let me clarify...u agree with me having my towers set to large?
not much to worry bout as far as harming them?

by the way, ur setup pictures made my eyes open wide & my jaw drop! that is commendable!
 
S

Solid-State

Banned
Lots of great advice etc and some great math but you all neglected to tell buddy his Denon AVR has more than just a simple global xover point. Most if not all have the ability to set the Xover for each speaker. Ideally with a Denon AVR it's best to set it to Large for mains, small for center and rears when using floor standing towers. Set LFE xover to advanced mode, set mains from 40-80 depending on what your mains can do. Most decent towers should be set between 40-65Hz. Set your center and rears to 90-110Hz depending on their performance. Set it to LFE+main and for direct mode LFE+main set xover to 40-65Hz. I try to have the sub and mains overlap 5-20Hz depending on the mains drop off to provide the most non directional bass. Also do the sub crawl for placement. This should yield the best bass results. Most decent towers these days seem to drop off around 55-65. I usually set mains in around there and the sub about 5-10Hz higher using it's own internal xover. I don't set it to infinity/bypass on the subs either.

Solid-State
 
Last edited:
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
mike c. actually im totally happy with my 2 subs. specially the ML Grotto (10" 350w servo controlled)

my question was not on the subs but the damage concern with my towers.

TSLguy thanks for the input. let me clarify...u agree with me having my towers set to large?
not much to worry bout as far as harming them?

by the way, ur setup pictures made my eyes open wide & my jaw drop! that is commendable!
I never tell anyone they can not blow a speaker. You can blow any speaker if you have a mind to do it.

I do not think you will damage your speakers at listening levels that are not injurious to your hearing.
 
timoteo

timoteo

Audioholic General
tweeters...?

So i am still going back and forth between my mains at large & mains at small crossed at 40hz. However now i am now little concerned about damaging the tweeters as a few of you have warned me about. I dont want to sound paranoid but since ive only been an audiojunkie for couple years i am trying to educate myself as much as possible from experienced ones.

From your perspective how easy is it to damage a tweeter when the mains are set to large?

I enjoy my movies at high volumes. Like ive mentioned b4 the master volume is typically set to 0db.

Is this anywhere near damaging the tweeters?

My Denon channel DB settings are:
Mains -5db
Center +1.5db
Surrounds +0.5db
Sub -12db

Maybe this info helps with your responses.
 

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