M

MikeyB

Enthusiast
Hi there - I'm not sure if this is in the right forum, so please move if applicable.

I've just gotten a quote from a home theater place for tv, speakers, dvd player, receiver, sub, wires, installation etc - the whole works. I'm shocked by how little off I am getting from MSRP - can this be normal? I'm paying at most 10% off from retail, plus almost 1k in installation out of a total cost of 12K.

Now, I know that there has to be more room in there for a discount! Part of the whole reason I'm going with a place like this is to get a package deal! What's normal? What should I expect?

It's almost like they don't want the job, like it's too small or something... or maybe just checking if I'll just pay it.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Mike

P.S. I'll gladly post specifics but don't want to violate any forum rules :)
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
We would be shooting in the dark without specifics. Do post them.
 
M

MikeyB

Enthusiast
Here's the big stuff:
Energy RC-70s - 1840/pair
LCR - 550
RCR - 550/pair
Denon 3806 receiver - 1179
Denon 1920 DVD player - 329
Paradigm PW2200 sub (floor model) - 750
Sony FWD50PX2-S plasma - 3900 (not buying this, got a pioneer instead)

There's some little stuff in there like the mount, wires and such but that's the bulk of it.

Thanks
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
I would change the sub. A PB-10 would probly be equal or greater then that sub(depending on room). :eek:

Those Energys are damn expensive. Its hard to get a discount on them. Did you look at any other lines? Or Brands for that matter?

SheepStar
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
More to the point - have you spoken with any other dealers or custom integrators in yoru area? I regularly do installs for under $10K with 100" front projection, but a decent plasma will run well more than a decent projector... labor is far more on the projector though.

The real issue is that when you are dealing with brands that do NOT sell through the Internet, you are playing into the custom market and a highly protected market. The reason you will ALWAYS pay close to MSRP is because that's how retail stores like that stay in business.

Keep in mind...
Are YOU putting the system together?
Are YOU delivering it to your home?
Are YOU going to have to deal with any little issue should a product fail?
Are YOU going to be individually ordering, shipping, stocking, etc. every item that you are buying?
Are YOU maintaining contracts with all those excellent vendors?
If you aren't happy with the items - do YOU have the right to return them?

If the price is high, you can always do it all yourself, go online, look for deals, etc. You can spend hours and days figuring it all out, then installing it all yourself. But, retailers tend to have a certain value added ability that helps to justify the additional cost you pay - and knowing this you can choose NOT to pay if you don't want to.

Also - there is no such thing as a 'package'. You are getting a fully engineered and designed system using individual components from different manufacturers which are being put together as a single cohesive system. A home theater in a box is a 'package'. This is a bit of engineering tied with a fair amount of product knowledge to give you a solution. The dealer doesn't get a price break because you are buying more from them - and they likely would be happy to charge you full MSRP for everything if you want to do it all yourself... heck, they'd likely happily give you that 10% off to take it and go away. :)

Price seems typical and as I said - it is a take it or leave it world.
 
M

MikeyB

Enthusiast
I guess that's what I was asking - it just seemed strange to pay both close to sticker and a hefty chunk for installation. I've heard plenty of times on this and other forums of people receiving substantial discounts on these types of items, so I guess I thought that I would get something similar, especially since I was buying "the whole package". I guess I was wrong.

Sheep - I actually might do without the sub altogether - those 70s put out some serious base. If I do, I'll save up for one that has an EQ.

I did listen to other brands and models, and these are the ones that I like the most.

BMXTRIX - Your point about value add is spot on - and part of the reason why i went this route in the first place. I could do it all myself, but the amount of effort it would take to "do it right" is beyond what I'm willing to invest right now. Perhaps that will change, perhaps not. My thoughts were though that there's no perceived value with the component prices, and it feels almost like I'm being penalized for doing business with them. I could buy the same components seperately and have them installed for the same fee, and save money.

As for the components, space constraints and WAF factors drove me to a plasma :)

Thanks
 
M

Mort Corey

Senior Audioholic
Not to sidetrack your question, but don't put all this stuff in at once and leave out the subwoofer....you'll be sorry.....it's really a big part of the entire HT experience and no matter how good the bass is on the mains it just won't be the same. You can start with the one the supplier recommends with the package and always upgrade later :D (I'm sure the installers won't mind)

Mort

PS. You think you got trouble with WAF....I went with plasma and the wife didn't like the idea of wall mounting or on a table stand and wanted a plasma because she didn't like the looks of the big boxy RPTV's (DLP. LCD. CRT, etc). It cost me $6K to have a custom cabinet built to hold the plasma TV....go figure!!?????
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
If you have a knowledgeable installer with a good rep that will design, pre-wire, terminate and calibrate your system, consider yourself lucky to get 10%off. Remember you get what you pay for and there are allot of trunk slammers out there. I have seen many botched jobs from so-called experienced experts with certifications.

Good Luck
Ray
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I would definitely add that if you know of competitors in your area, then you should speak to them. There is no reason you should feel locked into a single company, even if they have done you well in the past. It is, after all, your money.

I know that when I do side work I still require that I purchase most of the equipment. I don't make much on equipment... but I make a bit, and then the rest is labor related. For stores though, their bread and butter is the equipment they sell you. That pays for storefronts, employees, etc. The labor is truly handled as labor and very rarely do they make much money off of labor. Some places do make more money than others of course.

The most difficult issue for sure is that very few retailers have a clue as to how to actually put a system together and have it work well. Many technicians are out there who can hook everything up, but have no real clue how to troubleshoot or identify real issues.

If you have found a top notch installer who stands behind their work and will provide you warranty, etc. then while you may be able to talk them down a bit, you aren't likely to get much more from them. You could, and should, shop elsewhere, but you really will want to get a feel for their quality, and perhaps some references.

I also know that actually finding a company that will install 100% your own, already owned, gear is often rare - and sometimes carries premium pricing. That is, you (may) pay the same hourly rate, but because they have no clue what they are walking into, extra time is quoted and required. If they'll do it at all. Then, if it doesn't work right, there is ZERO guarantee by the installers. If your plasma, or DVD player, or a speaker has an issue, then you are entirely on your own to deal with it. With a full package, you (typically) get full guarantee for 30 or 90 days on labor and install work. So, should a speaker flip out, many companies will just come in a deal with it for you at no charge.

Very nice when you don't want to lift a finger - but definitely tougher on your wallet.

Now, the bottom line: You aren't really buying a bunch of gear to walk out the door with. You aren't telling them what you want and having some clueless fool go and pull it off of shelves for you. You have an experienced sales guy who must put it all together in writing. This takes far more time than the 'box sale' which is more traditional. Hence, you already have additional employee time ($$$) that you are utilizing for your purchase that goes into 'overhead' costs. The bigger the job, the more time this takes, and the more money it costs the company. So, while it makes sense to you that if you have a $25,000 system that the company may give you a bigger price break over a $2,500.00 system, the reality is that their original pricing, and any discounts typically represent the added time necessary to engineer, specify, pull equipment, order gear, shipping, etc. that is related to overhead costs associated with larger jobs.

I get the wishful thinking though.

Today's sales reps. all have to deal with the client who says "I can get that for $1,000 less online." and the sales reps. often can only say "Then do it. But don't call us when you want it all set up."

I have dealt with it myself when someone said they could buy some displays for 25% less than I was selling for online with a $20K system. I told them that they should consider someone else then if they didn't like my pricing. Today's retail doesn't compete with online for parts pricing, they simply work towards the best service and overall experience.
 
RLA

RLA

Audioholic Chief
Good advice BMX,

If by chance I ever have to install gear that I don’t sell and warranty I will have the client sign a waver. There is no way I am going to come back out and un-terminate a system for a defective product purchased on-line, then re-terminate and recalibrate for free. Good installers are hard to come by, If you have one trying to nickel and dime them may insult them.;)

I will add that the install can and will determine the performance you achieve with your equipment. You may spend 10-15k on new high end gear then have it installed incorrectly in relationship to your rooms acoustical properties. This happens more often then not, and in the case of pre-wire if its in the wrong locations will be a bear to correct.

Meanwhile you neighbor spends $5k on gear and then has it installed correctly, guess the system that will have better overall performance.;) I am sure that BMX has heard this as much as I have ;)
 
M

MikeyB

Enthusiast
Great posts guys - this is an area that these forums don't cover often. It's almost always about a single component, or at most which two work together the best. My whole goal here was to get more input on "how the system works", because it didn't jive with what I expected. Thanks for helping to set me straight.

As for what I'm going to do, I'm not sure - I really like these people so I'm probably going to have them go ahead with 85% of it... and then I'm going to enjoy the hell out it!!

Thanks again,
Mike
 
Buckeyefan 1

Buckeyefan 1

Audioholic Ninja
RLA and BMX are the guys to talk to on this topic. My .02 says that equipment is just the tip of the iceberg. Installation and wiring takes great care. Properly mounting an expensive flat screen to a wall, and professionally run wires through walls (to code) also makes a room "polished."

Now, once you get everything wired, calibrated, and installed, you have sound tweaking. Sometimes installers have a different idea what sounds good compared to what you prefer. If I were you, I'd get familiar with the equipment, and learn how to tweak it to your preference. I enjoy dialing in a system, and knowing how to quickly change it for different sources/listening levels.

The list of equipment looks good. Have you demo'd other speakers? Make sure you take some favorite cd's, and really listen to the midrange/treble portion. Some speakers have trouble with female or male voices. Also really get familiar with the center channel. If you run your system all the time like I do with tv, your center channel will get a workout. A center channel that excels with voices, and midbass without being harsh is a must have. Listen to the center by itself when demoing speakers. It's going to do most of the work for movies and tv.

Finally, get the best subwoofer you can afford. It's a must have for movies. It can make or break a system.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Buckeyefan 1 said:
Finally, get the best subwoofer you can afford. It's a must have for movies. It can make or break a system.
This is something I flat out agree with wholeheartedly! It is also something you may want to check out the used market for. Audiogon / eBay both offer excellent sources to find/luck into some very (VERY!) nice subwoofers at times if you keep your eye out and your wallet open.

I managed to trade up from a Definitive Technology 15" sub to a Velodyne HGS-10 and then a Velodyne HGS-18 in the course of a year and I think my total outlay was about $800 or so in the end. I will happily trade my HGS-18 for a 1812 Overture.... or maybe a DD-18. But, that's about it. A sub that hits hard, yet smooth, at subsonic levels, is hard to describe. Especially in a package that is not in the least bit boomy.

I went through 4 subs before getting the HGS - and the 10" model completely blew everything before it away, at every level, including the 15" Def-Tech.
 
M

MikeyB

Enthusiast
Good idea - I've created a new thread in the speaker forum to gather some advice about subwoofers - I'm sad that this particular vendor doesn't carry more brands!

Thanks again
 
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