Tone In / Out

[flyty55]

I have a Harman Kardon AVR140.

I'm still not clear on the "tone in /out" feature. It's states in the manual that when using an analog source to utilize tone out so the signal won't be digitized. Why? Wouldn't that just run the treble and bass flat? Maybe someone could elaborate a little more?
Thanks.

 

[MDS]

I have a Harman Kardon AVR140.

I'm still not clear on the "tone in /out" feature. It's states in the manual that when using an analog source to utilize tone out so the signal won't be digitized. Why? Wouldn't that just run the treble and bass flat? Maybe someone could elaborate a little more?
Thanks.

I downloaded the manual because I've never heard the term 'tone in/out'.

In effect, it would be what most manufacturers refer to as 'direct' mode - the analog signal is passed straight to the amplifier with no modifications whatsoever. The result though is that bass management will not be applied because like most every other AVR, it performs bass management in the digital domain.

If Tone In is set, you can adjust bass and treble, but if the source is analog, it will be converted to digital, the adjustments made, and then back to analog before amplification.

If Tone Out is set it will be 'flat' (and the manual even say so). This is different than other AVRs where normally if you want the output flat, you have to specifically set bass and treble to 0 (but it's the default anyway if you haven't made any changes). It could be a useful feature if you wanted to compare flat vs adjusting bass and treble. Instead of having to constantly change bass from say +2 to 0 to get back to flat, you could set Tone In and adjust the bass, then switch to flat just by setting Tone Out instead of changing the +2 back to 0.

 

[Alex2507]

I downloaded the manual because I've never heard the term 'tone in/out'.

In effect, it would be what most manufacturers refer to as 'direct' mode - the analog signal is passed straight to the amplifier with no modifications whatsoever. The result though is that bass management will not be applied because like most every other AVR, it performs bass management in the digital domain.

If Tone In is set, you can adjust bass and treble, but if the source is analog, it will be converted to digital, the adjustments made, and then back to analog before amplification.

If Tone Out is set it will be 'flat' (and the manual even say so). This is different than other AVRs where normally if you want the output flat, you have to specifically set bass and treble to 0 (but it's the default anyway if you haven't made any changes). It could be a useful feature if you wanted to compare flat vs adjusting bass and treble. Instead of having to constantly change bass from say +2 to 0 to get back to flat, you could set Tone In and adjust the bass, then switch to flat just by setting Tone Out instead of changing the +2 back to 0.

I didn't realize that Tone Out would knock out the bass management
but I've only had the rec'r for 6 years now. These things take time.

 

[flyty55]

So I guess the best is just to leave it set at "tone in"?? Would there ever be a time when you would want to run bass and treble flat? I think I'm missing something here.

 

[Alex2507]

So I guess the best is just to leave it set at "tone in"?? Would there ever be a time when you would want to run bass and treble flat? I think I'm missing something here.

Beyond running the bass and treble flat it disables your crossover and sends a full frequency signal to your speakers. I guess you could accomplish the same thing with Tone IN and setting your Speakers to LARGE and your Sub to NONE ... just in case you have speakers that can take it. Tone OUT is a more direct way to do that.

Some guys just like that 'pure direct' thing for music.

 

[flyty55]

Thanks. I guess kind of like the old days when everything was stereo with no subs.

 

[Alex2507]

Thanks. I guess kind of like the old days when everything was stereo with no subs.

I've heard viable arguments that the pre-pro stage of a rec'r can and will change the way music sounds so with most music not really going way low and with speakers being able to reproduce 35Hz to 40Hz, going the Tone OUT/Pure Direct route bears further consideration for me at least.

I just wish there was like a pill you could take to make
you understand all the various functions this equipment has.

• Wait ...

I just checked the Tone IN/OUT function with my DVD player as the source with a Coax Digital connection and Tone Out eliminates the Bass and Treble setting/makes it flat but the rec'r's x-over is still enabled sending LF to the sub. I have an H/K AVR 430 with the update.

Like I said ... these things take time. I just checked it with an analog source (the red and white audio inputs) and the same holds true: the bass management is still working regardless of the IN or OUT setting. So for me it just disables the Bass and Treble controls.

I'm glad I checked. Thanks for bringing it up ... and welcome to the forum.

 

[flyty55]

I just wish there was like a pill you could take to make
you understand all the various functions this equipment has.

I know what you mean. My manual is almost wore out from flipping back and forth in it. I see there is a updated one now. The first one was a little vague in some sections.

 

[Alex2507]

I know what you mean. My manual is almost wore out from flipping back and forth in it. I see there is a updated one now. The first one was a little vague in some sections.

Without looking into it I bet that's an update for your rec'r and the accompanying manual. I updated mine and then never got around to really absorbing the new manual and understanding the few things I noticed that were different.

One thing I did do that I thought was worth the effort is to stop using the E-Z Set thing. The mic in the remote is +/- 3db and that can easily be a 4 or 5 decibel difference in channels.

 

[flyty55]

Without looking into it I bet that's an update for your rec'r and the accompanying manual.

One thing I did do that I thought was worth the effort is to stop using the E-Z Set thing. The mic in the remote is +/- 3db and that can easily be a 4 or 5 decibel difference in channels.

What do you mean by update for my receiver? I don't think mine is capable of such a thing. I'm sure I don't have E-Z set or a mic in the remote. Mine must be and older model or the AVR 140 maybe never ever had these features??

 

[Alex2507]

What do you mean by update for my receiver? I don't think mine is capable of such a thing.

Okay, now I'm reading your manual. Right you are, there is no available update for that rec'r. I see what you mean by 'updated' manual :

http://www.harmankardon.com/EN-US/Products/Pages/ProductSupportDetails.aspx?PID=AVR+140

I'm sure I don't have E-Z set or a mic in the remote. Mine must be and older model or the AVR 140 maybe never ever had these features??

Right again.

If you click on the 2nd product info pdf you can scroll down
and see that every other H/K rec'r at the time had E-Z Set.
Page 23 and 34 of your manual talks about setting the Output Level Adjustment by ear or with a test disc and SPL meter.

Since I was already reading the manual I checked into the Tone IN/OUT thing on page 18. It only talks about the tone controls being in or out of the signal path and makes no mention of it affecting the bass management abilities.

I'm not sure *again* but I think maybe the web page was updated on Sept. 1, 2009. I doubt all those documents got updated then. Sorry to have given you so much bad info all at once. Usually I know better than to start running off like that with generalizations ... but I'm sort of familiar with H/K rec'rs of that era and yours happens to not fit in. One of my buddies has an H/K AVR 235 (no updates for that either) that I have set up for him a couple of times and another friend has an AVR 635 that he has had updated as I have my AVR 430.

 

[flyty55]

Page 23 and 34 of your manual talks about setting the Output Level Adjustment by ear or with a test disc and SPL meter.

Sorry to have given you so much bad info all at once. ::

No worries.

I do use an SPL meter and run the test tones. Seems to work for me.

Actually my HK is in the repair shop right now. Center channel sounds strange (always has) like the voices are coming through an empty paper roll tube. Believe me, I have tried everything. Swapping speakers, Check for blown tweeter, etc. etc. etc. Not a believer in extended warranties but glad I have it now.

 

[Alex2507]

When you get it back would you let me know what the problem was?
I'm just curious about that stuff.

 

[flyty55]

I will send you a PM.

Could be a while yet. Sent it away 2 weeks ago and haven't heard the status of it. If they need to order parts, well, could take some time. I miss not having it.