Tone control comparison

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ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
If you had a high (100wpc) and medium (60wpc) power amp (of similar design/make for arguments sake) with same bass control levels (+/-10 dB) at the same low-to-moderate listening level would the higher rated amp be able to pump out stronger (or better quality) bass than the lower rated amp?
I was just curious because I was weighing whether to upgrade my 60wpc amp to get better bass response at lower volumes. (I have several different makes of speakers (Polk, JBL, B&W) to test my 60wpc amp with and the bass in all of the speakers are fairly ugly at low volumes. You'd think one company could design a great speaker, I mean it's not rocket science. I worked as a rocket engineer for the military and speaker building can not be as difficult than what I had to do.)
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
Let's start with this: If you double the watts to the speaker you gain three decibels of loudness, which is barely noticeable. To double the loudness, you would need about 10 decibels, which requires ten times the watts.

Normal listening levels generally use very little wattage, say less than two watts on the average. Let's use 1.5 watts as an average, and that would most likely be quite loud. So, most of the time, both amps would be equal.

When peaks, or extremely heavy bass, come into play, the watts get drained pretty quickly. An apparent doubling of the loudness requires about 10x the power, or 10 decibels. So, that would mean you're using about 15 watts now.

Twice as loud again, or another 10 decibels, and we're up to 150 watts. So, these can build up fairly quickly and you can see that either amp you mentioned would be outclassed.

But, the good thing is that in the real world, these are fairly well controlled and the only time you'll ever notice any difference is in peaks and even then you might not notice, depending on how loud you're playing your music. And, in the two amps you mention, the difference is less than 2 decibels.

'Of course, if you crank the bass, which puts more demand on the amp, you'll run out of power quicker.

But, as far as speakers are concerned, low-level listening situations are more affected by our own physiology than either speakers or electronics. At low levels we don't hear highs and lows as efficiently as midrange tones. That's why everything sound sflat. Check out the fletcher-munson studies. These were the basis for "loudness" buttons on older receivers, which varied in their application but generally boosted the bass at low listening levels.

But, ultimately, I'm a firm believer that you can never have too much power, if one uses their head and ears.
 
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ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
That's a great explanation. I wasn't sure how wattage was used up in an amplifier as a signal was sent through it and how peaks in the signal (dynamics) quantitatively effected the wattage. I never knew where to go to study this fundamental stereo stuff. Guess I'll have to start looking.
You say "twice as loud". So normal listening level + 10 dB + 10 dB and you're up to 150W? What kind of amp can handle that? Aren't amps over the 150wpc range extremely expensive (>$1000) and are far and few between? So all these so-called great, well-made vintage amps at 60wpc/80wpc/100wpc lack the power to produce the adequate dB a lot of the time (depending on the music you're listening to)? What equations and laws are you using to correlate dB and wattage? Thanks.
 
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markw

Audioholic Overlord
The way speakers convert electricity to acoustic energy is a figure called "sensitivity" and is reflected as a decibel/watt figure and most are between the upper 80's and mid 90's. Of course, there are always outliers.

The higher the number, the less power is needed to drive it. ie: Sensitivity: 90 dB (2.83 v @ 1 M) ...and 90 db is pretty durn loud!

Amps in the 100 watts range are out there and, depending on one's personal scale, don't have to be extremely expensive. But, then again, people pay fortunes for "flea power" tube amps that put out a handful of watts, too.

FWIW, most of those inexpensive receivers you see advertised as putting out 100 watts are simply wishing and using marketing magic to over-inflate their actual wattage. This site has links on that .

Remembering the average listening level and taking into consideration the speakers sensitivity, you can get pretty decent sound from a receiver well under 100 watts.

In my basement man cave I'm currently running an old 30 wpc amp (Marantz 2230 from the early 70's) into a pair of JBL speakers from the same era and that system outputs higher levels of robust, clean music than I can stand.

You want to take those numbers on amps with a grain of salt. They cannot be counted on to reflect the actual watts being used.and, even then, they would only reflect an average, not a peak. And, even then, remember that the actual decibel level depends on the sensitivity of the speaker, not so much the volume control
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Note that when using tone controls in the boost position, you are adding significant distortion..
So if the amplifier is already running @ its limits the likelihood of damaging clipping distortion is possible, which can destroy loudspeakers..

Just my $0.00.. ;)
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I was just curious because I was weighing whether to upgrade my 60wpc amp to get better bass response at lower volumes. (I have several different makes of speakers (Polk, JBL, B&W) to test my 60wpc amp with and the bass in all of the speakers are fairly ugly at low volumes. You'd think one company could design a great speaker, I mean it's not rocket science. I worked as a rocket engineer for the military and speaker building can not be as difficult than what I had to do.)
Human hearing isn't consistently sensitive through the entire audible range and if your bass is bad/weak at low SPL, it's a combination of hearing, possible speaker inadequacies and acoustics.

Re: speaker building not being as difficult as what you did- listening to speakers isn't objective- what you worked on was.
 
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Codifus

Junior Audioholic
....
But, ultimately, I'm a firm believer that you can never have too much power, if one uses their head and ears.
Exactly, and you start by moving your speakers around until you find their sweet spot in the room. That is the first, and best, tone control.

The tone controls on your amplifier should be used, if at all, to only slightly enhance an already good setup. And, because you have less need for tone controls you will;

1. Make your system go louder and stronger because the amplifier is no longer wasting alot of its power boosting bass.

2. Get a more natural bass response with better harmonics. None of that one-note-bass sound.

CD
 
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ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
I am learning a lot from this discussion. And you guys are very good at explaining these things. Yes, I recently got into integrated amps (Sansui AU-517) and I found new enjoyment in my music (power, detail, etc.) as compared to my commercial do-it-all 1995 JVC receiver. And I do experiment with speaker positions (laterally and vertically) to try and find a sweet spot that optimizes the sound in the room (minimize the reflections and find good speaker separation distance). But I guess the B&W speakers (4 ohm, 88 dB) I just purchased are acting like Jekyll & Hyde: they are giving me a bastard of a time at low to moderate levels and sound pretty phenomenal at high volumes (albeit an extremely small footprint) which I can't tolerate every day. Vocals sound like they're coming from a tin can at lower volume but superb at high volume. So I was trying to figure out if there was something I could change wrt amplification to change the way these sound but I think I have my answer now. I'll probably have to move on to different speakers once again. Low income can really limit your choices when looking for near to perfect audio, too.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I am learning a lot from this discussion. And you guys are very good at explaining these things. Yes, I recently got into integrated amps (Sansui AU-517) and I found new enjoyment in my music (power, detail, etc.) as compared to my commercial do-it-all 1995 JVC receiver. And I do experiment with speaker positions (laterally and vertically) to try and find a sweet spot that optimizes the sound in the room (minimize the reflections and find good speaker separation distance). But I guess the B&W speakers (4 ohm, 88 dB) I just purchased are acting like Jekyll & Hyde: they are giving me a bastard of a time at low to moderate levels and sound pretty phenomenal at high volumes (albeit an extremely small footprint) which I can't tolerate every day. Vocals sound like they're coming from a tin can at lower volume but superb at high volume. So I was trying to figure out if there was something I could change wrt amplification to change the way these sound but I think I have my answer now. I'll probably have to move on to different speakers once again. Low income can really limit your choices when looking for near to perfect audio, too.
Post your room's dimensions and describe all of the surfaces accurately. You may have a standing wave issue caused by the room's dimensions and ratios.
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
I am just a firm believer in order to judge any speaker, or to get the most out of your speakers you need at least a 200 watts per channel amp. Hook up 200+ watts and you'll hear a difference. Then you'll know why you paid that money for your speakers. Good amplification will sound excellent at all volume levels. When you audition audio gear you just don't go and turn it up to see what it can do, you start at a low volume level and slowly work your way up to hear how it sounds on all volume levels. At high volume anything wil make a lot of noise.
 
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C

Codifus

Junior Audioholic
I am just a firm believer in order to judge any speaker, or to get the most out of your speakers you need at least a 200 watts per channel amp. Hook up 200+ watts and you'll hear a difference. Then you'll know why you paid that money for your speakers. Good amplification will sound excellent at all volume levels. When you audition audio gear you just don't go and turn it up to see what it can do, you start at a low volume level and slowly work your way up to hear how it sounds on all volume levels. At high volume anything wil make a lot of noise.
I beg to diagree. I recently upgraded from an amp that puts out 100 watts to the EP2000, 750-1000 watts.

The main difference I heard was loudness. Also, of course, the speakers were much more comfortable playing at hi levels. The character of the speakers remained essentially the same, however.

CD
 
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ifsixwasnin9

Audioholic
When you audition audio gear you just don't go and turn it up to see what it can do, you start at a low volume level and slowly work your way up to hear how it sounds on all volume levels
I know that. To me a speaker has to sound realistic and grab me at low volume or else I'm really not satisfied. (Something like the Dynaco A25 is very good at low volume.) You can only listen to loud music for so long. Speakers like this are hard to find. The B&Ws I just got are really odd at low volume whereas my vintage L100s and Polks show some life at low volume but they never reach the definition that the B&W has at high volume. I've been buying more and more gear and testing them and haven't really found a happy medium. My bedroom is very open with the roof as the ceiling, maybe 14x16x13H and there is just the right amount of space for low or loud music.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I know that. To me a speaker has to sound realistic and grab me at low volume or else I'm really not satisfied. (Something like the Dynaco A25 is very good at low volume.) You can only listen to loud music for so long. Speakers like this are hard to find. The B&Ws I just got are really odd at low volume whereas my vintage L100s and Polks show some life at low volume but they never reach the definition that the B&W has at high volume. I've been buying more and more gear and testing them and haven't really found a happy medium. My bedroom is very open with the roof as the ceiling, maybe 14x16x13H and there is just the right amount of space for low or loud music.
Your B & W speakers are broken, so you have no right to comment on them.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
I'm not sure what to make of you yet. I don't want to be rude, but your first post is offensive and chocked full of language I'd not expect from a competent engineer. Insulting an entire profession that should be respected in a forum like this is not the road to getting good advice and help.
 

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