"Tonal imbalance" Biamping Denon 3805

[Johnny Canuck]

Biamping Denon 3805- Waste of Time!!

After reading the article on biamping the Denon 3805, and trying it, going back and forth a few times I find the SQ not as good. On all speakers, even the rear surrounds. The hum coming from the fronts is just plain annoying as well. When i questioned the local high end shop here in town they said they tried it...they used the words "brutal" and "tonal imbalance" when discribing what they heard. This is a reputable store selling only the best...Rotel, B&W, Denon, NAD, etc...They said the amps used on the Denon zone 2 and zone 3 (as with all receivers) are nowhere near as gooda quality as the fronts, thus creating degradation and imbalance. . I live in a smaller condo and am probably a little closer to the speakers than i should be. i will be moving to a house soon ...I am running Polk RTI 12's (which BTW I still am not sure on) and they supposedly can handle lots of low end. I did notice much more bass using Zone 3 and turning it up to +10. I recall the helicopter and ensuing drums on "The Wall" as awesome...however, when I went back to regular wiring, SQ was improved. My technologically challenged girlfriend even heard the difference.

I since have purchase a used NAD 2200 for $200 and had it running the fronts biwired, WAY too bright...now using the NAD on the lows and I like it. Still finding these RTI12's a little weak on bass. Not "earth shaking' or "chest pounding" as some say on the Polk site. Thinking of upgrading to the LSI 15's or even Paradigm Studio 60's....anyways.....

My question is to those who have tried this technique, or even Gene if he would be so kind to respond. Am I hearing things or is there truly a degradation in SQ biamping with Zone 3? The hum is there of course but I mean general SQ? Also, if there is a degradation, why not just use the tone controls and add bass? What's worse? I guess I am just looking to get the most out of these RTI12's. i feel i paid $1500 for speakers with VERY weak bass or just maybe, i am expecting too much. The highs and mids are fabulous. I do have a sub Polk PSW404.

I apologize in advance to anyone who may have read another post I had about these 12's...

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I am really surprised nobody responded to this. Lots have tried it here. Just wondering if anyone else notices sound quality degradation when biamping using an unused zone amplifier in the same receiver?

And if so, why not bypass the tone defeat and use the bass tone control?

 

[flyv65]

I've done the bi-amping myself, and can report no obvious hum or sound degradation even at high levels-but I can also say I'm not "wowed" by the added 3 zone channel amps, and will be adding a separate amp for at least the fronts this year. Still, it was a cheap experiment, and (I think) better than just running standard.

Bryan...sorry it's not working for you; although you're not the only one to have complained of this symptom...

 

[Johnny Canuck]

FlyV65:

I would like to know how YOU got it to work with no hum and everybody else has it. We have tried everything. I personally stripped my system down to nothing and only had front speakers and a very high quality rca interconnect going from the preout to the DVD jack. No component cables, nothing. I even have a Tripplite Powerbar 10 so it's clean power.

maybe you have not turned the zone 3 volume up . It is audible from +5 and up. And if you don't turn it up what's the point?

 

[flyv65]

FlyV65:

maybe you have not turned the zone 3 volume up . It is audible from +5 and up. And if you don't turn it up what's the point?

I've got the zone 3 running to the bass cones, but they're only at +2: I didn't like that much more bass with my system. Be that as it may, I've cranked the reccy up to -2dB with no audible hum-I don't know what to tell you, other than I'm *not* the only person on this list who doesn't have a complaint with the "bi-amping"...it's just not completely what I'm looking for.

Bryan...p'haps you're pushing it too hard, eh?...

 

[Johnny Canuck]

I would be interested to hear any others who have biamped the 3805 and do not have the hum. i have researched this to death and if you have it connected properly there is hum. Period. No getting around it. That's right from the horse's mouth at Denon Canada.

Sorry Fly. You obviously do not have it properly connected and /or not using the receiver correctly.

you said -2???? obviously, you can't hear anything at -2. try going to +10 or higher, then please tell us if you hear it or not. And if you don't, please explain your hook up method and system. Much appreciated.

 

[Seismo]

Hi,

Same here....I have the HUM! I'm driving Paradigm Studio 100 v3 and using zone 2 at 0 to +2 db level (depending on the source). This hum is bugging me and I am curious also to find why some receivers seems to be hum free.

Seismo

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Seismo.....my guess is the ones who don't have the hum have speakers with no low end..so really, they re wasting their time trying to get bass by biamping. I have Polk RTi12's, 3 bass drivers...and besides the hum, overall "tonal balance" is lacking IMO when "ghetto biamping" this way. Have you tried going back to original set up after biamping? just for kicks, try it. I added a NAD amp to my lows on the fronts and am much happier. I too thought this was a great idea...as I read it, "another 120W to my fronts". Really surprises me how a site like Audioholics recommends this. The disadvantages out weigh the advantages. Hum, and audio degradation. The other zones aren't digital, and guaranteed, not as good SQ. If they were, the Denon 3805 would be worth much much more than this!! Nothing is free!

 

[flyv65]

I would be interested to hear any others who have biamped the 3805 and do not have the hum. i have researched this to death and if you have it connected properly there is hum. Period. No getting around it. That's right from the horse's mouth at Denon Canada.

Then clearly you're wasting your time even bothering to try the bi-amping procedure detailed on this website: and Lord knows, Denon Canada is infallible so this no doubt a sign I've screwed up somewhere.

Sorry Fly. You obviously do not have it properly connected and /or not using the receiver correctly.

I defer to your superior knowledge.

you said -2???? obviously, you can't hear anything at -2. try going to +10 or higher, then please tell us if you hear it or not. And if you don't, please explain your hook up method and system. Much appreciated.

Actually, what I said was "+2", and that was in reference to the Zone 3 volume (which is slaved to the master volume). I can't conceive of the need to overemphasize the bass as much as +10 would seem to indicate, but then again I appreciate a more balanced sound from my music and movies, evidently. By the way, at a master volume of +10 (tried it just now to confirm my memory) I still couldn't pick out a hum, but then the blood seeping from my shattered eardrums could've concealed it.

FWIW, I sem to recall Hawke had an entry on a thread called "denon 3805 biamping and multiroom", or something very similar to that, which was the exact procedure I used to hook mine up.

Bryan...no hum my friend's 4802, either-maybe he's an idiot too...

 

[Duffinator]

I have my 3805 bi-amped to my Mirage 595is speakers that have a 6 ohm load. Let me start by saying that I was not overwhelmed by doing the bi-amping like I had hoped. I had a friend over to give me a second opinion. We ran them back and forth several times and could tell a slight difference with my speakers being a little more detailed sounding and a bit louder. Mirage recommends crossing the speaker wires which I questioned but this was the configuration where we noticed the slight improvement in sound. Not crossing the wires gave a muddied sound. Another member suggested the crossing the speaker wires was to isolate the grounds. Whatever it was it worked. Interstingly enough on Mirage's newer speakers they do not recommend crossing the speaker wires. I followed the revised directions EXACTLY as published and have had no problems. My volume adjustment is at +2 like recommended. My purpose of trying the bi-amp setup was to get more power to the speakers and NOT to use it as an active crossover (getting more bass out of the speakers). I'm also using zone 2 out to another amp for multiroom distribution. In the end I left the speakers bi-amped. It wasn't a huge difference but what the heck. Besides after reading all the articles on this site I saved lots of $$$ not buying the Kimber Kable speaker wire so I could easily afford the extra cables I made myself.

As for the hum I do have a slight hum with the bi-amp setup. But I have a slight hum without the bi-amp and doing the bi-amping didn't seem to make it any worse. When I say hum I'm talking about having my ear up to the speaker and hearing a slight noise. Move more than 1 foot away from the speaker and you cannot hear it. That's not a problem for me. Johnny, how loud is your hum?

I question Johnny's comments about the amps in the non left and right front channels being of lesser quality. And not being able to distribute digital audio through zone 2 and 3 is more a system configuration issue verses the amps being of lesser quality and not wanting to do so. Maybe Clint can comment on that.

 

[WmAx]

I would be interested to hear any others who have biamped the 3805 and do not have the hum. i have researched this to death and if you have it connected properly there is hum. Period. No getting around it. That's right from the horse's mouth at Denon Canada.

Sorry Fly. You obviously do not have it properly connected and /or not using the receiver correctly.

you said -2???? obviously, you can't hear anything at -2. try going to +10 or higher, then please tell us if you hear it or not. And if you don't, please explain your hook up method and system. Much appreciated.

Have you tried isolation transformers between the pre-outs and line level inputs?

-Chris

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Fly. Why so defensive partner? I didn't call you an idiot.

I am talking about turning Zone 3 to +10. Not the master volume to +10!! I have never had my master volume to -20, never mind +10!!!

Hum is heard from 5 feet away on my system. Turn it to +10 in zone 3, the bass signal only. GUARANTEED YOU HEAR HUM. even at -40 on the master.

And yes, I have an isolation transformer. I have a Tripplite Powerbar10. Top of the line. This is not a ground loop issue or an isolation transformer issue. it is simply due to the fact we are asking a product to do far more than what it is built to do. asking too much.

Fly, i never insinuated you were stupid. I have tried everything to eliminate hum and get the most bass out of these speakers, Polk RTi 12's, I feel should be better than they are for $1700. This welfare way of biamping is just not acceptable.

 

[WmAx]

And yes, I have an isolation transformer. I have a Tripplite Powerbar10. Top of the line.

Are you saying that the Powerbar10 is the isolation transformer? As far as I know that product has no audio isolation transformer throughputs.

I mean an audio line level isolation transformer. If that amp is humming, and it' s not a ground loop issue -- it sounds like it's either defective or incompetantly designed.....

-Chris

 

[BeerMe]

I think you guys have it all wrong!!!

In the review of the 3805 Clint mentions that the 3805 is not made to do this and i quote-

"we have seen some complaints of noise (hiss) from some people who have done the bi-amping with specifically the AVR-3805. Accordingly, Denon is not "officially" endorsing this practice on this specific model."

The Bi-amping proceedure is for the 5803, it can be done for the 3805 but it's not made to do it. My advice if your not happy with the results then buy another power amplifier.

In my experience with any purchase is make sure the product does what you want it to do. If you want something buy the the one you want that meets your expectations, try not compromise (within reason, I want a 5803 but I only had a 3805 budget).

John

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Beerme...

thank you. Clint said there was noise, and i hear it. So do 99.9% of the people. Fly says he doesn't hear it so i am asking him how he has his system wired and set up.

This post was originally to advise people of my experiences biamping this way. it's not all it's cracked up to be. You sacrifice SQ for a little more bottom end. Want to know if others feel the same.

I did buy a NAD power amp. no complaints.

Can anybody tell me what the difference is between biamping this way and using the tone/bass controls to add bass?

 

[slmcdonald7]

An alternative approach . . .

This probably won't help, but here it is regardless:

I have a pair of Paradigm Monitor 11s bi-amped from the 3805, and I experience zero hum. Here's the difference between my set-up and yours:

I am using the Zone 2 outputs to power speakers in my office, and am using the Surround A outputs (in conjunction with the main outputs) to bi-amp my fronts.

Your situation may not allow you to do the same, but if you can, hooking up your main speakers this way will eliminate the hum while still delivering the power you're looking for through bi-amping.

Just a thought.

-Stephen

 

[flyv65]

Fly. Why so defensive partner? I didn't call you an idiot.

True, but I took your tone as more than a bit condecending-Since no slight was intended, please accept my apologies Johnny C.; the spoken word is much more expressive than pick up online from time to time.

I am talking about turning Zone 3 to +10. Not the master volume to +10!! I have never had my master volume to -20, never mind +10!!!

Hum is heard from 5 feet away on my system. Turn it to +10 in zone 3, the bass signal only. GUARANTEED YOU HEAR HUM. even at -40 on the master.

I don't doubt you on this Johnny-I just haven't tried the Zone 3 volume that high...and I doubt I will. I'm pushing Spendor C5e fronts, and depending on the music I'm listening to I like the balance best at between 0 and +3, so I see no reason to push it to +10. What kind of stuff (music or movies) have you been listening to?

And yes, I have an isolation transformer. I have a Tripplite Powerbar10. Top of the line. This is not a ground loop issue or an isolation transformer issue. it is simply due to the fact we are asking a product to do far more than what it is built to do. asking too much.

Fly, i never insinuated you were stupid. I have tried everything to eliminate hum and get the most bass out of these speakers, Polk RTi 12's, I feel should be better than they are for $1700. This welfare way of biamping is just not acceptable.

Like I said...my apologies for mis-interpreting your post. My spendors retail for just under $1700 so I put them in the same category as your Polks for purposes of comparison/evaluation. In all honesty, I don't really think that "bi-amping" of any kind is as effective as upping the wpc to the speaker. IIRC, those Polks use a pair(?) of 7" woofers, right? Well, we're really not putting 240 watts to each speaker with this method: there is nominally 120 wpc (regularly) but it's more like 77 wpc if you drive all the channels. Factor in the crossovers and we're not doing much more than we would've before. Sounds like what you want is a 200 wpc amp to tighten up the bass.

Bryan...startin' over, eh?...

 

[Johnny Canuck]

slmcdonald. Please explain that again!!!! you are using surround A?

can i do this and still use my NAD amp on the fronts as well? right now I have my NAD on my lows in the front...not much difference

Fly...apology accepted. sometimes tone is misinterpreted on these chat rooms. Now that i read my post again, it does sound condescending. Sorry for that!!

 

[slmcdonald7]

slmcdonald. Please explain that again!!!! you are using surround A?

Yes, I am using Surround A. While in law school, my wife and I are renting a cute little colonial house that doesn’t provide adequate room for a surround set-up.

I speakers in my office, however, that I wanted to use with the Zone 2 output. Thus, I set up my speakers as such:

Main fronts: Paradigm 11's bi-amped with the Surround A outputs as well as the main front outputs. According to the help line at Denon, Surround A outputs provide the same quality signal (digital) and the same amount of power as the main front outputs. As I understand it, Zone 2 isn't capable of sending a digital signal (I may be mistaken on this), so this may account for some of the hum you hear, I'm not sure.

Office: Zone 2 outputs.

You may not be able to do this (if you have an extensive surround set-up), but if you can, it might help your problem.

As to whether you can bi-amp the 3805 and still use your other amplifier, I'm not sure. You would be better off asking someone who has a little more technical knowledge than I do.

Hope this helped.

- Stephen

 

[Johnny Canuck]

Stephen

Thank you for responding. i am using surround speakers so i guess i can not do your set up.

My NAD power amp has no gain control. I did like the fact when I had the 3805 biamped with zone 3 amp I could turn up bass. I guess if my NAD had gain control i would have this flexibility. I was asking the question to you to see if there was a way to have bass control somehow without having the hum associated with biamping.

Your set up makes sense though. if you don't use the rear surrounds you can use those amps , being digital, to get top SQ.

Any others who have tried this?