To amp or not ... that is the question.

Willee

Willee

Audiophyte
I have a Onkyo TX-8020 receiver that I am using with my turntable and CD player.
I just dont get that "presence" of sound from my system that I have heard from other systems.
That crisp resonating "alive" sound that is hard to describe but you know it when you hear it.
Would adding an more powerful amplifier like the Yamaha A-32 possibly produce what I am after?
Speakers are Klipsch VF36 floor towers.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
While Klipsch usually fibs on their Sensitivity spec by a few dB, they are still usually considered high sensitivity being 90dB and above. The likelihood that your receiver cannot drive these adequately is pretty small as most listeners don’t push the SPL much above -10dB at the most... so not even using 1 full watt of power!
The question then becomes:
How loud do you listen?
How far do you sit from your front Speakers?
What does ‘alive’ sound like?

Ok, to be fair that last one is a trick... but you brought it up. :) Amps do not create Sound Quality. Speakers do. Speakers, and their interaction with the room they are in.

First recommendations:
Use an online SPL Calculator to determine your needs.
Look hard at how your Speakers are set up in your room. How close to the front wall? Side walls? Toed in or perpendicular? Tweeter at ear level when you are seated? Everything.
 
Willee

Willee

Audiophyte
Thank you for you help and reply.
room.jpg
I had a normal setup in my Van years ago and when I added a amplifier it really came alive with a rich full sound.

Here is a photo of my setup ...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Oh boy. I don't think 10 amps will help you with the way you have that set up. Your tweeters should both be at ear level and away from the walls. That right speaker is way off. You need to reconfigure that layout. That alone will offer some significant improvements
 
Willee

Willee

Audiophyte
Thanks for any help that is offered.
So I need to move the right speaker?
Like down to the floor and possibly between the two tables?
I will rearange and post another photo.
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
I have a Onkyo TX-8020 receiver that I am using with my turntable and CD player.
I just dont get that "presence" of sound from my system that I have heard from other systems.
That crisp resonating "alive" sound that is hard to describe but you know it when you hear it.
Would adding an more powerful amplifier like the Yamaha A-32 possibly produce what I am after?
Speakers are Klipsch VF36 floor towers.
No an amp wont give you that. Luckily, the solution is cheaper than an amp.

Better setup of the system will give you what you want.

This piece of furniture needs a new home.

Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 7.59.59 AM.png


Set up both front speakers like this one, but ideally bring them out from the wall about 12 inches.

Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 8.01.06 AM.png


I dont know what this is (some kind of sound bar?) but don't use it. Sell it on Craigslist or move it to another room.

Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 8.02.07 AM.png



Do you have a center channel? If not, that is probably okay in this room. Looks like you sit in a good spot, in front of the TV, in the middle between the speakers, so you should be okay without a center channel. (Of course make sure you tell the Onkyo that you do not have a center channel.)

---

Finally, a sub woofer is something to consider, as are a few acoustic panels (from a place like GIK Acoustics), if you are ready to invest in improving the sound in the room.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for any help that is offered.
So I need to move the right speaker?
Like down to the floor and possibly between the two tables?
I will rearange and post another photo.
I'd move the whole kit n kaboodle to the left so you have some room between the side wall and the right speaker, get that speaker on the floor so it's at the same level as the left one and if possible pull both speakers out, away from the wall behind them. Speakers like a little room to breathe and your right speaker is suffocating.

Ideally you want to try and make a triangle between your seat and the 2 main speakers.

Placement-of-Rear-Speakers.png
 
Willee

Willee

Audiophyte
OK I read your replys ... I will check to see how to disable the center channel on my Onkyo.
I moved then around a bit ... the TV dont move its bolted to the wall.
I did notice loose speaker cables when I moved them ... tightened them up.
Photo dont show it but I moved them out from the back wall 10".


Untitled.jpg
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
OK I read your replys ... I will check to see how to disable the center channel on my Onkyo.
I moved then around a bit ... the TV dont move its bolted to the wall.
I did notice loose speaker cables when I moved them ... tightened them up.
Photo dont show it but I moved them out from the back wall 10".


View attachment 44485
That looks much better! The distance from the back wall will help too. Too bad you can't move the tv over some more, but we all have to make some compromises. Does your avr have a setup routine and did you run it after making changes? How are things sounding now?

If you're still wanting some improvements the next step would be a good sub and/or some new speakers. Amps provide power, that's it. Your speakers and subs are where you'll find meaningful improvements.
 
Willee

Willee

Audiophyte
Thanks Pogre ... I have a sub-woofer for the TV sound bar but it is blue tooth and connects to it.
I dont think my receiver has bluetooth.
The receiver was set to 4 ohms all I could change it to was 6 ohms ... the speakers are 8 ohms.
Wonder why Onkyo did not include 8 ohms in its menu.

Nathan_h ... I did download the manual and can not find a thing about center channel but there is a RCA conector on th back panel for it.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
My friends here are spot on.
Get that end table out of the equation, right speaker on the floor.
Min. 12-18" standoff distance from the front wall.
If you can, shoot for at least 24" from the side wall.
Distance between speakers, on center should be 6' absolute minimum. Wider is preferred.
Some will say your LP needs to be the same distance as you have between speakers, forming an equilateral triangle. I have also seen arguments that you should sit slightly further away from your speakers than the distance between, forming and Isosceles Triangle.
Your LP should be several feet in front of the back wall. Sitting against the back wall is an acoustic problem

(Keep in mind, we all have limitations in our rooms and have to work with what we have. That said, there are basic set up goals that you should strive to achieve. Just what has been discussed is pretty basic.)

To take it to the next level, with free options:
Toe in. Experiment with angling the speakers to different degrees. Right now, you have them perpendicular, which can be fin, but usually this works best with speakers having Wide Horizontal Dispersion characteristics.
Klipsch, with their Horns, are called Controlled Directivity. Well designed Horn Loaded Speakers will controll how the soundwave emanates from the driver, thus how the wavefront then interacts with the room.
Things to try:
Angle the speakers in slightly so you can see less of the inner sides of the speaker. Ideally, in this situation, you will not aim the speakers directly at you, rather beyond and behind you such that if using a laser pointer the beam would intersect anywhere from 1-5' behind you. The distance at which they intersect changes the geometry and the degree of Axis with which you are being exposed to that Controlled Directivity wavefront. When you see recommendations to sit, say, 15º Off-Axis, this is what is meant.
You can also do what is called Time Intensity Trading. This is more extreme Toe-In where the imaginary beam of the Speaker's direct axis would intersect 1' or more in front of you. You would still therefore be Off-Axis, but the way the Wave Fronts interact with the room is significantly changed.
It is said that with Controlled Directivity Speakers, you can create a very detailed, deep and wide Soundstage using this technique.
How it will work in your room, I cannot say. but experimenting is FREE! :D

A decent quality Subwoofer will take some of the lower efficiency Low Frequencies away from your mains, allowing them to use that energy where it matters most, in the Mid and High end. This is Dialog clarity in movies, and detail in music. Crossing your speakers roughly at 80-100 Hz, depending on the range the Subwoofer can handle is a good first step.

I agree, whatever that little sound bar is, it is likely hurting your SQ. Lose it. If you want to add a true center channel, that is up to you. If you choose to, I would recommend planning ahead for your upgrades.

To that note, better front speakers will give you that more 'alive' feeling you mentioned. You don't have to spend $10K on Speakers, but depending on what you want and like, an upgrade for your Front 3 will likely cost ~$1500 if you want it to be more than a lateral move.

This is a lot to digest, and I saw your new photo above! good work.

One quick suggestion: get that end table out of there. In it's current location it is adding Diffraction to the sound coming from that Front Right Speaker. Whether it is audible?... is something that can be argued by those that care to. :) That said, if you want to give yourself a fighting chance , that is a change I would make. :)

Hope this helps!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks Pogre ... I have a sub-woofer for the TV sound bar but it is blue tooth and connects to it.
I dont think my receiver has bluetooth.
The receiver was set to 4 ohms all I could change it to was 6 ohms ... the speakers are 8 ohms.
Wonder why Onkyo did not include 8 ohms in its menu.

Nathan_h ... I did download the manual and can not find a thing about center channel but there is a RCA conector on th back panel for it.
Set AVR to its highest impedance... if 6 ohms, then set it there.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
For a budget Sub, look at the Dayton Sub1200.
there are others that you could look at, too, but this is likely the better option. BIC 12" is also often referenced in this conversation. :)
If you want to plan on a legit upgrade that you could use for 10 years, look at the Hsu VTF-2.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks Pogre ... I have a sub-woofer for the TV sound bar but it is blue tooth and connects to it.
I dont think my receiver has bluetooth.
The receiver was set to 4 ohms all I could change it to was 6 ohms ... the speakers are 8 ohms.
Wonder why Onkyo did not include 8 ohms in its menu.

Nathan_h ... I did download the manual and can not find a thing about center channel but there is a RCA conector on th back panel for it.
I'm not familiar with Onkyo menus, but there are usually speaker settings you can toggle on or off. If such a menu exists for you, set the center channel to off.

Those little subs that come with sound bars are in general, not good. A good, clean sub can help clean up your whole system by eliminating hard to hear distortion that those little subs are well known to produce.

There should be a way to set your avr for 8 ohm speakers and that's where it should be. The other ohm settings are only there for FTC ratings and what they do is limit power going to your speakers so your amp doesn't misbehave. This article will do a better job of explaining it than I can.

 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
For a budget Sub, look at the Dayton Sub1200.
there are others that you could look at, too, but this is likely the better option. BIC 12" is also often referenced in this conversation. :)
If you want to plan on a legit upgrade that you could use for 10 years, look at the Hsu VTF-2.
I wonder what the amp budget is..? He might be able to get something a little more if he has the budget. I also want to talk about those speakers. I'm not familiar with them, but in general a guy can usually do better than Klipsch for the money.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I wonder what the amp budget is..? He might be able to get something a little more if he has the budget. I also want to talk about those speakers. I'm not familiar with them, but in general a guy can usually do better than Klipsch for the money.
Just catching JBL Studio 5 on sale... Wow.
Two 580s and one 530 at center.

Hell, they are big, but getting up to the RF8000s would be better, likely. ;)

But it's been mentioned. If OP wants to go down the upgrade path, he'll ask. :D I'm not feeling too pushy today.
*edit: to remove center channel from equation
 
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nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
Sell the sound bar. Sell the sound bar sub. Use the money towards a "real" subwoofer. If you can afford a ported model from SVS, HSU or Rythmik that will be great.

---

This is a stereo AVR with a subwoofer output.

Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 9.16.25 AM.png



That is fine. IGNORE all our comments about a center channel. You don't have one and this unit does not support one and that is fine!

Here is a little info about how to connect a subwoofer when you get one:

Screen Shot 2021-02-11 at 9.15.13 AM.png
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
One quick suggestion: get that end table out of there. In it's current location it is adding Diffraction to the sound coming from that Front Right Speaker. Whether it is audible?... is something that can be argued by those that care to. :) That said, if you want to give yourself a fighting chance , that is a change I would make. :)
I wanted to mention this too. Hard to say if it's really audible, but it is kinda congested in front of the right speaker still and might help improve things some more. Room to breathe!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Sell the sound bar. Sell the sound bar sub. Use the money towards a "real" subwoofer. If you can afford a ported model from SVS, HSU or Rythmik that will be great.

---

This is a stereo AVR with a subwoofer output.That is fine. IGNORE all our comments about a center channel. You don't have one and this unit does not support one and that is fine!
Yes, that makes it a lot easier! It's a stereo amp so a center channel isn't really even part of the equation.

That said, how is he using the sound bar? Through the sub's bt?
 

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