Thoughts... Filling a basement with 'club like' sound.

[BMXTRIX]

I've always been somewhat moderate with what I expect from audio in any space. Give me a typical Denon mid-level receiver and I'll never have it overheat and power off on me.

Unfortunately, I have a client who is looking for club-like levels of sound in his basement. He originally said "I want it loud, and I want it to sound good" - which changed to complaints after things were installed.

I installed a 3313 A/V receiver with a Emotiva XPA-5 amplifier running to two Kef Q900 speakers. These speakers are placed about midway through the room and directed towards a dance area and are the main focus of complaint.

At the other end of the room is a TV which is flanked by a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40 floor speakers and a Motion 8BGL center channel.

IMO, the speakers sound very good. Since the TV speakers (Martin Logans) are being run via HDMI, they are considerably out of phase with the Kef speakers for the Dance floor, which is a complaint, but I'm struggling with the guy who just wants more SPL in the space.

I'm looking for solutions I suppose. The space is 54' long, 20' wide, with 8' ceilings. Hardwood surfaces and drywall everywhere (doesn't help).

But, what would people recommend to ramp up the SPL? To bring it up to a 'club-like' level?

I'm open to suggestions and comments.

 

[slipperybidness]

I've always been somewhat moderate with what I expect from audio in any space. Give me a typical Denon mid-level receiver and I'll never have it overheat and power off on me.

Unfortunately, I have a client who is looking for club-like levels of sound in his basement. He originally said "I want it loud, and I want it to sound good" - which changed to complaints after things were installed.

I installed a 3313 A/V receiver with a Emotiva XPA-5 amplifier running to two Kef Q900 speakers. These speakers are placed about midway through the room and directed towards a dance area and are the main focus of complaint.

At the other end of the room is a TV which is flanked by a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40 floor speakers and a Motion 8BGL center channel.

IMO, the speakers sound very good. Since the TV speakers (Martin Logans) are being run via HDMI, they are considerably out of phase with the Kef speakers for the Dance floor, which is a complaint, but I'm struggling with the guy who just wants more SPL in the space.

I'm looking for solutions I suppose. The space is 54' long, 20' wide, with 8' ceilings. Hardwood surfaces and drywall everywhere (doesn't help).

But, what would people recommend to ramp up the SPL? To bring it up to a 'club-like' level?

I'm open to suggestions and comments.

So, is he running the Kefs as surrounds and as a 2 channel setup? I'm slightly confused on the setup?

Obviously the acoustics may not be the greatest. I'm thinking that when I am in the clubs that the music is always really bass-heavy, so maybe add some nice subs? Maybe even some of the pro subs?

As far as amps, the Crown Drivecores are pretty much ubiquitous in any dance club.

For that matter, I have seen smaller clubs using powered monitors like Yammy or something. Probably not as good sound quality though.

What is the complaint? I don't get how the speakers are "out of phase", is he playing then with some DSP "all channel stereo mode" or something?

 

[BMXTRIX]

The speakers for the dance floor are actually zone 2 of the receiver. So, they run through the DAC on the Denon and are slightly time shifted. I put in an adjuster, but I think the analog audio sources into the Denon don't take as long to process as the HDMI audio sources... or perhaps they are out of sync from the HDMI and analog audio outputs from the originating sources (Dish/Fios/AppleTV w/analog converter)...

I'm thinking that when he wants to play the TV speakers with the dance floor speakers, that perhaps I can put the room into 5.1 stereo mode and use an analog audio switcher to switch from zone 2 of the Denon to the surround speaker preouts of the Denon. That way they would be available in 'combined' mode with good sync to the other speakers, and separate mode by themselves... ???

As it was intended, I expected the dance floor speakers to be on independently of the TV area speakers... But, that ended up not being how it seems he wants to use it at all.

I certainly have no issues buying MORE - but he seems to feel like what he got is not appropriate to how loud it should be... And the Emotiva amp driving those Kefs is pretty darn loud, but certainly not at 'dance club' levels.

I certainly can get more speakers... of some sort, but the Kefs are really being pushed by the Emotiva amp as it is. They aren't spec'd for the type of power the Drive Core will be putting out, so what speakers do you think should be paired with THAT type of amplifier?

Of course, his wife is already complaining about the aesthetics of the Kef speakers in the room.

I'm kind of pulling my hair out, and despite everything being installed, and to my knowledge, working properly, I am getting threatened with a lawsuit even though he won't send me an email about what 'specifically' he isn't happy about. So, I'm a bit frustrated, but want some ideas from others about what would really make this system 'over the top' in terms of quality.

Yeah, I was thinking a couple of really powerful subs might fill in the blanks, but I'm not at all sure how he would feel about that addition to the system.

 

[shadyJ]

If he wants a dance club sound, why give him home audio speakers? Especially for a dance floor. I would have set up a couple QSC K speakers with some pro-audio subs. Maybe some Klipsch RF-7s or something from Pi speakers if pro-audio is too much of an eye-sore for him. Anyway, he sounds like he didn't really know what he wants to begin with. You can't get big SPLs without bid speakers. It sounds like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place with this guy. By the way, how the hell can he sue you? Do you have a contract with this guy? Isn't there a way you can back out? If he is threatening litigation for something like that, I would want to stay far far away from him.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I feel like I'm between a rock and a hard place, but I'm at his home right now, and he was pretty happy when I got the audio in sync by setting them up as the surround speakers on the A/V receiver... Perfect sync. So, now I get to try a analog audio switcher to switch the speakers from zone 2 operation (stand alone) to zone 1 surrounds (combined mode) automatically. Not going to be terrible to accomplish since I have a Crestron controller in there.

You better believe that this is not at all what he was expressing when I designed the system. He originally wanted to run the dance floor with a 10 year old Yamaha receiver (mid grade)... which quickly couldn't handle things. But, he also wasn't happy with a 2112 receiver either... So, we went to the 3312 receiver with the Emotiva amp.... Which is exactly what I had specified to begin with.

I will end up bringing by my Velodyne HGS18 to test out filling in some low end in the space and seeing how that sounds as well.

Some other minor issues have cropped up, but those are typical and I will resolve them no problem at all... But the speakers are driving me nuts.

Believe me, if he said he wanted it to sound like a nightclub in here, I would have done just that, and perhaps talked him into building 'friendly' looking enclosures for the 2-4 speakers I would have provided as well as the subwoofers... But that was really not what was asked for.

As it is, when turned up beyond 0dB you can't hear someone talking at a high volume right in front of you.

I need to come in here with a sound meter.

 

[Alex2507]

I am getting threatened with a lawsuit ...

Unreal. Good luck getting free and clear of this. The loudest in home set up I heard was Paradigm Sig8s with an Epik Empire. I have no idea how they stand up to Kefs.

 

[ski2xblack]

Does the client fully understand what "good" and "loud", "club like sound" would take? Is he willing to spend that much? Would his wife ask for a divorce after he got, say, a pair of JTR Neosis228's and tapped horn sub?

 

[its phillip]

Yeah, I'd look at stuff from something like JTR. Or Danley

 

[ImcLoud]

This is pretty easy...
CMX 212 CERWIN VEGA HOME AUDIO SPEAKERS I was impressed by these, very clean clear and loud, very well behaved, find a company close and give them a listen, really impressive!!!! use an xls1000 for power should be plenty....

or
Amazon.com: Cerwin-Vega XLS-215 Dual 3-Way Home Audio Floor Tower Speaker (Each, Black): Electronics
and an xls1500 these are loud..

I use a pair of ev subs with ev pole mounted speakers and total a 4 thousand watts, use them for outside parties, and I have played them in my large basement, that sounds louder than any night club I have ever been in, but it doesnt sound very good, outside they sound awesome and really project well, but inside turned up with no room treatments, it is violent...

I think cerwin vega is the co to look into for loud and clear, I was also impressed with the Wharfedale Opus 2-3's they are good to 600w rms, and I have heard them powered by an xls2500 they were clear clean really nice and smooth... Problem is they are hard to find, I know a guy with a brand new set in the boxes(he has a few sets in stock) for around $2700 they were originally $6000, dual 10" drivers, built like a rock..

I think the problem you are having is bass, I can feed my evo-08s with so much clean power in the 150hz+ range and then power the 2 300w subs way past where you would ever want your bass levels, and it sounds like a HUGE system, my idea would be some 21" subs, like the cerwin vegas...

 

[shadyJ]

If the wife has trouble accepting some KEF 900s, there is no way she wouldn't balk at a tapped horn sub or anything from Danley.

 

[psbfan9]

BMXTRIX, are they wanting new equipment or for you to 'fix' what they have? So the wife is having a problem with how the KEF's look?

For speakers what about Polk Audio lsi 705 or Klipsch Reference RF-82 ll and a couple of PSA XV30f's? and then add a couple of Crown XLS1500's?

 

[kini]

$10K or so of some Seaton speakers and subs should do the trick.

 

[psbfan9]

$10K or so of some Seaton speakers and subs should do the trick.

2 pairs of Seaton Catalyst 12c Powered speakers should do it...

• Catalyst 12C Powered Loudspeaker (ships within 2 days to 3 weeks - finish dependent)
  • Internally tri-amplified (1,000W-700W-300W) loudspeaker
  • 115V/230V selectable, appropriate PowerCon power cord for destination address is included.
  • 8" coaxial midrange w/Neodymium magnet 1" HF driver
  • dual 12" sealed woofer
  • Intended operating range: 50-20,000 Hz
  • 38" H x 16" W x 14" D (Link to PDF)
  • $3,595 each + shipping
  • Weight: 116 lbs
    
  • Packed for shipping: 21" W x 19" D x 44" H, 132 lbs

 

[BMXTRIX]

That's for the ideas all. I am going by there with my HGS18 to test adding a subwoofer to the space, and then we'll go from there. The Kef 900s with the Emotiva amp is already pushing plenty of dBs in the room. You get that nice vibration feeling without there being a subwoofer in the space. It seems like his top complaint was the lack of sync between the digitally fed Martin Logan speakers and the Kefs. This guy has been rather thrifty throughout the process with me, and I'm not happy with the time I've spent on it so far, but I'm hopeful that we will get there.

Not exactly like the Kef Q900s are a slouch in design: Hi-Fi Speakers - Q Series - Fact Sheets - Floorstanding - Q900 - KEF United States

I agree that it may be the low end that he is looking for, so I'll start there. There certainly is no way to get more out of the Kefs, but at $1,300ish for the speaker pair, it's not like $3,000+ for a different speaker pair is likely to fly, and I'm not really looking to eat the cost on the 900s to have them sit in my basement until I can get them sold elsewhere.

...sigh.... Just a bit of work over the next week. I'll let you all know how it turns out and if he's still not happy, I will give him some recommendations... as politely as possible.

 

[ImcLoud]

Im sure a nice fast high output sub will be just the ticket, like I said my evo2 08s sound like a concert hall when you put a ton of subwoofer behind them... good luck, hopefully he is happy... sell him a pair of hsu uls15s that will be bassy and fast...

 

[jcl]

If adding the sub fails to fix the situation you could rent some pro gear like the previously mentioned QSC K or maybe Yorkville Unity series to bring in for a trial. That way he can hear it and his wife can see it without much cost.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

Finally I can help BMX! Your always giving me projector advice.

I've DJ'd and worked in clubs through college in Chicago, now I live in Miami (so I'm at clubs regularly and even do some marketing work for them).

Subwoofers will not solve it! The sound of a club comes from it's midrange punch. Adding subwoofers will just pressurize the room, which you want, but, you have to have the midrange covered even with the subwoofers. Clubs actually run much flatter than home theaters (which people run bass heavy). The way you increase the bass in a club is just to raise the volume.

I setup my system to be capable of nightclub levels, you can take a look in my signature.

I'd look at JTRs, but for a customer I'd be afraid of it just being a one man show. So, another option is Danley. I use their SH-MINI's in my studio for music, they are good fills but probably need more horsepower for nightclub levels.

Two brands that sound great and are fairly compact:
SH46 | Danley Sounds Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

These are what I mostly use down here:
Funktion-One | Products | Resolution 1

Funktion One is kinda the go-to for clubs. We use them here in Miami, but, Ibiza, Berlin, and other dance meccas use them too. Was just in Berlin and they had very similar setups to what we have in Miami. They don't use compression drivers, and the larger ones cover the vocal range on a single driver.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

Oh, the Dance Stacks are very popular. But, for smaller clubs, they are typically too much output. Usually then they go with R2s and Infra subs. Vagabond here is extremely loud, and it's just four infra subs and four R2s hanging. Covers 400 people with intense sound no problem. 120-125dB all night, for big events we'll push it more.

Also just heard these the other day, be awesome for a home theater. They are booth monitors for loud clubs:
http://www.funktion-one.com/products/psm318-dj-monitor/

 

[big2bird]

If he wants it to sound like a club, build a club. Go to guitar center, buy Crown amps and DJ speakers, and jamb them in there just like a club.