The YAPO advantage ?

[scottyg]

I have been to several audio stores and have asked repeatedly if the yapo is the best way to setup your system without hiring a professional to come and setup my system...all of the salesmen said plug in the yapo and dont touch the settings....after tweaking the rears a lot since I felt they were hard to hear, so I have to disagree with all the advice I received.....what are your thoughts ??

Scott

 

[gmichael]

I like most of what it does for me. But I don't like how it rolls off the highs with the EQ settings. I run mine then go back in and set the EQ's to flat. This has been the best sound for my system. But you will have to make sure that you have good room accustics.
The rears almost always sound low because most movies do not have much coming from them. Tweeking them up a little shouldn't hurt as long as you don't go overboard. If you later find that in some movies the action overpowers the dialog, you may need to tweek them back down.

 

[Slats]

I typically run it as a starting point and tweak from there. The last two times I ran it the speaker distances were a bit off and the EQ was to aggressive for my taste. Something I might try in the future is run it several times from different points and write down what it suggests. I can take those suggestions and try to average it all out.

 

[supervij]

YPAO is a great starting point, but it's not 100% accurate, and it does make mistakes. I agree with Slats -- use it as a starting point and adjust it to your liking after that.

My YPAO insists on setting my centre channel as large, when it should be small. And the level it gives for the centre is a bit too low; the mains overpower it to the point where I can't hear the dialogue too clearly. The levels that YPAO were close, but still a wee bit off, from using an SPL meter.

So use it as a guide, but not as an absolute.

cheers,
supervij

 

[RLA]

Hello All,

YPAO can be accurate for distance settings but very inaccurate for channel trim depending on the room. I have recorded as much as 8-10dB variance between YPAO set SPL levels and verified SPL levels using my meter. The speaker setting for large and small is also inaccurate and the LFE to "Both" front and sub can be a problem as well. Look if your speakers are not capable of producing a full range frequency (most are not) then 60- 80 Hz small is the appropriate setting for most towers and large bookshelf speakers.

 

[HiFi Jake]

I like most of what it does for me. But I don't like how it rolls off the highs with the EQ settings. I run mine then go back in and set the EQ's to flat. This has been the best sound for my system. But you will have to make sure that you have good room accustics.
The rears almost always sound low because most movies do not have much coming from them. Tweeking them up a little shouldn't hurt as long as you don't go overboard. If you later find that in some movies the action overpowers the dialog, you may need to tweek them back down.

I agree! I got two words for people who feel they need to EQ their room: "Just Say NO!" ;-)

Fix the acoustics instead. For starters, EQ doesn't properly fix modal issues in a room. You can reduce some of the peaks, but it won't fix modal ringing. Ethan Winer and Terry Montlick did some experiments with this. http://www.realtraps.com/eq-traps.htm

You can see the difference between what EQ fixes and what acoustic treatment fixes in that article. I think there are some other articles around somewhere about that.

Plus, if you EQ for one listening position, it's only going to be good for that listening position. The person sitting next to you or behind you is going to hear something different than you hear. For that matter, if you move your head an inch or two, you will hear a different result if you pay attention to this. Proper acoustic treatment actually fixes the problem by attenuating the reflected sound just enough so that it doesn't interfere with the direct sound from the speakers. To EQ a room (especially if it isn't a very god sounding room) is to put band-aid on a broken arm.

Cheap EQ sucks, because it distorts the sound in all kinds of funky ways. There's a reason high end amps and preamps don't come with tone controls. Why would you want to put your sound through something that only screws up the sound. Even most cheap gear these days has a pretty flat frequency response. So if it doesn't sound right, the problem is most likely your room.

So maybe just use the YPAO as a starting point for levels, etc., but leave the EQ flat, and get some proper acoustic treatment if you still aren't happy with the sound. You'll hear detail, imaging and dialog a lot better too, including for your surrounds.

 

[Buckle-meister]

...I got two words for people who feel they need to EQ their room: "Just Say NO!"...EQ doesn't properly fix modal issues in a room. You can reduce some of the peaks, but it won't fix modal ringing...Plus, if you EQ for one listening position, it's only going to be good for that listening position...

(sigh) Here we go again.

HiFi Jake, this (rather hot) topic has cropped up on these boards before. I suggest you read both this and this thread in their entirety.

 

[tomd51]

Balance...

I wouldn't suggest EQ as a sole solution, but at the same time, most folks don't have dedicated listening rooms which they can properly treat with acoustic panels and bass traps as these are typically rooms that double duty as common living rooms/areas.

I think some of the newer EQ options such as YPAO and Audyssey can do an excellent job helping to tame some difficult rooms, however any room furnishings that can be added (e.g. acoustic panels, rugs, wall hangings, thick curtains, furniture, etc.) will also help balance a room's acoustics.

Much like having a listening area that's all hard surfaces is undesirable (e.g. wood/laminate floors, large glass surfaces, hard paneling, etc.), having a completely soundproofed anechoic room is not an ideal solution as well. There should be a decent balance of living accoutrements that will help naturally provide a relatively neutral listening environment that can be coupled with EQ to help tame some of the harsh edges... -TD

 

[gmichael]

I wouldn't suggest EQ as a sole solution, but at the same time, most folks don't have dedicated listening rooms which they can properly treat with acoustic panels and bass traps as these are typically rooms that double duty as common living rooms/areas.

I think some of the newer EQ options such as YPAO and Audyssey can do an excellent job helping to tame some difficult rooms, however any room furnishings that can be added (e.g. acoustic panels, rugs, wall hangings, thick curtains, furniture, etc.) will also help balance a room's acoustics.

Much like having a listening area that's all hard surfaces is undesirable (e.g. wood/laminate floors, large glass surfaces, hard paneling, etc.), having a completely soundproofed anechoic room is not an ideal solution as well. There should be a decent balance of living accoutrements that will help naturally provide a relatively neutral listening environment that can be coupled with EQ to help tame some of the harsh edges... -TD

Sorry, what did you say? I couldn't stop glancing back at your avitar, over and over....

 

[majorloser]

Sorry, what did you say? I couldn't stop glancing back at your avitar, over and over....

Is that on your Christmas list?

 

[gmichael]

Is that on your Christmas list?

It is now.

 

[tomd51]

It's certainly on mine. Not sure if the wife's gonna like it, though... -TD

 

[bpape]

You can't just totally dismiss EQ as a PIECE of a solution. I'll agree that a cheap EQ is a bad investment. There are times when real world situations require that seating, speakers, subs, etc. be placed in less than optimal situations. Treatments can certainly help but may not totally eliminate things like the dead center room if that's where you're sitting for example. For those last few stubborn peaks (not nulls) in the bottom end - say below 200Hz, a good parametric EQ can be very vaulable.

The experiment by Terry and Ethan has some flaws in it that both of them have acknowledged. EQ band center and Q were not exactly spot on - which is required to use EQ as described. Ethan will be the first to tell you that he didn't take the time to corner load some of the absorbers as he normally recommends. There are other things too.

Trust me, I WISH treatments could always fix all the problems. It would be great for business - but the reality is that in some cases, an EQ is a welcome addition - but IMO never a complete solution.

Bryan

 

[gmichael]

For the record, I don't have anything against EQ's. I tried my system with it and without it. I like how it sounds without it. This may not be best for everyone. In fact, at my last home, I left the EQ on. But I did tweek it quite a bit. It seemed way too agressive for my tastes.

 

[tomd51]

For the record, I don't have anything against EQ's. I tried my system with it and without it. I like how it sounds without it. This may not be best for everyone. In fact, at my last home, I left the EQ on. But I did tweek it quite a bit. It seemed way too agressive for my tastes.

And that's exactly what you should do. Regardless of whether a room measures out to be perfectly linear or neutral, the bottom line is whether you as the owner and others that you plan on entertaining are pleased with the results.

Come to think of it, you're the only one that really matters, they'll just have to adjust to your tastes . In fact, this might be one of the only times that what you want will come before what your significant other wants... -TD

 

[Buckle-meister]

With my traps installed and their and the sub's placement tweaked to achieve as flat a response as possible, I find that after running YPAO, I cannot hear a difference with it engaged or not, so I leave it off.

 

[gmichael]

And that's exactly what you should do. Regardless of whether a room measures out to be perfectly linear or neutral, the bottom line is whether you as the owner and others that you plan on entertaining are pleased with the results.

Come to think of it, you're the only one that really matters, they'll just have to adjust to your tastes . In fact, this might be one of the only times that what you want will come before what your significant other wants... -TD

HAHAHHA Flashback!

Honey? How does this sound?
Uhm, good.
Do you like it better like this?
Uh, Uhm, did you change something?
Well, yeah! I turned the EQ COMPLETELY off! Can't you hear it?
Uhm, huh?
Nevermind.

 

[tomd51]

Each one may be a little different, but they're all the same... -TD

 

[HiFi Jake]

(sigh) Here we go again.

HiFi Jake, this (rather hot) topic has cropped up on these boards before. I suggest you read both this and this thread in their entirety.

Mmmm Hmm. Well, as some others in that thread have stated, I'm still waiting for the proof of some of the claims made (e.g., fixing modal ringing) via some waterfall charts. Why is it that so many of the people who so adamantly defend the use of EQ to fix modal problems never seem to be willing to post up waterfall charts?

And some of the people who advocate for the use of EQ still believe that most rooms don't need bass traps. That's ridiculous.

It used to be trendy to EQ monitors in recording studio control rooms years before HT folks started using it. And as I understand it most of those recording studios stopped doing that quite some time ago when they realized it's better to fix the acoustics treatment.

Call me crazy, but maybe the guys who spent years and years engineering these great recordings (both music and films) and the acousticians who design these studios know some things many HT people (including some of the people who teach the HT design certification courses, etc.)?

 

[tomd51]

Jake, I'm a little confused w/the point of your post. Are you stating that EQ doesn't assist in attempting to provide a neutral listening environment?

I am of the opinion that everything from simple furniture and room treatments can assist in this capacity as well as acoustic panels, bass traps and EQ features. If all but EQ'ing has been implemented and you're still not quite where you'd like things to be, how does EQ hinder instead of help?

I certainly don't agree that EQ'ing is the end all-be-all solution, but I think completely ruling it out is being a little short-sighted as those who suggest room treatment isn't necessary... -TD