The wait begins...

[Steve81]

I've been given approval for a new toy by X-mas time, so now the wait begins.

Currently I've got a PC12-NSD in a 24x13x7 room with a set of stairs on the side for a total of ~2500 cubic feet. It does well enough, but you guys know how it is....as good as the PC12 is, I could always have MORE!!!

Really what bothers me the most is seeing the limiter light flashing, even at some "relatively" low levels (-15dB from reference). Yeah I know, a lot of these newer (guy) movies have solid bass extending to 10Hz and below, and that is going to trip the limiter a lot earlier. I also know Audyssey does apply some boost which doesn't help the situation. It still bothers me... And of course, who wouldn't want a little more mid-bass slam and bone shaking deep bass.

Right now my top contenders are the SVS PB12-Plus and the Rythmik FV15HP. The Rythmik wins in output, the SVS wins in looks (that real black oak veneer should nicely match my speakers) and the 5 year bumper to bumper warranty. Assuming the numbers translate between the PB12-NSD and the PB12-Plus in the AH subwoofer summary PDF file, I'd be gaining on average 6db between 20Hz and 63Hz, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Open to thoughts, comments, and concerns.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

You have pretty large room and I can see how a single PC12-NSD would be insufficient to fill it
You have an option to add a second one - put in another location it will give you about 3db boost

FV15HP is a monster, not question asked, but Imo there is a "new kid" on the block of about 1k high performance subs which you should consider:
POWER SOUND AUDIO — XV30
or pair of XV15 will give you significant improvement over single PC12NSD

 

[Steve81]

Good morning BSA,

I've thought about a second PC12, but the wife balked at that. Something about two black water heaters in a room doesn't sit right with her.... I should also mention I'm not particularly interested in a dual setup, nor does my room really demand it. In measuring my room response with my current setup, 20Hz-80Hz has a fairly flat, if slightly rising response towards the low end at the MLP, even without Audyssey. My problems occur much higher, around 150Hz.

I've also looked at PSA. The XV30 is too deep for me to fit well in my room. I am curious how the XV15 performs although I'm not expecting miracles.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Good morning BSA,

I've thought about a second PC12, but the wife balked at that. Something about two black water heaters in a room doesn't sit right with her.... I should also mention I'm not particularly interested in a dual setup, nor does my room really demand it. In measuring my room response with my current setup, 20Hz-80Hz has a fairly flat, if slightly rising response towards the low end at the MLP, even without Audyssey. My problems occur much higher, around 150Hz.

I've also looked at PSA. The XV30 is too deep for me to fit well in my room. I am curious how the XV15 performs although I'm not expecting miracles.

Hey Steve,
I Can't promise you miracles, but here's some additional info about the company:
Power Sound Audio XV30 Subwoofer Preview — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Given larger driver and more powerful (than NSD) XV15 is closer in performance to PB12-Plus

If your stairway is not sealed, then sub "sees" the volume of any space attached.. Your target is to pressurize the space and if air can escape thru the stairs - you need ether to seal the space or get bigger sub (s)

 

[Steve81]

Hey Steve,
I Can't promise you miracles, but here's some additional info about the company:
Power Sound Audio XV30 Subwoofer Preview — Reviews and News from Audioholics

Given larger driver and more powerful (than NSD) XV15 is closer in performance to PB12-Plus

If your stairway is not sealed, then sub "sees" the volume of any space attached.. Your target is to pressurize the space and if air can escape thru the stairs - you need ether to seal the space or get bigger sub (s)

The area is sealed, relatively anyway. Of course, all that separates the HT area from the rest of the basement is a half inch of drywall and some studs, so I do wonder about efficacy of the seal.

All that said, if the XV15 can hang with the PB12+ down deep, it'll make my decision tougher. Hopefully Josh gets around to that one sooner rather than later.

Pressurizing seems to be a tough one thanks to the dimensions of the room. Just with the 24' long wall, pressurization shouldn't happen until ~23Hz (1116 ft per sec div 24 div 2). I wanted to further divide the room to cut down on that, but I can't get everything I want.

 

[shadyJ]

If you are only going to have one sub, make it a really good one. I would go up one step from the PB12 Plus and FV15HP, and aim for something like a Captivator or Submersive or Funk Audio 18.0. As good as the FV15HP and PB12 Plus are, they aren't the best, so I say if you are only going to have one sub, make it one you could never conceivably upgrade from.

 

[Steve81]

I say if you are only going to have one sub, make it one you could never conceivably upgrade from.

Definitely some wisdom in those words. Unfortunately, my wife might disagree with you! Realistically, I've tried to weigh the options in a $$ for dB way; I shot down the PB13U since it's another $600 over the PB12+, but only adds another ~3dB of output versus the 6dB the + adds over the NSD for $650. The FV15HP of course seems the best value per dB at that point, being on par with the Ultra. The problem with the Cap, Submersive, & Funk is that nobody I trust appears to have tested them, and I really like known quantities. Given the amount of $$$ we're discussing, I need more than some forum buzz to go to the wife and say, this is why I need to spend $2500 on a sub instead of $1400.

There's also the million $ question to contend with: will I be satisfied with the PB12+ or FV15HP? Impossible to answer at this time unfortunately.

 

[j_garcia]

Between those two, I'd lean FV15HP. I haven't heard it specifically, though I was considering one as well. I have heard the FV12 and was impressed and I had driven my previous 15" sub with a Rythmik amp and I was also quite impressed with it. I have heard most of the SVS subs and they are all great, but I do prefer the sound of the sealed servo subs.

 

[Steve81]

Between those two, I'd lean FV15HP. I haven't heard it specifically, though I was considering one as well. I have heard the FV12 and was impressed and I had driven my previous 15" sub with a Rythmik amp and I was also quite impressed with it. I have heard most of the SVS subs and they are all great, but I do prefer the sound of the sealed servo subs.

Any thoughts on the sealed mode of the PB12+ for music versus the FV15HP/the FV12 you heard? Admittedly though, I can't claim that music is high on my priority list, not that I don't listen to plenty, but I'm not sure that songs like "Under Pressure" and "Mr Roboto" really demand the highest of fidelity

 

[j_garcia]

Well, if you are happy with the SVS sound, then by all means go for the Plus. It won't disappoint for music or movies. They are good at pretty much everything. I've not listened to a plus in sealed mode, only in 20Hz and 16Hz tune. My buddy that owned it moved up to an Ultra though because his place is almost completely open and even the Plus wasn't enough to handle it. The Plus sounded great, but the Ultra is in another league.

I don't think your room by itself is too big for a single Plus. Can the hallway/stairs be closed off? If not, and whatever it leads to is a large open area, I'd consider something with a little more oomph. If it can, then you'll be OK. That's pretty much the footprint of my last room except I had a 20' angled ceiling, and my single 15" was able to fill it fine. I still bought the Empire

 

[Steve81]

Well, if you are happy with the SVS sound, then by all means go for the Plus. It won't disappoint for music or movies. They are good at pretty much everything.

I know I can't really go too far wrong, which is comforting. I've owned a couple of SVS subs, so if nothing else, I'm familiar with their sound. I certainly have no objections to buying another, although admittedly I've not really tried everything else out there either.

Can the hallway/stairs be closed off? If not, and whatever it leads to is a large open area, I'd consider something with a little more oomph. If it can, then you'll be OK. That's pretty much the footprint of my last room except I had a 20' angled ceiling, and my single 15" was able to fill it fine. I still bought the Empire

Yeah there's a door at the top of the stairs, so the room is sealed.

 

[billy p]

Definitely some wisdom in those words. Unfortunately, my wife might disagree with you! Realistically, I've tried to weigh the options in a $$ for dB way; I shot down the PB13U since it's another $600 over the PB12+, but only adds another ~3dB of output versus the 6dB the + adds over the NSD for $650. The FV15HP of course seems the best value per dB at that point, being on par with the Ultra. The problem with the Cap, Submersive, & FUNK is that nobody I trust appears to have tested them, and I really like known quantities. Given the amount of $$$ we're discussing, I need more than some forum buzz to go to the wife and say, this is why I need to spend $2500 on a sub instead of $1400.

There's also the million $ question to contend with: will I be satisfied with the PB12+ or FV15HP? Impossible to answer at this time unfortunately.

Fwiw....2 of Funks subs have been tested! The FW 12x was tested by audioholicss and Josh Ricci has tested the 15.2. I fully understand your apprehension regarding this approach but for my money if I could do it all over again I would've just bought the 2500.00 sub and being done with it.... Now I am on the fence about getting a new Funk Audio FW18.0.....

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/72728-quick-reference-thread-audioholics-ultimate-subwoofer-shootout.html

Data-Bass

 

[edoggrc51]

I could do it all over again I would've just bought the 2500.00 sub and being done with it...

+1

Somtimes it comes out cheaper in the long run too.

 

[Steve81]

I know you guys mean well, but I do have a few thoughts to add:

1. As it stands now, I've got about $2250 invested in my entire 5.1 system, including my current PC12-NSD and receiver $2500 would represent a big leap for me. Heck, even $1400 is a pretty big jump for me, and I have to wait till X-mas for that.

2. I'm not sure how much benefit I'd see from a sub significantly more powerful than the FV15HP. I sit 9 feet from a corner loaded sub. At 20Hz, even the "weakling" PB12+ should be putting out on the order of 116dB at the MLP (ignoring any potential room gain) and 123dB at 40Hz. That seems like a respectable amount in my books compared with reference level (theoretically 123.2dB if all channels peaked simultaneously). I guess my question is at what point does all the extra output capability just become a waste?

 

[edoggrc51]

I know you guys mean well, but I do have a few thoughts to add:

1. As it stands now, I've got about $2250 invested in my entire 5.1 system, including my current PC12-NSD and receiver $2500 would represent a big leap for me. Heck, even $1400 is a pretty big jump for me, and I have to wait till X-mas for that.

2. I'm not sure how much benefit I'd see from a sub significantly more powerful than the FV15HP. I sit 9 feet from a corner loaded sub. At 20Hz, even the "weakling" PB12+ should be putting out on the order of 116dB at the MLP (ignoring any potential room gain) and 123dB at 40Hz. That seems like a respectable amount in my books compared with reference level (theoretically 123.2dB if all channels peaked simultaneously). I guess my question is at what point does all the extra output capability just become a waste?

I guess what I was getting at is to get the best sub you can. I know that in my case had i of done that from the get go i would have definitely saved some cash and a TON of work.

As for headroom, I feel like you can never have enough. Well I suppose there is a point where it becomes wasted, but I have 4 18in subs in my 24x14x12 room and they do great. Plenty of distortion-free headroom (in other words SQ) and just as importantly (at least to me) no sign of upgrade-itis in sight.

 

[Steve81]

I guess what I was getting at is to get the best sub you can. I know that in my case had i of done that from the get go i would have definitely saved some cash and a TON of work.

I certainly understand that sentiment. I'll admit that I cheaped out when I got the PC12 in the first place, although I probably won't end up losing too much on it in the end. Had I gone with the PC12+ in the first place, I probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now; so for the most part, this purchase is to correct that mistake.

As for headroom, I feel like you can never have enough.

True enough, but I figure with those output capabilities, I should have some headroom to work with. Even on my wildest days, I'm never listening at full reference level. The only time I really get to turn it up is when my wife and son are two stories up sleeping. At that point, I'm pushing about -10dB to -5dB from reference, and I think I'd have an irritated wife and child if I pushed it much more, especially with a sub that can deliver those levels with little or no limiting.

I have 4 18in subs in my 24x14x12 room and they do great.

Nice! I've got the "chair of bass" which is about a whole foot away from my sub. It's enough to make me a bit queasy.

 

[edoggrc51]

True enough, but I figure with those output capabilities, I should have some headroom to work with. Even on my wildest days, I'm never listening at full reference level.

Just make sure the sub(s) can deliver CLEAN bass at your listening levels and you should be fine.

Funny, I was just reading another thread here and this post caught my eye. Check it out, headroom (among other things) at play here! lol

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/901824-post18.html

 

[Steve81]

Funny, I was just reading another thread here and this post caught my eye. Check it out, headroom (among other things) at play here! lol

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/901824-post18.html

Yeah I saw that beast, but I just noticed something. Its rated 20-32Hz avg is 111.3dB and 40Hz-63Hz avg is 119.1dB. A simple average of the FV15HP's output in those ranges are 112.7dB and 119.1dB respectively. Pretty impressive on Rythmik's part.

 

[edoggrc51]

Yeah I saw that beast, but I just noticed something. Its rated 20-32Hz avg is 111.3dB and 40Hz-63Hz avg is 119.1dB. A simple average of the FV15HP's output in those ranges are 112.7dB and 119.1dB respectively. Pretty impressive on Rythmik's part.

The 2 Rhthmik's that ive heard were great. They were the smaller 12in sealed models but i cant remember the model number?? Anyhow, for their size the output was outstanding! And of course the SQ was there as well.

 

[Steve81]

The 2 Rhthmik's that ive heard were great. They were the smaller 12in sealed models but i cant remember the model number?? Anyhow, for their size the output was outstanding! And of course the SQ was there as well.

That's exactly why Rythmik made it to my top 2!

The only thing that dissuades me from it is well...it looks cheap. The vinyl finish versus real wood matters a little, but it goes beyond that. Even the little things like the knobs on the amplifier look cheap. Ultimately, at least in my own mind, it reflects on the warranty they offer of 2 years on the amplifier versus 5 years on the SVS. It'll be a fun few months as I argue with myself back and forth