The irony of the "sweet spot"

[ahrensjt]

I will be returning to live in the U.S. in January. My wife and I are purchasing a house, and she is fully supportive of upgrading our AV (from cheap, newly-weds-in-an-apartment equipment).

As an engineer I tends to really shop around and do extensive testing. I've noticed a key tradeoff - and wondering how others have approached it:

1) Out listening is 2/3 television and DVDs, 1/3 music.
Important: our music listening is not "keep my head perfectly fixed in the sweet spot". We are making dinner, having company, working...

but

2) I've found that many speakers are designed to have a person's head absolutely fixed in the sweet spot (you'd never listen to Vandersteen speakers outside the small sweet spot). On the other side of the coin, 360-degree designs like Ohm don't provide the imaging when we are sitting on the sofa (mostly in the sweet spot).

Anyone care to share how they dealt with this?
What did you purchase and why?
What was more problematic: vertical or horizontal dispersion and cancellation effects?

FYI: I am considering NewFormResearch ribbon speakers, that are tall (when we're standing) and have decent horizontal dispersion...

Cheers,
Jeff

 

[j_garcia]

The SWEET spot is definitely centered on my couch, in my primary listening position, but anywhere in the room still sounds good enough that I would not complain. It took a LOT of minute tweaking to get it to sound right though. Toe and distance apart was key to getting my setup exactly the way I like it. You still get good separation regardless of which end of the couch you might be sitting on, despite sitting closer to one speaker or the other, though the depth of the imaging is obviously lost.

IMO, for TV/DVD viewing (I don't watch TV with sound through the stereo, TVs already loud enough), I don't really care about imaging because it generally isn't that critical. My system is adjusted for 2ch music listening.

 

[sts9fan]

I have found my Paradigm Stdio 60 v3's to sound damn good of axis. They are in my living room but still sound good in the kitchen when I am making dinner.

 

[cornelius]

I solved the problem with a pair of Ohms, I definitely liked the idea of a larger sweetspot (actually, they aren't a 360 deg design like the mbl's). I chose them because I just could not find anything that didn't sound like sound coming out of a box (in my 1-2k price range). Some of the time coherent, 1st -order x/o designs opend my eyes to what a naturally spacious presentation sounded like, but I didn't find any that fit my listening space (and some, like the Vandys are head-in-a-vice). I liked the Maggie 1.6's but their size and placement problems were just too much for me. Also, if I moved around the sound changed drastically.

It's true, the Ohm's imaging isn't as razor sharp as other speakers, so it's up to the listener to try them out at home, with your own gear, and see if it's a problem. They are sensitive to what's feeding them - better electronics made me forget all about any imaging problems!

If the Ohms aren't your cup of tea, then another one to try is Decware. I haven't heard them, but they seem worth checking out.

 

[ahrensjt]

cornelius - do you have the micro-walsh or micro-walsh tall? I appreciate the frank discussion about strengths/weaknesses... no speaker is perfect by every measure.

Another example of the trade-off... in my listening the Gallo Due speakers (with the "ribbon-like" tweeter) have good dispersion... but not the slam/dynamics that something like sts9fan's Paradigms have.

Anyone know of additional brands that set their *design objectives* to be around-the-room listening? (other than Bose )

Jeff

 

[cornelius]

I have the MicroWalsh Tall. I hope I was of some help to you - it really gets down to listener's priorities, so some of the Ohm's trade-offs might not appeal to everyone (though we must not forget what they CAN do, which is astonishing at their price range!).

Ah yes, I forgot about the Gallo Due. I haven't heard the Reference 3, but that might be a possibility. The other company is Joseph Audio. I THINK their crossover design is supposed to help in the off-axis department.

 

[Mort Corey]

With the Ohm's, are you running a center channel for HT usage? I've been looking into the Walsh 2 or 3 but not sure if I like their center channel options and was thinking about just running a phantom center for HT.

Mort

 

[j_garcia]

Joseph Audios are probably one of the best performing speakers off axis that I've heard. Anywhere I walked in the room, they still had excellent imaging. One of my favorite speaker brands of all.

I had Studio 40s in my setup and while they are fine overall, they didn't have the depth or midrange clarity that I was looking for. I did a 3hr audition session with Paradigm v3 Studio 20s, Joseph Audio RM7Si Signatures, and Paradigm Signature S2s. The 20s are an excellent speaker, but they were clearly out of their league when the other two were fired up. The S2s are very impressive - much more clarity of vocals and midrange compared to the Studios, but the highs only sounded midly smoother to my ears. The ones that surprised me were the RM7s, that being the first time I had heard the brand. For a fairly small bookshelf, these guys had a lot of bass, and not bloated, fluffy stuff, it was clean. The soft dome tweeter sounded velvety smooth yet with plenty of detail . I'm not sure I understand exactly how their active x-over works, but it works WELL. All that and they were still $300 less than the S2s.

 

[cornelius]

Hey Mort - Right now I'm only in 2 channel mode, but when I expand into HT, I will most likely run phantom mode-center channel with the Ohms. Due to their design many owners don't require a center channel. I watch TV/Movies a lot with mine, and don't miss a center channel at all!

If you are still into having a center, then I would guess that a MicroWalsh Tall would sound great. Ohm makes a center channel, but sometimes they recommend one of their floorstanders instead (I think a single MicroWalsh is about $500). Best to call the guys at Ohm for advice!

 

[Mort Corey]

Sorry ahrensjt, wasn't trying to hijack you thread, but I've been interested in Ohm Acoustic speakers for some time as (the ones I've heard anyway) they describe your aversion to a sweet spot to a tee.

Thanks cornelius. I've got no room for a full size speaker as a center channel and that's why I was thinking of eliminating using one altogether if the Ohm's produce the illusion of there being one and produces dialogue clearly. Guess I might just have to break into the piggy bank and take a pair for a test run.

Mort

 

[deftech]

I have bi-polar speakers and find them to have a pleasing, large sound stage. I have definitive technologys but mirage makes some nice models too.

 

[Snarl]

My solution is 4 Speakers and the 5/7 Channel Stereo Mode on my Denon, seem's to widen the Sweet Spot somewhat

 

[Reorx]

My solution is similar to Snarl's.
I am almost constantly running 6 speakers in 7 channel audio mode. I usually leave my center channel off, because it uses a seperate large amp, and it sucks up alot of juice. Except of course when watching a movie.

With this setup, I can hear music in any room of my 1300sq ft apartment regardless of walls and doors.

Its nice to see that some companies have designed their speakers to incorporate a larger sound stage. I may look into this one day.

Reorx

 

[mtrycrafts]

upgrading our AV (from cheap, newly-weds-in-an-apartment equipment).

As an engineer I tends to really shop around and do extensive testing. I've noticed a key tradeoff - and wondering how others have approached it:

1) Out listening is 2/3 television and DVDs, 1/3 music.
Important: our music listening is not "keep my head perfectly fixed in the sweet spot". We are making dinner, having company, working...

but

2) I've found that many speakers are designed to have a person's head absolutely fixed in the sweet spot (you'd never listen to Vandersteen speakers outside the small sweet spot). On the other side of the coin, 360-degree designs like Ohm don't provide the imaging when we are sitting on the sofa (mostly in the sweet spot).

Cheers,
Jeff

Have you listened to music with Dolby prologic, or Dolby II, etc? The center speaker helps you localize the soundstage.

 

[ahrensjt]

In my experience, I've found that the center channel (in music) has the following effects... good or bad depending on your point of view:
- Larger sweet spot - the "whole sofa" sounds good...
- but reduction in clarity & soundstage. I think this is due to the interference/cancellation effects across the speakers
- increase dynamics - probably due to more driver volume in action

The other problem I've encountered: I make sure the digital "effects" are turned off when using Dolby. They add artificial delay or reverberations that definitely give the extra ambiance, but (in my opinion) reduces soundstage.

Overall, I will use the center channel more when listening at lower volumes - I like its impact in this case. Otherwise for music I prefer 2-channel.

cornelius: thanks for the Decware info. I checked out their website. Interesting concept. As always, it comes down to an audition that I'll have to organize when I return.

 

[Dan]

2) I've found that many speakers are designed to have a person's head absolutely fixed in the sweet spot (you'd never listen to Vandersteen speakers outside the small sweet spot). On the other side of the coin, 360-degree designs like Ohm don't provide the imaging when we are sitting on the sofa (mostly in the sweet spot).

Anyone care to share how they dealt with this?
What did you purchase and why?
What was more problematic: vertical or horizontal dispersion and cancellation effects?

FYI: I am considering NewFormResearch ribbon speakers, that are tall (when we're standing) and have decent horizontal dispersion...

Cheers,
Jeff[/QUOTE]


As the resident Vandersteen nut I suppose I should say something. Yes, the sweet spot is small but spectacular. I find that it is good for two people sitting side by side. However I can expand it by listening in 4 channel stereo mode ( the rears play the same as the fronts) although it puts you on the stage rather than in the audience. I too listen from another room when I am cooking or doing dishes and then I use four or five channels for extra volume. No speakers are going to provide good imaging in the next room. When I am seriously listening, two channels is all I want. If I am moving about the room, then I am doing something other than serious listening. Spatial resolution then becomes less important than good frequency response throughout the room. I submit that room treatments are the way avoid bright and dead spots.

I wanted to check out the Newforms when I was shopping but couldn't find any near me to listen to. Martin-Logans in my price range were nowhere near as good as a Vandersteen 3a sig in imaging, evenness of frequency response or frequency range.

I don't know what you have for a receiver but the low end ones that have various effect settings ("concert hall", "jazz club", "rock concert" etc.) are less useful than one like my B&K where I can choose any number of channels and whether I wish to play in a surround or stereo mode independently of the number of speakers I wish to have on. My front speakers image so well that I find the center channel degrades the image even with movies if I am in the sweet spot. If I have guests watching obviously I need all 5 channels.

You might also try some high quality satellites (Gallo?) with a good sub since the small satellites act most like a point source and should provide good imaging over a wide area. Good hunting.

 

[furrycute]

Get some planar speakers like the magnepans, huge soundstage. But you need some serious amplification to power them. Dedicated amps mandatory. Your average receiver doesn't have the juice to power them properly.