The HDTV Nightmare

[Canada North]

I have been researching HDTV for about the last three months and here is my take on the whole thing. (I am no expert audiophile, just a relatively intelligent Joe who reads a lot)

A little about my history. I moved to a house in Northern Canada two years ago and it is time to upgrade my AV equipment. Before this, I always lived in apartments in a major metropolitan area. AV equipment wasn't a priority at that time, I lived two blocks away from an IMAX theater and four blocks away from a really good THX certified theater. I now live 500 miles from the nearest theater. The 20 year old two channel stereo system just doesn't cut it any more.

Enough about me! On to HDTV!

The AV industry has painted itself into a corner!

For the last number of years the industry has been pushing HDTV without any direction and no real content to prove their technology. Until Blu-Ray or HD-DVD finally come on the market, very few of the TV's and Monitors have actually been tested to work. From what I am reading current HD devises have shown absolutely huge failure rates. Once the copy protection schemes come into play (HDCP) even more will fail. Add to this the number of high end TV's that have sold that don't have digital connections and it becomes a fiasco.

Imagine this – Two years ago you bought a top of the line 40 inch HDTV Plasma screen. It would have cost you $4000 to $6000. Now you don't have a DVI or HDMI interface on it. No HDTV content for you if it's protected with HDCP. Or you bought the $3000 High End AV Receiver with an HDMI connections. But the company hasn't implemented HDCP correctly, so it will not relay the tokens and keys correctly. Now all those features on you Receiver that you have been dying to use, just give you a blank screen. Talk about customer satisfaction!

Even if every person who is having problems with HDTV is a moron, what does that tell you about the promised one cable, plug and play solution?

What happens when the Copy Protection Breaks?

Your Encryption Keys get revoked! One day you will buy a new Blu-Ray disk and it will look at your machine and see that your unit is no longer trusted. This means somewhere around the world, someone has broken the Encryption and gotten the keys and is pirating disks. Revoking keys will slow down the pirates, but if they are using the keys used in your Blu-Ray player no more HDTV signal, maybe even no more picture. Now your lumped in with all of the criminals, but you have done nothing illegal.

How do you get your equipment working again? Knowone really knows as far as I can tell. Even if it is just a matter of hooking up a network cable and pushing a button on the device to get new keys. Now I need a high speed Internet connection and the knowledge of how to do that. I could do it, my brother could do it, my mother doesn't own a computer and only knows how put the disk in and press play on the remote control!

What is everyone else's take on this?

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

What happens when the Copy Protection Breaks?

Your Encryption Keys get revoked! One day you will buy a new Blu-Ray disk and it will look at your machine and see that your unit is no longer trusted. This means somewhere around the world, someone has broken the Encryption and gotten the keys and is pirating disks.

So far no HD devices have been announced that require an internet connection to work. If one comes onto the market: Don't buy it!. Have we learned nothing from Divix?

And not just HDMI, you'll need HDMI version 1.3. Thus ensuring almost everybody gets boned by HD. Of course most of the HDTV buying populace has no idea what HD is or how to make it work, when they buy the Blu*Ray Disk of Freddy Got Fingered and the player will only output 480i through its Component, DVI, or HDMI 1.2(or lower) output, Joe 6-Pack will not know the difference or even care. As long as the picture is big.

Then there are people like me who will wait until HD-DVD and Blu*Ray players are on the market until we buy TV's, so we know exactly what kind of connections we'll need. These problems will wwork itself eventually if HDMI 1.3 ever becomes a true standard and they stop production of consumer electronics with inferior connectors.

 

[ironlung]

What is everyone else's take on this?

This is what it must have felt like to own a color TV 10 years before Bonanza was broadcast.

I think the current state of HDTV/HDCP is a disaster and can't believe how many people waste their money on HDMI 1.1 components.

You should meet my uncle with his 50" plasma and HD cable box hooked up with RG-6. Deeeeeelightful picture.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think you are reading a lot of the most pessimistic viewpoints of potential issues that are out there... other than receivers and HDMI connectivity issues.

1. TVs, at least in the USA, have been getting, using, and dealing with HD content for 7+ years now. They have very LOW failure rates and if you are worried, you should look into televisions with better warranties, just in case.

2. Yes, analog connectivity is most definitely an issue, but only for those who didn't make themselves informed several years ago. I knew, after a bit of very short reading on projectors, that my front projector (3 years ago) was not HDCP compliant and may have issues down the road. I have yet to have a single situation where this has presented itself as an issue.

3. There are no current plans that have come to fruition that disable HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc players that have come to fruition. Copyright infringement development has definitely occurred, but none of it is in place on any product. So, making, or more often, believing any claims online about 'this is what will happen' is a foolish thing to do until you actually see the product.

4. HDMI is very reliable on a one-for-one connection between products and displays. I don't recommend HDMI enable receivers to many people, but the biggest issues people are having seem to be with satellite boxes and cable boxes - not with DVD players or receivers. The receiver and DVD manufacturers are pretty close to top notch when it comes to implementing HDMI rules to spec... cable companies? They don't care!

5. Downconversion over component will only be required if there is a downconversion token turned on within Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Warner and Sony (I believe) have both stated that they have no intention to turn the token on for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray so viewers will be able to get full 1080i/720p from their analog outputs on the new HD disc players!

My opinion? No, it is not perfect and the next year or so will really iron out some bugs. I don't believe the hoopla related to DVD was nearly what it is for HD disc players. People didn't own HD televisions when DVD came out, they had VCRs and DVD was a upgrade, at best (no recording). But, with millions of HD displays on the market now, not only do people want the players, they expect them to be perfect - right from the start. Not sure that will be the case, but the next few years should be interesting for sure.

 

[ironlung]

BMX,

Always better next year isn't it. I hope your right. I've been waiting for two years already.

 

[Mort Corey]

I agree that the cable companies are a lower form of life. When I first got my motorola HD box, I found that the HDCP handshake had problems over the DVI connection.....it said so on the screen I could work around the issue with a differenct startup sequence, but it was a pain. Ten minutes online research found the answer to be a firmware upgrade needed for the box. Called the cable company tech people and asked when they would be downloading the latest firmware.....there answer was to be sure my set was tuned to channel 3

Mort

 

[Canada North]

I think you are reading a lot of the most pessimistic viewpoints of potential issues that are out there... other than receivers and HDMI connectivity issues.

1. TVs, at least in the USA, have been getting, using, and dealing with HD content for 7+ years now. They have very LOW failure rates and if you are worried, you should look into televisions with better warranties, just in case.

2. Yes, analog connectivity is most definitely an issue, but only for those who didn't make themselves informed several years ago. I knew, after a bit of very short reading on projectors, that my front projector (3 years ago) was not HDCP compliant and may have issues down the road. I have yet to have a single situation where this has presented itself as an issue.

3. There are no current plans that have come to fruition that disable HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc players that have come to fruition. Copyright infringement development has definitely occurred, but none of it is in place on any product. So, making, or more often, believing any claims online about 'this is what will happen' is a foolish thing to do until you actually see the product.

4. HDMI is very reliable on a one-for-one connection between products and displays. I don't recommend HDMI enable receivers to many people, but the biggest issues people are having seem to be with satellite boxes and cable boxes - not with DVD players or receivers. The receiver and DVD manufacturers are pretty close to top notch when it comes to implementing HDMI rules to spec... cable companies? They don't care!

5. Downconversion over component will only be required if there is a downconversion token turned on within Blu-Ray and HD-DVD. Warner and Sony (I believe) have both stated that they have no intention to turn the token on for HD-DVD/Blu-Ray so viewers will be able to get full 1080i/720p from their analog outputs on the new HD disc players!

My opinion? No, it is not perfect and the next year or so will really iron out some bugs. I don't believe the hoopla related to DVD was nearly what it is for HD disc players. People didn't own HD televisions when DVD came out, they had VCRs and DVD was a upgrade, at best (no recording). But, with millions of HD displays on the market now, not only do people want the players, they expect them to be perfect - right from the start. Not sure that will be the case, but the next few years should be interesting for sure.

I think you are missing part of my point, when did the AV Industry (which I am just learning about), turn into the computer industry which I have worked in for years. I have always despised the computer industry for these exact same tricks.

1. Read your warranty. Chances are that there are enough clauses and codicils to make it invalid if a company wanted. Just look at the sales literature for the new Blu-Ray players on Sony's site

“Blu-ray Disc / DVD Playback - Blu-ray Disc Media/format is not universally compatible.”-This is like a toaster manufacturer telling me my toaster is not compatible with my bread?

There are to many loopholes that the manufactures can use. Then they will follow the computer companies path, It's not our TV, It's your receiver or player or cable or repeater. For the average customer this is a real and expensive nightmare.

2. Doesn't it just burn your butt that your equipment is obsolete after only three years? When I bought my TV, I bought it for at least 10 years, I make good money but it's not like buying the a new toaster. That would be like buying a car and 2 years down the road they reformulate the gasoline so it doesn't work with the car. When did we become such a throw away society? I think the people on this forum are much more well informed than Joe Average. Last year in December, I asked a sales rep if the TV on display had an HDMI connection, his response was “Oh you don't need that, it will be years before those becomes standard” This is the guy Joe Average is listening to.

3. Time will tell, but the ability is built into the HDCP specification.

4. Again time will tell. There are not enough devises on the market to say if this is true or not.

5. You actually trust Sony? The people that brought you the Trojan Rootkit. I could see them not using the token on the first movies released, but wait until the big blockbuster moneymakers. The studios will not give up on the copy protection schemes that easily. Who cares if someone copies the Fifth Element Blu-Ray, but they will sing a different tune when it Spiderman III.

What ironlung says is a great piece of irony “Always better next year isn't it. I hope your right. I've been waiting for two years already.” Next years model is always better that this year's and I accept that. The washing machine I bought two years ago is not as good as the newer models, but my two year old washing machine still gets my cloths clean, has all the features I need, is compatible with my electrical system and water system. It will last twenty years or so. Is it to much to ask that sterio equipment be relevent for more than three years?

This is really a problem of how they have implimented HDTV, HDMI and HDCP. This reminds me of the computer gaming industry that shipped games that did not work right out of the box. "Game crashes ... Call Tech Support... Its the integrated sound card... Run to store buy Sound Blaster$$$... Game crashes ... Call Tech Support... Update drivers... Game crashes ... Call Tech Support... Its your motherboard BIOS... Update BIOS... Just to find out that the game never worked ... BUY XBOX )

 

[BMXTRIX]

I obviously can't say what the future will hold and HDMI is a new format as is HD discs. So, as with the first generation HD boxes, there will be bugs to work out and some issues that arrise. I don't distrust Sony the way others so happily do - and I can happily live with the knowledge that I can only go component between my projector and my HD disc player. I was an informed consumer who made a specific decision based on my budget at that time - I have no regrets.

Is my projector worthless because it can't handle HDCP? No! Not at all... Is your receiver worthless because it can't play DTS-HD or Dolby HD? Of course not! It just misses out on some of the newer stuff. Some must have it all, right now, and have it all be perfect, and those are the people who get screwed. Other people make claims about how all this equipment, which doesn't even exist yet, doesn't work. How can it not work if it doesn't even exist? Some people don't do research, then blame the industry when the product they buy doesn't live up to their unrealistic, and often cheap budgeted, expectations.

If product matters - than READ THE WARRANTY - and expect coverage for what is there - and don't expect it for what isn't.

Buy equipment that meets the needs of what you will be doing to your level of satisfaction. If you want 1080p - and you want a display that ACCEPTS 1080p, then do your homework and buy one. Don't bother complaining that 99% of 1080p displays don't accept it (not that anyone has in this thread) - just do the homework and be well informed.

The Internet is such a place for people to whine about everything that is wrong, when most of the issues are with a lack of learning about the product and technology that is out there. The convergience of the computer industry and A/V happenned several years ago - people unaware of this are well behind the times. MP3, MPEG2, MPEG4, AAC, DTS, Dolby Digital, auto setup, LCD, DLP, LCoS, scalers, scan converters, DCDi, etc., etc., etc. This is the world we live in - so we either do research and avoid the bumps in the road, or we buy blindly and complain about blatantly obvious pitfalls that become us.

Why? - Just wait and see what transpires with HD discs. If you must buy now, get a solid 720p display that you know works and has a good HDMI input on it that has been tested out for a few months. That's what I'd do to protect my investment. Most of all - relax, it's supposed to be fun.

 

[mfabien]

I bought an HDTV in late 2002, a CRT RPTV which displays HD in beautiful 1080i, and I love it.

I bought a SA8000HD STB/DVR and it changed the way I look at TV. I can record up to 20 hours of HD, and I love it.

I bought Energy speakers and a Yamaha RX-V540 use Video switching only for the VCR. I then bought a SVS PB12 ISD sub, and I love my audio system.

Have there been problems, sure:

The TV has a DVI input that cannot do a handshake with the SA8000HD in part because Toshiba used HDCP version 1.0 for the DVI and Scientific Atlanta cannot find a solution for these brands of TV's with DVI version 1.0.

Am I freaking out? No.

- The use of the broadcast Flag is delayed because the Appeals Court ruled that the FCC does not have the power to impose devices, such as a digital input, in the manufacturing of TVs and cannot impact OTA signals with a broadcast Flag. But I do expect Congress to legislate new powers for the FCC.
- Once the legislation gets done, a broadcaster will be required to give a 30 day advance notice of its intention to downrez a non compliant connection (Component). If I get impacted in Canada with that (and that is not sure at all, at this point), then I may lose HD for one program or movie in a blue moon. I expect the Flag to be rarely used.

As for HD DVD, my DVI input could very well work with an HDMI/DVI cable. In fact my DVI is said to work with a SA3250HD STB. It seems that the difficulty is getting it to work with a DVR (because it's a recording device? maybe).

So my main enjoyment in life has been HDTV and my sound system. I have not had any miserable moments since 2002 and don't expect to have some in the future.

 

[ironlung]

I have to wait

I have done my homework. The one thing I assumed was there would be more content in HD. The networks continue to produce new shows in SD. All that I read on this site and others tells me to wait. The wonderful world of HD has been right aroud the corner for 7 years. Two years ago I took the plunge and am still waiting for content.

I purchased a HDTV with HDMI 1.1 the TV's highest resolution is 1080i and that is what the HDMI's max input is. I have a polk LSi front 3 setup. I need something to go between them.

I need a reciever that is not already obsolete. I can't get my brain around spending 1500-2000(or more) on a reciever that is already out of date. That is what people with the current crop of HDMI recievers have done. I already have an obsolete pro-logic reciever. I don't think a 8-10 year life is to much to ask.

I know the manufacturers would like me to blow 10 grand yearly and the cable co would like to charge 50 cents per keystroke on the remote. I'll ditch the hobby if that's what it comes to.

I hope to get more than a few years use out of my HT equiptment. I make good money but HT equiptment is still a large purchase.

I'm not happy settling for 480p widescreen(as nice as it looks).

2008 is gonna be sweet,
Ironlung

 

[Canada North]

Interesting Article on the PS3

GDC 2006: Playstation 3 without HDMI
By Humphrey Cheung
Published Friday 24th March 2006 22:14 GMT


San Jose (CA) - Last week, Sony announced to launch its Playstation 3 in November and blamed the delay on technical problems such as the ongoing work to finalize Blu-ray's copy protection technology AACS. At GDC we got a glimpse how far the PS3 may be still away from production, as Sony was not able to run the console through HDMI at 1080p resolution.

One of the reasons to buy an Xbox 360 or an upcoming Playstation 3 is the fact that Microsoft and Sony promise the beginning of a high definition gaming era - a new stage for gaming that will bringer higher-quality audio and video to the screen. On 15 March, Sony conceded that it was forced to delay the launch of its contender because a series of technology delays. The console has been touring the country for more than a year - without being actually demonstrated in detail - and it was our expectation that we will see at GDC a version that would come close to a production unit - as Sony will have to start mass-producing the console in late summer.

In fact, Sony had a few consoles on display at GDC, which were demonstrating video and audio demos. But surprisingly, these boxes were showing hardly any of the PS3's expected capability, including a screen feed that was not delivered through the HDMI interface, but through Sony's "AV MULTI OUT" connector,which has S-Video and component analog ports.

Two different PS3 prototypes were used in the demos; one was a slimmer box with dual HDMI outputs, while the other was a PC case with a video card in the back. Both devices were connected to identical Sony model television sets, which had HDMI ports.



Sony Playstation 3 graphics demo unit

All graphics demos were played on the slim boxes, while the audio demos were played on the larger PC-sized boxes. The graphics demo units were connected to the televisions via Sony's AV Multi-Out connector (black cable in photo), which is an analog connector that can split into S-Video or RCA connectors. The two HDMI ports right below the AV Multi-Out port were unused.

Of course, we were interested in why Sony did not run the units with HDMI. There may be an obvious explanation, but we received some surprising answers from Sony's staff. First, we were told that it isn't easy to get a hold of HDMI-equipped TVs. We found this to be very strange, because after all we were at the Sony booth and all the television sets had HDMI inputs. On the second try, we were told that the reason for not using HDMI was that Sony did not have any HDMI cables and that "they are difficult to find". Matt Butrovich, a former intern with Tom's Hardware and who walked the show floor with us, offered the staff to use one of the HDMI cables he actually had in his car and connect the PS3 with the TVs. Sony officials turned down the offer and we were left without seeing the demos in HD.

Somehow we feel that there was another reason for not showing the PS3 with HDMI. In fact, the explanation could be as simple as the PS3's HDMI wasn't compatible with the HDMI spec integrated in the TVs. Recently it was announced that the PS3 will use HDMI 1.3, which will use an expansion of the audio channels and offer Dolby TrueHD as well as DTS-HD. Current TVs generally use HDMI 1.1, which do not support these extensions and create significant audio noise when connected to a HDMI 1.3 device.


Audio demo unit (black cable to the bottom-right of the fan is USB)

In the end, we do not know the real reason of avoiding HDMI in the GDC demonstrations. But it certainly highlighted that Sony has still work to do - not only to finalize the AACS spec, but also to accelerate the availability to HDMI 1.3 and to educate customers that they only can run HD video and audio if they have a HDMI 1.3 capable TV.

 

[BMXTRIX]

You know, in the end of all this you either buy right now and have some questions that will go unanswered for a bit, or you wait a year for some glitches to be worked out. When HD first arrived, there were DEFINITELY glitches that needed to be worked out in both the product and the delivery.

I'm not a believer that HD content will someday be 100% of what we see, but I am hopeful... that may still be 20 years away. What I am a believer of is that HD discs will deliver to us HD whenever we want it. Movies at the highest quality. You get the choice from the beginning - 1080i output capable, or full 1080p output capable? Up to you. Plus, strong support from a lot of studios. Will it be outdated in a few years? Meh, it may be outdated in 7-10 years... maybe... perhaps probably.

Yet right now people can make themselves aware of the issues at hand which you have touched on.

1. 1080p displays and the ability to accept 1080p.
2. HDMI 1.3 not yet out/finalized/whatever - so HD audio formats aren't a part of the spec.
3. Receivers are all basically outdated on the HD audio spec.
4. 1080p & HD audio is not currently possible from HD disc players because no chip can do both... (right now)
5. HD disc players don't all do 1080p output - not that this matters.
6. HD disc players don't exist yet - ??? - so how exactly do we judge any of them?
7. List of potential issues realistically unknown with HD disc players.
8. OTA content/cable/satellite is limited. Period. But, what do you watch and what do you want in HD? If the two match up, then while it may be limited, it may be the perfect amount for you.
9. HD displays aren't necessarily a ton more expensive than their standard def counterparts. Front projection is almost cheap compared to other technologies.
10. As long as HD is passed over component video, then no current/old HD display will have issues with showing the content in full HD glory (except 1080p). This is an unknown right now, so stating what things 'will' be is just a guess, not a fact. Speculation goes both ways.

 

[ironlung]

1. 1080p displays and the ability to accept 1080p.
2. HDMI 1.3 not yet out/finalized/whatever - so HD audio formats aren't a part of the spec.
3. Receivers are all basically outdated on the HD audio spec.
4. 1080p & HD audio is not currently possible from HD disc players because no chip can do both... (right now)
5. HD disc players don't all do 1080p output - not that this matters.
6. HD disc players don't exist yet - ??? - so how exactly do we judge any of them?
7. List of potential issues realistically unknown with HD disc players.
8. OTA content/cable/satellite is limited. Period. But, what do you watch and what do you want in HD? If the two match up, then while it may be limited, it may be the perfect amount for you.
9. HD displays aren't necessarily a ton more expensive than their standard def counterparts. Front projection is almost cheap compared to other technologies.
10. As long as HD is passed over component video, then no current/old HD display will have issues with showing the content in full HD glory (except 1080p). This is an unknown right now, so stating what things 'will' be is just a guess, not a fact. Speculation goes both ways.

This list should be a sticky in the Display and reciever forums.

 

[pikers]

You know, in the end of all this you either buy right now and have some questions that will go unanswered for a bit, or you wait a year for some glitches to be worked out. When HD first arrived, there were DEFINITELY glitches that needed to be worked out in both the product and the delivery.

I'm not a believer that HD content will someday be 100% of what we see, but I am hopeful... that may still be 20 years away. What I am a believer of is that HD discs will deliver to us HD whenever we want it. Movies at the highest quality. You get the choice from the beginning - 1080i output capable, or full 1080p output capable? Up to you. Plus, strong support from a lot of studios. Will it be outdated in a few years? Meh, it may be outdated in 7-10 years... maybe... perhaps probably.

Yet right now people can make themselves aware of the issues at hand which you have touched on.

1. 1080p displays and the ability to accept 1080p.
2. HDMI 1.3 not yet out/finalized/whatever - so HD audio formats aren't a part of the spec.
3. Receivers are all basically outdated on the HD audio spec.
4. 1080p & HD audio is not currently possible from HD disc players because no chip can do both... (right now)
5. HD disc players don't all do 1080p output - not that this matters.
6. HD disc players don't exist yet - ??? - so how exactly do we judge any of them?
7. List of potential issues realistically unknown with HD disc players.
8. OTA content/cable/satellite is limited. Period. But, what do you watch and what do you want in HD? If the two match up, then while it may be limited, it may be the perfect amount for you.
9. HD displays aren't necessarily a ton more expensive than their standard def counterparts. Front projection is almost cheap compared to other technologies.
10. As long as HD is passed over component video, then no current/old HD display will have issues with showing the content in full HD glory (except 1080p). This is an unknown right now, so stating what things 'will' be is just a guess, not a fact. Speculation goes both ways.

The solution is to find those HD applicaions that are of interest to you, and utilize them to maximize your enjoyment. I for one will not let the copyright Nazis dictate my usage patterns.

Frankly, Sat-based HD, Iscan HD-based DVD and Xbox is loads of fun, all on my 2003-vintage non-HDCP CRT. For awhile, I toyed with the whole HTPC thing. All of these things would not be possible without an HD set. Now, ask me if I care about said compliance. I love my setup.